Ninjago's Tiering Problem

[Minaaaa]

May be because MW is SUPPOSED to be destroyed due to time paradox solving and GWs were restored in Season 3 for Golden Master? Do a simple 2+2.

It was stated by WoG several times and it showed in the show to be a star. There are many verses that scale simply from one feat lmao.

No, it was said that he has power of Golden Weapons, rewatch. And he never twisted his words but only made their analysis.

True, the Realms merging is 2-C, demerging them should be 2-C too

• This is a literal headcanon. nothing in the series nor out of the series supports it
• i never said this. its an outlier given ninjago's feats before and after the feat
• Zane literally said "You can harness all of the elemental powers"
• If a single mergequake isnt 2-C, then they arent 2-C. Closing a mergequake is just hax. it has no relation to ap

 

[Lloydblitzed]

How did you look directly at my post and still not understand the argument.

1. MW previous showing's of power are vastly below creation a star
2. Never said this
3. Feat like the star feat never happens again, so its literally a unique incident

1.The feat being unique doesn't debunk anything, and characters has been shown consitanly to tank a similar amount of power from the star feat
2. Are u using mere abilities feats to debunk an AP feat?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

• This is a literal headcanon. nothing in the series nor out of the series supports it
• i never said this. its an outlier given ninjago's feats before and after the feat
• Zane literally said "You can harness all of the elemental powers"
• If a single mergequake isnt 2-C, then they arent 2-C. Closing a mergequake is just hax. it has no relation to ap

1. Headcanon? Why is Lloyd still alive?
2. Not an outlier
3. The GWs are connected to the Ninjas Elemental Powers....LOL
4. In no way is stopping the fusion of Low 2-C structures isn't related to AP

 

[Lloydblitzed]

1. Not my point
2. Again, misunderstanding my point

...

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was talking about it in original OP upgrade and idr why Low 2-C was kept, iirc I was ignored

I said (or at least meant) that he repeated his arguments over and over again, he did the same under first thread I sent for pages on Star Level and trued to debunk Garmadon on the second one

She.

I'll wait for more of the debate back and forth to weigh in again. For now, I agree with the OP.

 

[Minaaaa]

1.The feat being unique doesn't debunk anything, and characters has been shown consitanly to tank a similar amount of power from the star feat

Dude, read the outlier guidelines, nothing like the star feat EVER happens again in the series

2. Are u using mere abilities feats to debunk an AP feat?

If the weapon has constantly shown lower tier feats then yes it would disqualify it

1. Headcanon? Why is Lloyd still alive?

This is just, not a point. You would be arguing a completly nonsensical point that the series doesnt support. You say "The GW have to destroy the MW to fix the time paradox". I ask, why? Especially with clear statements saying the MW and GW exploded in space.

3. The GWs are connected to the Ninjas Elemental Powers....LOL

Yeah, because they match their elements... cmon man

4. In no way is stopping the fusion of Low 2-C structures isn't related to AP

See my previous posts about the mergequakes

 

[JJSliderman]

I can agree with the Oni feat going away (Oni Garmadon has 2-C scaling anyway), and neutral on the moon tea.

I agree that the ninja should scale to the star creation (albeit only 1/8 of it), but also agree it’s an outlier in the context of pre-DR, so if the site says it has to be removed on outlier basis I respect it (even if I don’t agree).

And I think Low 2-C Mergequake scaling should stay for reasons I outlined earlier.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

• This is a literal headcanon. nothing in the series nor out of the series supports it

Headcanon? Seriously? You want to say that GWs not being destroyed is headcanon? Or that MW destruction being essential to the time paradox solution?

• i never said this. its an outlier given ninjago's feats before and after the feat

It’s consistently confirmed by the show and WoG, once again

• Zane literally said "You can harness all of the elemental powers"

“That was the power of the Scythe of Earthquake. And you did it without Golden Weapons” guess what this means.

• If a single mergequake isnt 2-C, then they arent 2-C. Closing a mergequake is just hax. it has no relation to ap

A single mergequake is a result of two Realms merging. Closing a single mergequake is the same as demerging those two Realms. It is not hax at all.

 

[Minaaaa]

Headcanon? Seriously? You want to say that GWs not being destroyed is headcanon? Or that MW destruction being essential to the time paradox solution?

Im saying that the MW being destroyed and the GW not is a headcanon.

