Ninjago's Tiering Problem

[Minaaaa]

What are they affecting then? The Time of the planet?

They are affecting time over the ninjago continent not universally. they show this in the show man

 

[Lloydblitzed]

They are affecting time over the ninjago continent not universally. they show this in the show man

No, and this was never shown ↓ Time Manip Range is Uni by default

• By default, the range of time manipulation is considered universal unless explicitly demonstrated or specified otherwise. In the case of time manipulation through gravity manipulation, it will be presumed to have a localized range instead of a universal one unless explicitly stated or demonstrated. Similarly, when utilizing pocket dimensions for time manipulation, it will not be presumed to possess a universal range unless explicitly indicated or shown.

 

[Minaaaa]

No, and this was never shown ↓

It was literally demonstrated it was only across the ninjago planet or even lower

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It was literally demonstrated it was only across the ninjago planet or even lower

U got no proof it only limited to the planet

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It was literally demonstrated it was only across the ninjago planet or even lower

Warping the very fabric of Space-Time does not limit to the planet, this was never implied at any point of the show

 

[Minaaaa]

U got no proof it only limited to the planet

The fact that the only places affected were on the planet?

Warping the very fabric of Space-Time does not limit to the planet, this was never implied at any point of the show

This doesnt mean anything. They simply dont have the range to affect an entire universe. Them having that range would, once again, negate needing to use the Iron Doom. They were only affecting time across ninjago

Returning Ninjago to its pre-modern glory doesn't sound like manipulating the whole universe and the fact we never see them manipulate anything on this level.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The fact that the only places affected were on the planet?

This doesn't prove anything, the only time blades that don't have Universal range are those bubble blast based time blade such as the Red Timeblade and the Blue one

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This doesnt mean anything. They simply dont have the range to affect an entire universe. Them having that range would, once again, negate needing to use the Iron Doom. They were only affecting time across ninjago

No it wouldn't at all They wouldn't even be able to time travel without Uni range in the first place

 

[Minaaaa]

No it wouldn't at all They wouldn't even be able to time travel without Uni range in the first place

what? Time travel doesnt require uni+ range or any range for that matter. If the Time Twins can manipulate time on a universal scale, why didnt they just do that? why did they even build the iron doom? why did they even travel back in time in the first place? Using your reasoning makes Acronix and Crux look stupid

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Funny enough, most scans that "supports the fact the GWs combined" actually goes against you
1st scan simply talks about Garmadon making the MW, its completly unrelated to the feat (keywords: Garmadon finally seizes all four Golden Weapons)
2nd scan supports what Zane said about needed the GWs power to destroy the MW, also never mentions the GWs were destroyed, only the MW
3rd scan said the GWs collided with each other. Collided means to strike one another or one against the other with a forceful impact; come into violent contact; crash
4th scan also implies they combined their ELEMENTAL POWERS (shown here) and destroyed the MW

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Why did they even build the iron doom?

To easly overpower the EMs from the past so no one could stand in their way anymore and to time travel?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This feat occurs in the newest series, Dragons Rising, when the ninja’s elemental powers can close them, Thus scaling them to Low 2-C (Uni+). But, this feat makes completely zero sense even when the series is not taken into account. Firstly, let’s examine the statements used. These statements here and here have stated the mergequakes to be able to destroy the world, while this is correct, the wording used doesn’t scale to anyone. They always mention mergequakes (Notice the use of an S, showing plurality) will destroy the world, not a SINGULAR MERGEQUAKE, which is what the ninja close. With this, the feat should already be invalid but there is more to make the feat totally invalid. Secondly, we have Zane’s statement in Season 1 Episode 11, Temple of the Dragon Cores, of Dragons Rising. A singular mergequake on it’s own does not destroy the universe, but a culmination of hundreds if not thousands happening at the same time does. Thirdly, The ninja still wouldn’t scale to it as a single mergequake doesn’t fit the criteria for Tier 2, Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale., a single mergequake has never been shown affecting the entire universe, or even a significant portion of the universe.