It’s consistently confirmed by the show and WoG, once again

what is?

“That was the power of the Scythe of Earthquake. And you did it without Golden Weapons” guess what this means.

the ninja literally couldnt use their elemental powers without the GW. this is literally why they had to go to the dark island. you dont even need elemental powers to use the GW

A single mergequake is a result of two Realms merging. Closing a single mergequake is the same as demerging those two Realms. It is not hax at all.

Again, a single mergequake doesnt qualify for Low 2-C.

Low 2-C: Universe level+​

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting, creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

One mergequake isn't even universal in scale

 

[JJSliderman]

Yes, but closing a merge quake is the equivalent of stopping one universe from merging into another. At worst, you can just call it a 3-A feat.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Yeah, because they match their elements... cmon man

No, because they directly harness their elemental powers

One mergequake isn't even universal in scale

Its been implied 2 times it affects the Realms

Dude, read the outlier guidelines, nothing like the star feat EVER happens again in the series

Its been shown consistanly that the ninjas can take a similar output of power, WOG supports it +with that logic, each feat that happened once in any cases is an outlier, in fact all of your outlier points are debunkable, using Life Manip and Portal Creation hax isn't going to prove its an outlier

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

From what I have read so far, I agree with everything being put back to 6A.

 

[JJSliderman]

If there has to be downgrades, I’d say Dragons Rising should stay where it is (maybe as 3-A instead of Low 2-C) and everything prior goes back to 6-A.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If there has to be downgrades, I’d say Dragons Rising should stay where it is (maybe as 3-A instead of Low 2-C)

No Realms can possibly scale below Low 2-C

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If the weapon has constantly shown lower tier feats then yes it would disqualify it

The GWs Star feat is legit one of its only 2 AP feats, everything u said before is basic Life Manip and Portal Creation hax that don't relate to his AP, they don't count

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

Again here, the GWs only has 2 AP feats: The Star one and the Ninjago Island Creation, further filling this point

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

The weapons don't break anything at all, weaker beings were shown to not be able to hold their power

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

Nothing from the narrative supports the GWs couldn't create a star, oh and funny enough, the GWs were visually shown when FSM was stated to have created entire Realms, Realms with their own Sun, stars, Moons and Celestial bodies, so this can actually imply the GWs can do more then just mere spawn Islands

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

the ninja literally couldnt use their elemental powers without the GW. this is literally why they had to go to the dark island. you dont even need elemental powers to use the GW

Because they didn't master their powers back then

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Im saying that the MW being destroyed and the GW not is a headcanon.

Both of them confirmed in the show and WoG

what is?

?

the ninja literally couldnt use their elemental powers without the GW. this is literally why they had to go to the dark island. you dont even need elemental powers to use the GW

They couldn’t due to being too much relied on them. Also they literally tanked GWs explosion and Cole could wield MW without getting erased from existence

Again, a single mergequake doesnt qualify for Low 2-C.

True, it actually qualifies for 2-C FRA that I mentioned. But you like dodging them.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Im saying that the MW being destroyed and the GW not is a headcanon.

S3 and S10 left the chat
S2 left the chat

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Dude, read the outlier guidelines, nothing like the star feat EVER happens again in the series

If the weapon has constantly shown lower tier feats then yes it would disqualify it

I hope you realize that characters/weapons/whatever do not have to display Star Level feats each time they appear on the screen. One, well-confirmed and consistently stated/explained feat is enough. The narrative doesn’t have to concentrate on powerscaling. This wiki has a lot of characters/weapons scaling to much higher tier than what they show most of their screen time.

 

[Sparkive]

I agree with the thread (in general), by the way, about mergequakes: why does anyone escalate to that?
When they talk about stopping them they mention that for some reason the elemental powers close it (literally for some reason, they never mention that they have enough strength to close it or something similar), even the new wind master can contribute to closing it despite not have training or scaling, it is pure hax (maybe hax Low 2-C/2-C but Hax),

I know how the Ninjago threads are, don't expect me to talk much more in this thread

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I hope you realize that characters/weapons/whatever do not have to display Star Level feats each time they appear on the screen. One, well-confirmed and consistently stated/explained feat is enough. The narrative doesn’t have to concentrate on powerscaling. This wiki has a lot of characters/weapons scaling to much higher tier than what they show most of their screen time.

Exactly !!! Is Goku not 2-C because he only shook Universe 7 once?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I agree with the thread (in general), by the way, about mergequakes: why does anyone escalate to that?
When they talk about stopping them they mention that for some reason the elemental powers close it (literally for some reason, they never mention that they have enough strength to close it or something similar), even the new wind master can contribute to closing it despite not have training or scaling,

Wind Master had the help of 2 guys who consistanly stops mergequakes on their own and Nya....
And again, how is stopping the fusion of Low 2-C structures hax?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

When they talk about stopping them they mention that for some reason the elemental powers close it (literally for some reason, they never mention that they have enough strength to close it or something similar), even the new wind master can contribute to closing it despite not have training or scaling, it is pure hax (maybe hax Low 2-C/2-C but Hax),

Kai stated that he closed Mergequake all by himself, Lloyd did this too. New Master of Wind (Euphrasia iirc) did not quite perform that feat all by herself, she got help. I have no clue why this should be Hax, though.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This comes from the Garmadon comics where he beats the villain of the comic, Mogra, but he simply doesn’t scale to him. Firstly, it's been stated that Mogra via drinking moon tea is stronger than Garmadon, even when Garmadon drank two moon teas. At the end of the comic, Garmadon defeats Mogra. But this feat is invalid due to Garmadon having to power up to beat him and not scaling to his normal stats, as he passed out afterwards, indicating its not his normal level of power. Secondly is Mogra’s rating being an up to rating when he shouldn't be. Mogra couldn’t handle the power of all those moon teas and thus was about to die because of it.

Garmadon in S16 was able to handle his highest amp ever without passing out, meaning he would now be able to handle that amount of power. How is Garmadon passing out matters here (Not like Garmadon was tired by the fight and didn't sleep at all for days as well as fighting Kuma who was about equal match with him right before he attacked Mogra)?
I can take a similar example DBS Goku passing out after shaking Universe 7, is he also not 2-C anymore?

 

[MrVenomYTX]

This thread will be fixing Ninjago's massive tiering problem started from this thread here and other tiering problems with some characters. (Note: Characters like the First Spinjiztu Master, Overlord, and Source Dragons are unaffected by the changes in this thread)

The Infamous Star Feat​

This “feat” has been used to make the verse 4-C, which might look legit upon first looking, but when examined thoroughly, the feat in question is invalid and I'll explain why.

Spoiler: Reasoning 1

It wasn’t the 4 weapons causing it
The reasoning used that it was the ninja scale to star is because of the Mega Weapon creating a star and the 4 Golden Weapons being equal to it in power, but this is wrong for the reasons I'll list now. Firstly, there are multiple statements that the Mega Weapon and the Golden weapons combined into one.

• Visually shown combing
• Garmadon saying the weapons collided with each other, implying they combined together
• Tommy Andreasen saying they combined
• Guidebook statement saying they combined (link to the guide, since in the previous thread it wasn’t provided)
• Ninjago website implying they combined
• Dark Island Trilogy book implying they combined
• Ninjago website again implying they combined
• Ninjago magazine implying they combined
• Ninjago website once again saying they combined

With all of these statements, it's consistent that the MW and GW combined to make the star, thus making the feat invalid to scale to the four. Before I get onto my next main point, there are some side arguments I want to address.

The GW destroyed the MW and then went into space
This argument was used in the previous thread so I want to debunk it. This is just false considering the statements I've shown above. Even if you want to say this, the weapons next showing in Rebooted, showed that the weapons were in a golden blob state, implying that they were heavily damaged because of the explosion. This means they wouldn’t scale to the full explosion if the star statement is to be believed.

Lloyd has the power of the golden weapons
This one is pretty simple and won’t take long. This statement is on his profile and is just wrong. Zane explicitly said “You can use all of the elemental powers”. Meaning he doesn’t have the GW powers, only the elemental powers associated with it. At that point in time, The ninja couldn’t use their elemental powers without the GW (Which is why they had to go to the temple of light to unlock their powers), so the scene makes sense as to why they bring up the GW.

The weapons utilize a Universal Energy System so they scale to its creation
Though they may use a UES, this is inconsistent with the series and external sources explicitly saying the Mega Weapon CAN’T destroy, only create. And when Garmadon tried to destroy a simple dragon, it couldn't destroy it, so if it can’t destroy something as simple as a dragon, destroying an entire celestial object, UES or not, is out of the question.