All ur doing here is proving multiple mergequakes can affect the entire multiverse, nothing ever refutes or debunk the fact they are stopping 2 Universes from trying to merge at the same space

 

[Minaaaa]

Funny enough, most scans that "supports the fact the GWs combined" actually goes against you
1st scan simply talks about Garmadon making the MW, its completly unrelated to the feat (keywords: Garmadon finally seizes all four Golden Weapons)

You ignored the last sentence of the scan, which is why i brough it up.

2nd scan supports what Zane said about needed the GWs power to destroy the MW, also never mentions the GWs were destroyed, only the MW

again, last sentence.

3rd scan said the GWs collided with each other. Collided means to strike one another or one against the other with a forceful impact; come into violent contact; crash

They collided with each other and fused together.... cmon man this isnt rocket science

4th scan also implies they combined their ELEMENTAL POWERS (shown here) and destroyed the MW

"They combine their elemental abilities and cause the the golden weapons to shoot off into the night sky" Meaning they combined. We clearly see them combine with each along with the various other scans saying they did.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

You ignored the last sentence of the scan, which is why i brough it up.

Again, implies the GWs sent it into space

again, last sentence.

Ye...it implies the GWs sent it into space, lol

They collided with each other and fused together.... cmon man this isnt rocket science

Never proven

"They combine their elemental abilities and cause the the golden weapons to shoot off into the night sky" Meaning they combined. We clearly see them combine with each along with the various other scans saying they did.

Not at all lol

 

[Minaaaa]

All ur doing here is proving multiple mergequakes can affect the entire multiverse, nothing ever refutes or debunk the fact they are stopping 2 Universes from trying to merge at the same space

The Merged Realms arent some 2-C structure, theyre just one big Low 2-C structure.
Does a single mergequake affect the realm on a universal scale? no
Is a single mergequake even significant in size? no
The first point completely disqualifies it from Low 2-C. Mergequakes are just cracks/tears in the universe. closing one doesnt grant AP, Unless they are of significant size. Please stop with this "Theyre stopping them from sharing the same space" nonsense, they literally never state thats what closing them does

 

[Minaaaa]

Again, implies the GWs sent it into space

Ye...it implies the GWs sent it into space, lol

Never said they didn't, youre arguing against a point no one made.

Never proven

All of the scans in the OP

Not at all lol

Dude we clearly see them combine with each other.

And given other statements ive posted, which you ignored, it makes it all too obvious

Also you never debunked the fact the feat its inconsistent. You said there are feats better than the star feat, which you havent shown. You tried to use the time twins and failed. Any more feats? if not, then its inconsistent

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The Merged Realms arent some 2-C structure, theyre just one big Low 2-C structure.

no, The Ethereal Divide is part of it as well and still seperate the space-times themselves, and the Ninjas have to use gates to access other Realms

Does a single mergequake affect the realm on a universal scale? no

Stated twice it affect the Realms

Is a single mergequake even significant in size? no

Size is irrlevant

The first point completely disqualifies it from Low 2-C. Mergequakes are just cracks/tears in the universe. closing one doesnt grant AP, Unless they are of significant size. Please stop with this "Theyre stopping them from sharing the same space" nonsense,

What are Realms doing then? Dancing around on the same spot?

they literally never state thats what closing them does

Lol x2
Lol x3

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Never said they didn't, youre arguing against a point no one made.

All of the scans in the OP

Dude we clearly see them combine with each other.

And given other statements ive posted, which you ignored, it makes it all too obvious

Ur saying a weapon with only 2 AP feats has an outlier, completly ignoring the rules as well

Also you never debunked the fact the feat its inconsistent.