Spoiler: Reasoning 2

Outlier
Upon examining the feat when put into the rest of the series’ showing of power. It’s obvious this feat is an outlier so let’s go through our outlier guidelines to see if the feat fits.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
This one fits the star feat as this is a pretty big jump. We have a profile for the series rated as 6-A, which 6-A to 4-C is a pretty big jump.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
This also fits for the feat. This level of power has never been replicated in the series before the feat nor after and thus can be considered an outlier.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
The star feat is unexplained in the series but is in outside sources so this doesn’t apply here.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
The star feat breaks the previous power scaling of the series. As stated earlier, going from Tier 6 to Tier 4 is a big jump and would break the scaling of the series. It also is inconsistent with previous feats of the MW. In the series, the MW creates pirates from the past, clones of the ninja, creates a canyon, bring a beast back to life, and creates a portal through time, the star feat would be the strongest feat of the weapon EVER and doesn’t line up with the previously stated feats.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
This point is similar to the previous one so it can apply.

As shown, the feat fits with most of the conditions to qualify as an outlier and thus, shouldn’t scale to anyone.

The Mergequake Feat​

Spoiler: Reasoning

This feat occurs in the newest series, Dragons Rising, when the ninja’s elemental powers can close them, Thus scaling them to Low 2-C (Uni+). But, this feat makes completely zero sense even when the series is not taken into account. Firstly, let’s examine the statements used. These statements here and here have stated the mergequakes to be able to destroy the world, while this is correct, the wording used doesn’t scale to anyone. They always mention mergequakes (Notice the use of an S, showing plurality) will destroy the world, not a SINGULAR MERGEQUAKE, which is what the ninja close. With this, the feat should already be invalid but there is more to make the feat totally invalid. Secondly, we have Zane’s statement in Season 1 Episode 11, Temple of the Dragon Cores, of Dragons Rising. A singular mergequake on it’s own does not destroy the universe, but a culmination of hundreds if not thousands happening at the same time does. Thirdly, The ninja still wouldn’t scale to it as a single mergequake doesn’t fit the criteria for Tier 2, Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale., a single mergequake has never been shown affecting the entire universe, or even a significant portion of the universe.

Miscellaneous Feats​

These are side feats and are not the main point of the post but should be downgraded, mostly relating to Garmadon

Spoiler: Garmadon and Mogra

This comes from the Garmadon comics where he beats the villain of the comic, Mogra, but he simply doesn’t scale to him. Firstly, it's been stated that Mogra via drinking moon tea is stronger than Garmadon, even when Garmadon drank two moon teas. At the end of the comic, Garmadon defeats Mogra. But this feat is invalid due to Garmadon having to power up to beat him and not scaling to his normal stats, as he passed out afterwards, indicating its not his normal level of power. Secondly is Mogra’s rating being an up to rating when he shouldn't be. Mogra couldn’t handle the power of all those moon teas and thus was about to die because of it.

Spoiler: Garmadon and The Oni

Garmadon at his peak is currently rated 2-C, for being able to battle back the Oni Army, who can destroy the realms. The problem with this is The Oni aren’t anywhere near 2-C. The Oni don’t destroy the realms in the sense of destroying the space-time of the realm, They are slowly invading the realms with their cloud of destruction, destroying the life there so they can rule over it. It’s shown in the series that their destruction isn’t physical in nature, as in their cloud, people in ninjago weren’t destroyed, nor buildings or vehicles. Though in the previous garmadon downgrade thread, there was a statement posted from the Garmadon comics that the oni would turn it into a land of ash through unknown means but is likely their destruction cloud. This would be vastly below 2-C and the 2-C rating would have to go.

Result: Entire verse gets downgraded to 6-A since we already have a 6-A profile

Agree: @Setsuna_tenma, @KingNanaya, @Mr. Bambu

Disagree: @Lloydblitzed, @LifeRiderthe1 (Agree on Low 2-C being removed)

Neutral:

You do realise
Colliding ≠ Combining
Just because the GW’s collided with the MW dosent change

This thread will be fixing Ninjago's massive tiering problem started from this thread here and other tiering problems with some characters. (Note: Characters like the First Spinjiztu Master, Overlord, and Source Dragons are unaffected by the changes in this thread)

The Infamous Star Feat​

This “feat” has been used to make the verse 4-C, which might look legit upon first looking, but when examined thoroughly, the feat in question is invalid and I'll explain why.

Spoiler: Reasoning 1

It wasn’t the 4 weapons causing it
The reasoning used that it was the ninja scale to star is because of the Mega Weapon creating a star and the 4 Golden Weapons being equal to it in power, but this is wrong for the reasons I'll list now. Firstly, there are multiple statements that the Mega Weapon and the Golden weapons combined into one.

• Visually shown combing
• Garmadon saying the weapons collided with each other, implying they combined together
• Tommy Andreasen saying they combined
• Guidebook statement saying they combined (link to the guide, since in the previous thread it wasn’t provided)
• Ninjago website implying they combined
• Dark Island Trilogy book implying they combined
• Ninjago website again implying they combined
• Ninjago magazine implying they combined
• Ninjago website once again saying they combined

With all of these statements, it's consistent that the MW and GW combined to make the star, thus making the feat invalid to scale to the four. Before I get onto my next main point, there are some side arguments I want to address.

The GW destroyed the MW and then went into space
This argument was used in the previous thread so I want to debunk it. This is just false considering the statements I've shown above. Even if you want to say this, the weapons next showing in Rebooted, showed that the weapons were in a golden blob state, implying that they were heavily damaged because of the explosion. This means they wouldn’t scale to the full explosion if the star statement is to be believed.

Lloyd has the power of the golden weapons
This one is pretty simple and won’t take long. This statement is on his profile and is just wrong. Zane explicitly said “You can use all of the elemental powers”. Meaning he doesn’t have the GW powers, only the elemental powers associated with it. At that point in time, The ninja couldn’t use their elemental powers without the GW (Which is why they had to go to the temple of light to unlock their powers), so the scene makes sense as to why they bring up the GW.

The weapons utilize a Universal Energy System so they scale to its creation
Though they may use a UES, this is inconsistent with the series and external sources explicitly saying the Mega Weapon CAN’T destroy, only create. And when Garmadon tried to destroy a simple dragon, it couldn't destroy it, so if it can’t destroy something as simple as a dragon, destroying an entire celestial object, UES or not, is out of the question.

Spoiler: Reasoning 2

Outlier
Upon examining the feat when put into the rest of the series’ showing of power. It’s obvious this feat is an outlier so let’s go through our outlier guidelines to see if the feat fits.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
This one fits the star feat as this is a pretty big jump. We have a profile for the series rated as 6-A, which 6-A to 4-C is a pretty big jump.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
This also fits for the feat. This level of power has never been replicated in the series before the feat nor after and thus can be considered an outlier.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
The star feat is unexplained in the series but is in outside sources so this doesn’t apply here.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
The star feat breaks the previous power scaling of the series. As stated earlier, going from Tier 6 to Tier 4 is a big jump and would break the scaling of the series. It also is inconsistent with previous feats of the MW. In the series, the MW creates pirates from the past, clones of the ninja, creates a canyon, bring a beast back to life, and creates a portal through time, the star feat would be the strongest feat of the weapon EVER and doesn’t line up with the previously stated feats.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
This point is similar to the previous one so it can apply.

As shown, the feat fits with most of the conditions to qualify as an outlier and thus, shouldn’t scale to anyone.

The Mergequake Feat​

Spoiler: Reasoning

This feat occurs in the newest series, Dragons Rising, when the ninja’s elemental powers can close them, Thus scaling them to Low 2-C (Uni+). But, this feat makes completely zero sense even when the series is not taken into account. Firstly, let’s examine the statements used. These statements here and here have stated the mergequakes to be able to destroy the world, while this is correct, the wording used doesn’t scale to anyone. They always mention mergequakes (Notice the use of an S, showing plurality) will destroy the world, not a SINGULAR MERGEQUAKE, which is what the ninja close. With this, the feat should already be invalid but there is more to make the feat totally invalid. Secondly, we have Zane’s statement in Season 1 Episode 11, Temple of the Dragon Cores, of Dragons Rising. A singular mergequake on it’s own does not destroy the universe, but a culmination of hundreds if not thousands happening at the same time does. Thirdly, The ninja still wouldn’t scale to it as a single mergequake doesn’t fit the criteria for Tier 2, Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale., a single mergequake has never been shown affecting the entire universe, or even a significant portion of the universe.