I did earlier, but you couldn't debunk this at all

The GWs Star feat is legit one of its only 2 AP feats, everything u said before is basic Life Manip and Portal Creation hax that don't relate to his AP, they don't count

Again here, the GWs only has 2 AP feats: The Star one and the Ninjago Island Creation, further filling this point

The weapons don't break anything at all, weaker beings were shown to not be able to hold their power



Nothing from the narrative supports the GWs couldn't create a star, oh and funny enough, the GWs were visually shown when FSM was stated to have created entire Realms, Realms with their own Sun, stars, Moons and Celestial bodies, so this can actually imply the GWs can do more then just mere spawn Islands

 

[Minaaaa]

no, The Ethereal Divide is part of it as well and still seperate the space-times themselves, and the Ninjas have to use gates to access other Realms

This is just false. the Merge combined all the realms together, the space-times included.

Stated twice it affect the Realms

Mergequakes plural, not a singular one

Size is irrlevant

Its not. If you close a space-time rift the size of your kitchen, are you universal?

What are Realms doing then? Dancing around on the same spot?

They are unstable, which is why the mergequakes happen.

Lol x2
Lol x3

Shown me a statment where they say, "closing a mergequake stops the realms from sharing the same are" or a similar statement

 

[Minaaaa]

Ur saying a weapon with only 2 AP feats has an outlier, completly ignoring the rules as well

Dude, the feat is an outlier for the series, nothing else like it happens. Are there any other character who pull off a similar or higher feat than creating a star? if so, show them. If not, its an outlier. and what rules have been ignored?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This is just false. the Merge combined all the realms together, the space-times included.

0 proof of that + debunked earlier

Mergequakes plural, not a singular one

They are referring to a single one, use common grammar

Its not. If you close a space-time rift the size of your kitchen, are you universal?

They are unstable, which is why the mergequakes happen.

Its not a mere rift in space time, its the movement of 2 realms trying to share a same space

Shown me a statment where they say, "closing a mergequake stops the realms from sharing the same are" or a similar statement

The 2 statements clearly implies it. Realms are trying to share a same space when the mergequake occurs, u are directly stopping the realms from sharing a same space when closing a mergequake

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dude, the feat is an outlier for the series, nothing else like it happens. Are there any other character who pull off a similar or higher feat than creating a star? if so, show them. If not, its an outlier. and what rules have been ignored?

You don't know what outliers mean at all, and I love how ur not reading the rules completly

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dude, the feat is an outlier for the series, nothing else like it happens. Are there any other character who pull off a similar or higher feat than creating a star? if so, show them. If not, its an outlier. and what rules have been ignored?

I love how multiple 2-C feats happens in the same season, and I also like how 6-A rating is the scaling of the GWs individually, not ALTOGHETER

 

[Minaaaa]

0 proof of that + debunked earlier

So The Merge merged all the objects in the realm together?

They are referring to a single one, use common grammar

They never say a single mergequake effects the entire realm.

Its not a mere rift in space time, its the movement of 2 realms trying to share a same space

Thats what a Mergequake is, a crack in reality. It doesnt scale to anything unless its of a significant size or a single one is affecting the entire universe

The 2 statements clearly implies it. Realms are trying to share a same space when the mergequake occurs, u are directly stopping the realms from sharing a same space when closing a mergequake

If the realm's space merged, then it would completely disregard you previous point of their space-times not merging. Again, AoE is not significant enough. Ur arguing closing a mergequake that is barely the size of Cloud Kingdom makes you Low 2-C. Do you hear yourself?

 

[Minaaaa]

I love how multiple 2-C feats happens in the same season, and I also like how 6-A rating is the scaling of the GWs individually, not ALTOGHETER

2-C feats only come from the source dragons, overlord and fsm. Which no one in the main cast in their normal state scale to

 

[Lloydblitzed]

They never say a single mergequake effects the entire realm.