Miscellaneous Feats​

These are side feats and are not the main point of the post but should be downgraded, mostly relating to Garmadon

Spoiler: Garmadon and Mogra

This comes from the Garmadon comics where he beats the villain of the comic, Mogra, but he simply doesn’t scale to him. Firstly, it's been stated that Mogra via drinking moon tea is stronger than Garmadon, even when Garmadon drank two moon teas. At the end of the comic, Garmadon defeats Mogra. But this feat is invalid due to Garmadon having to power up to beat him and not scaling to his normal stats, as he passed out afterwards, indicating its not his normal level of power. Secondly is Mogra’s rating being an up to rating when he shouldn't be. Mogra couldn’t handle the power of all those moon teas and thus was about to die because of it.

Spoiler: Garmadon and The Oni

Garmadon at his peak is currently rated 2-C, for being able to battle back the Oni Army, who can destroy the realms. The problem with this is The Oni aren’t anywhere near 2-C. The Oni don’t destroy the realms in the sense of destroying the space-time of the realm, They are slowly invading the realms with their cloud of destruction, destroying the life there so they can rule over it. It’s shown in the series that their destruction isn’t physical in nature, as in their cloud, people in ninjago weren’t destroyed, nor buildings or vehicles. Though in the previous garmadon downgrade thread, there was a statement posted from the Garmadon comics that the oni would turn it into a land of ash through unknown means but is likely their destruction cloud. This would be vastly below 2-C and the 2-C rating would have to go.

Result: Entire verse gets downgraded to 6-A since we already have a 6-A profile

Agree: @Setsuna_tenma, @KingNanaya, @Mr. Bambu

Disagree: @Lloydblitzed, @LifeRiderthe1 (Agree on Low 2-C being removed)

Neutral:

You do realise
Colliding ≠ Combining
Just because the GW’s collided with the MW dosent change

This thread will be fixing Ninjago's massive tiering problem started from this thread here and other tiering problems with some characters. (Note: Characters like the First Spinjiztu Master, Overlord, and Source Dragons are unaffected by the changes in this thread)

The Infamous Star Feat​

This “feat” has been used to make the verse 4-C, which might look legit upon first looking, but when examined thoroughly, the feat in question is invalid and I'll explain why.

Spoiler: Reasoning 1

It wasn’t the 4 weapons causing it
The reasoning used that it was the ninja scale to star is because of the Mega Weapon creating a star and the 4 Golden Weapons being equal to it in power, but this is wrong for the reasons I'll list now. Firstly, there are multiple statements that the Mega Weapon and the Golden weapons combined into one.

• Visually shown combing
• Garmadon saying the weapons collided with each other, implying they combined together
• Tommy Andreasen saying they combined
• Guidebook statement saying they combined (link to the guide, since in the previous thread it wasn’t provided)
• Ninjago website implying they combined
• Dark Island Trilogy book implying they combined
• Ninjago website again implying they combined
• Ninjago magazine implying they combined
• Ninjago website once again saying they combined

With all of these statements, it's consistent that the MW and GW combined to make the star, thus making the feat invalid to scale to the four. Before I get onto my next main point, there are some side arguments I want to address.

The GW destroyed the MW and then went into space
This argument was used in the previous thread so I want to debunk it. This is just false considering the statements I've shown above. Even if you want to say this, the weapons next showing in Rebooted, showed that the weapons were in a golden blob state, implying that they were heavily damaged because of the explosion. This means they wouldn’t scale to the full explosion if the star statement is to be believed.

Lloyd has the power of the golden weapons
This one is pretty simple and won’t take long. This statement is on his profile and is just wrong. Zane explicitly said “You can use all of the elemental powers”. Meaning he doesn’t have the GW powers, only the elemental powers associated with it. At that point in time, The ninja couldn’t use their elemental powers without the GW (Which is why they had to go to the temple of light to unlock their powers), so the scene makes sense as to why they bring up the GW.

The weapons utilize a Universal Energy System so they scale to its creation
Though they may use a UES, this is inconsistent with the series and external sources explicitly saying the Mega Weapon CAN’T destroy, only create. And when Garmadon tried to destroy a simple dragon, it couldn't destroy it, so if it can’t destroy something as simple as a dragon, destroying an entire celestial object, UES or not, is out of the question.

Spoiler: Reasoning 2

Outlier
Upon examining the feat when put into the rest of the series’ showing of power. It’s obvious this feat is an outlier so let’s go through our outlier guidelines to see if the feat fits.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
This one fits the star feat as this is a pretty big jump. We have a profile for the series rated as 6-A, which 6-A to 4-C is a pretty big jump.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
This also fits for the feat. This level of power has never been replicated in the series before the feat nor after and thus can be considered an outlier.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
The star feat is unexplained in the series but is in outside sources so this doesn’t apply here.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
The star feat breaks the previous power scaling of the series. As stated earlier, going from Tier 6 to Tier 4 is a big jump and would break the scaling of the series. It also is inconsistent with previous feats of the MW. In the series, the MW creates pirates from the past, clones of the ninja, creates a canyon, bring a beast back to life, and creates a portal through time, the star feat would be the strongest feat of the weapon EVER and doesn’t line up with the previously stated feats.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
This point is similar to the previous one so it can apply.

As shown, the feat fits with most of the conditions to qualify as an outlier and thus, shouldn’t scale to anyone.

The Mergequake Feat​

Spoiler: Reasoning

This feat occurs in the newest series, Dragons Rising, when the ninja’s elemental powers can close them, Thus scaling them to Low 2-C (Uni+). But, this feat makes completely zero sense even when the series is not taken into account. Firstly, let’s examine the statements used. These statements here and here have stated the mergequakes to be able to destroy the world, while this is correct, the wording used doesn’t scale to anyone. They always mention mergequakes (Notice the use of an S, showing plurality) will destroy the world, not a SINGULAR MERGEQUAKE, which is what the ninja close. With this, the feat should already be invalid but there is more to make the feat totally invalid. Secondly, we have Zane’s statement in Season 1 Episode 11, Temple of the Dragon Cores, of Dragons Rising. A singular mergequake on it’s own does not destroy the universe, but a culmination of hundreds if not thousands happening at the same time does. Thirdly, The ninja still wouldn’t scale to it as a single mergequake doesn’t fit the criteria for Tier 2, Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale., a single mergequake has never been shown affecting the entire universe, or even a significant portion of the universe.

Miscellaneous Feats​

These are side feats and are not the main point of the post but should be downgraded, mostly relating to Garmadon

Spoiler: Garmadon and Mogra

This comes from the Garmadon comics where he beats the villain of the comic, Mogra, but he simply doesn’t scale to him. Firstly, it's been stated that Mogra via drinking moon tea is stronger than Garmadon, even when Garmadon drank two moon teas. At the end of the comic, Garmadon defeats Mogra. But this feat is invalid due to Garmadon having to power up to beat him and not scaling to his normal stats, as he passed out afterwards, indicating its not his normal level of power. Secondly is Mogra’s rating being an up to rating when he shouldn't be. Mogra couldn’t handle the power of all those moon teas and thus was about to die because of it.

Spoiler: Garmadon and The Oni

Garmadon at his peak is currently rated 2-C, for being able to battle back the Oni Army, who can destroy the realms. The problem with this is The Oni aren’t anywhere near 2-C. The Oni don’t destroy the realms in the sense of destroying the space-time of the realm, They are slowly invading the realms with their cloud of destruction, destroying the life there so they can rule over it. It’s shown in the series that their destruction isn’t physical in nature, as in their cloud, people in ninjago weren’t destroyed, nor buildings or vehicles. Though in the previous garmadon downgrade thread, there was a statement posted from the Garmadon comics that the oni would turn it into a land of ash through unknown means but is likely their destruction cloud. This would be vastly below 2-C and the 2-C rating would have to go.

Result: Entire verse gets downgraded to 6-A since we already have a 6-A profile

Agree: @Setsuna_tenma, @KingNanaya, @Mr. Bambu

Disagree: @Lloydblitzed, @LifeRiderthe1 (Agree on Low 2-C being removed)

Neutral:

You do realise
Colliding ≠ Combining
Just because the GW’s collided with the MW doesn't change anything at all
And the GW’s created the MW so naturally they are equal in power
It’s that simple
And the ninjas elements are linked to the GW’s
Lloyd has access to all 4 elements which were originally the weapons power

 

[Sparkive]

Wind Master had the help of 2 guys who consistanly stops mergequakes on their own and Nya....