"Mergequakes are like aftershocks, places where the Realms are unstable, where 2 Realms try to share the same area"
Multiple places are unstable, and in each of these places, 2 Realms try to share the same area. LMAO

 

[Minaaaa]

You don't know what outliers mean at all, and I love how ur not reading the rules completly

Dude, the feat literally fits the standard. You making up an arbitrary rule of "The feats arent ap so they dont count" is completly irrelevant

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

These are the strongest characters in the series, this is why the outlier page clearly outlines their NORMAL levels of power.

It never says “God Tier is an exception”. And do you really want some mid-Tier characters that scale from a single feat? And once again, I debunked ALL of your outlier points (even those you haven’t used).

They arent affecting time of the whole realm. Again, why would they need the Iron Doom if they can already do this? We see only ninjago changing, not the entire realm

Read Time Manipulation page, range is assumed to be Universal unless there is clear demonstration it is not. Also, their ultimate goal was not to destroy the Realm. I know VSBW is about power-scaling, but you should look into the plot, motives and narrative too. It simply doesn’t make sense for them to destroy it. Yes they DO HAVE POWER to destroy Universal Level+ structure, but they simply don’t use it throughout the series.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

2-C feats only come from the source dragons, overlord and fsm. Which no one in the main cast in their normal state scale to

Lol what next? Anos doesn't scale to his Solar Eclispe feat since he did it once? Goku loose his 2-C cuz he only shook Universe 7 once? Zeno loose his low complex rating as nobody in the main cast could destroy the entire Multiverse? Let's debunk the entire wiki with your logic while your at it

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dude, the feat literally fits the standard. You making up an arbitrary rule of "The feats arent ap so they dont count" is completly irrelevant

Its not, Im actually convinced ur trolling at this point

 

[Minaaaa]

"Mergequakes are like aftershocks, places where the Realms are unstable, where 2 Realms try to share the same area"
Multiple places are unstable, and in each of these places, 2 Realms try to share the same area. LMAO

This does not indicate that stopping them stops them from sharing the same space, especially when Zane says the mergequakes were going to keep happening regardless

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Dude, the feat literally fits the standard. You making up an arbitrary rule of "The feats arent ap so they dont count" is completly irrelevant

Do you really have trouble realizing that GWs altogether lack AP feats? Is it that hard? If Garmadon said “I am going to use full power of this goddamn Megaweapon, be prepared for all might of this weapon!” and it would destroy only a wall/city/country/whatever, then yes, altogether GWs would cap at wall/city/country/whatever. But Garmadon never uses Megaweapon for such things. How should reviving Soto have anything to do with Star Level? How does stopping Ninja from winning the race have to do with Star Level? How does resurrecting that dinosaur (and accidentally making Ninjas kids) do anything with Star Level? How does going back in time do anything with Star Level? With any AP level in general?
THIS is why this is HAX, not AP, and which is why using HAX feats to debunk AP feats is simply false equivalence.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This does not indicate that stopping them stops them from sharing the same space

Let me do a simple logics equation so you have no space of refuting this:
Realms try to share the same space -> Mergequake is there
Mergequake is there being false -> Realms trying to share the same space is false.
Realms no longer try to share the same space means they demerged them. Basically, mergequake is what occurs when two Realms try to share the same space, and when you close it, then this indicated you demerged them.

especially when Zane says the mergequakes were going to keep happening regardless

Because when you close one, ANOTHER one will open up? Ever thought of that? Or do you think it is the same Mergequake coming back at different locations?..

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dude, the feat literally fits the standard. You making up an arbitrary rule of "The feats arent ap so they dont count" is completly irrelevant

Can you even name ANY AP feat from the GWs except the 2 I mentionned earlier? Oh and you said "6-A to 4-C" is a big jump, but you completly forgot the fact the 6-A rating only scales to each of the weapons INDIVIDUALLY, and the 6-A rating is a feat concerning THE STAFF OF QUAKE BY ITSELF. Your ENTIRE outlier argument is basically comparing the power of a SINGLE GW to the power of the GWs ALTOGHETER

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Again, just hax

Warping = significantly affecting LOL

It clearly says "The entierty of the structure in question". Did you not read it man?

Hmmmmm… (By default, the range of time manipulation is considered universal unless explicitly demonstrated or specified otherwise)

 

[Minaaaa]

It never says “God Tier is an exception”. And do you really want some mid-Tier characters that scale from a single feat? And once again, I debunked ALL of your outlier points (even those you haven’t used).

You havent debunked any of my outlier points.

Read Time Manipulation page, range is assumed to be Universal unless there is clear demonstration it is not. Also, their ultimate goal was not to destroy the Realm. I know VSBW is about power-scaling, but you should look into the plot, motives and narrative too. It simply doesn’t make sense for them to destroy it. Yes they DO HAVE POWER to destroy Universal Level+ structure, but they simply don’t use it throughout the series.

Dude, youre literally do not understanding what Tier 2 is. If they dont have the range nor showings that they can warp the entire universe at once, then they arent Low 2-C. simple

Do you really have trouble realizing that GWs altogether lack AP feats? Is it that hard? If Garmadon said “I am going to use full power of this goddamn Megaweapon, be prepared for all might of this weapon!” and it would destroy only a wall/city/country/whatever, then yes, altogether GWs would cap at wall/city/country/whatever. But Garmadon never uses Megaweapon for such things. How should reviving Soto have anything to do with Star Level? How does stopping Ninja from winning the race have to do with Star Level? How does resurrecting that dinosaur (and accidentally making Ninjas kids) do anything with Star Level? How does going back in time do anything with Star Level? With any AP level in general?
THIS is why this is HAX, not AP, and which is why using HAX feats to debunk AP feats is simply false equivalence.

Again, yall are just making up a non existent rule that "the feats have to be AP". Those feats clearly show the MW being a vastly lower tier compared the star creation , hence making it an outlier

 

[Minaaaa]

Lol what next? Anos doesn't scale to his Solar Eclispe feat since he did it once? Goku loose his 2-C cuz he only shook Universe 7 once? Zeno loose his low complex rating as nobody in the main cast could destroy the entire Multiverse? Let's debunk the entire wiki with your logic while your at it

Dude what are u even talking about? Both Anos and goku have higher feats than those, making them not outliers. Zeno is literally the strongest character in the series besides the grand priest what are you even arguing atp?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You havent debunked any of my outlier points.

I did, and you just showed that you don’t read my arguments.

Dude, youre literally do not understanding what Tier 2 is. If they dont have the range nor showings that they can warp the entire universe at once, then they arent Low 2-C. simple

“Can warp the very space-time” tell me rq what does that mean.
“By default, the range of time manipulation is considered universal unless explicitly demonstrated or specified otherwise” tell me rq what does that mean.

Again, yall are just making up a non existent rule that "the feats have to be AP". Those feats clearly show the MW being a vastly lower tier compared the star creation , hence making it an outlier

It does not have ANYTHING TO DO with Tier. What the actual thing did you want Garmadon to do? Revive star-sized Soto???

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dude what are u even talking about? Both Anos and goku have higher feats than those, making them not outliers. Zeno is literally the strongest character in the series besides the grand priest what are you even arguing atp?

Goku doesn't, Anos high feat is irrelevant cuz "unique feat"
Zeno has previously shown to only be able to erase sum God of Destruction and scale to them, so his Low 1-C feat is also "unique" and thus an outlier

 

[Lloydblitzed]

You havent debunked any of my outlier points.

Dude, youre literally do not understanding what Tier 2 is. If they dont have the range nor showings that they can warp the entire universe at once, then they arent Low 2-C. simple

You actually have to be kidding me, ur telling me being stated to warp space-time isn't a Uni range feat? Really?

Again, yall are just making up a non existent rule that "the feats have to be AP". Those feats clearly show the MW being a vastly lower tier compared the star creation , hence making it an outlier

Are you serious? Do you really think Life Manipulation hax contributes to the GWs having "lower tier feats" ?