But you can't split Low 2-C, if she contributes even a small part then the feat is Low 2-C
In order to assume that she doesn't scale, it is assumed that affecting these mergequakes does not necessarily make you Low 2-C (which is obviously accepted by you, otherwise you wouldn't be taking her out of scaling) which gives me room to suggest (not confirm, just to suggest) that maybe it is not necessary to be Low 2-C in Ap to be able to affect the mergequakes

And again, how is stopping the fusion of Low 2-C structures hax?

I have no clue why this should be Hax, though.

Because (as far as I understand) some abilities or resistances may have their own level, in this case I am suggesting that just their limited space manipulation be Low 2-C and nothing more.
I don't like to do this, but I can link other verses as an example:

• For example Sonic in Base has some 4-D resistances
• Any High tier Toon has the ability to affect 5-D even if they are 3-D or 2-D

Well, ready, I made an exception when I came back because I don't think I didn't explain my point well, whether it's right or wrong, I'll leave it to all of you

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This thread will be fixing Ninjago's massive tiering problem started from this thread here and other tiering problems with some characters. (Note: Characters like the First Spinjiztu Master, Overlord, and Source Dragons are unaffected by the changes in this thread)

The Infamous Star Feat​

This “feat” has been used to make the verse 4-C, which might look legit upon first looking, but when examined thoroughly, the feat in question is invalid and I'll explain why.
It wasn’t the 4 weapons causing it
The reasoning used that it was the ninja scale to star is because of the Mega Weapon creating a star and the 4 Golden Weapons being equal to it in power, but this is wrong for the reasons I'll list now. Firstly, there are multiple statements that the Mega Weapon and the Golden weapons combined into one.

• Visually shown combing
• Garmadon saying the weapons collided with each other, implying they combined together
• Tommy Andreasen saying they combined
• Guidebook statement saying they combined (link to the guide, since in the previous thread it wasn’t provided)
• Ninjago website implying they combined
• Dark Island Trilogy book implying they combined
• Ninjago website again implying they combined
• Ninjago magazine implying they combined
• Ninjago website once again saying they combined

With all of these statements, it's consistent that the MW and GW combined to make the star, thus making the feat invalid to scale to the four. Before I get onto my next main point, there are some side arguments I want to address.

1.Tommy saying they combined is just him contradicting his previous post and the show
2. Garmadon stated they collided, which does not imply they were combined AT ALL, 2 different meaning
3. This doesn't mean anything, in fact the only Creation who actually scales to AP from the 4 GWs are the Ninjago Islands and the Star feat, except for that, the only other creations from the GWs are litterally Life Manip and Space-Time/Portal Creation, which doesn't affect AP

The GW destroyed the MW and then went into space
This argument was used in the previous thread so I want to debunk it. This is just false considering the statements I've shown above. Even if you want to say this, the weapons next showing in Rebooted, showed that the weapons were in a golden blob state, implying that they were heavily damaged because of the explosion. This means they wouldn’t scale to the full explosion if the star statement is to be believed.

They weren't damaged at all, they just changed shape physically and Tommy stated it only got depowered and weaker AFTER S3.

 

[Minaaaa]

I hope you realize that characters/weapons/whatever do not have to display Star Level feats each time they appear on the screen. One, well-confirmed and consistently stated/explained feat is enough. The narrative doesn’t have to concentrate on powerscaling. This wiki has a lot of characters/weapons scaling to much higher tier than what they show most of their screen time.

Dude have you not read the outlier page? I already outlined the reasons why according to those.

Garmadon in S16 was able to handle his highest amp ever without passing out, meaning he would now be able to handle that amount of power. How is Garmadon passing out matters here (Not like Garmadon was tired by the fight and didn't sleep at all for days as well as fighting Kuma who was about equal match with him right before he attacked Mogra)?
I can take a similar example DBS Goku passing out after shaking Universe 7, is he also not 2-C anymore?

Garmadon couldn't even beat mogra while they were both amped by Moon Tea, why in the world would he scale to him amped by the maximum amount?

You do realise
Colliding ≠ Combining
Just because the GW’s collided with the MW doesn't change anything at all
And the GW’s created the MW so naturally they are equal in power
It’s that simple
And the ninjas elements are linked to the GW’s
Lloyd has access to all 4 elements which were originally the weapons power

Are yall just not reading anything in the thread or not understanding the points im making? If the GW and MW collided with each other and with statements saying they combined, then they combined.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

• Any High tier Toon has the ability to affect 5-D even if they are 3-D or 2-D

Well, ready, I made an exception when I came back because I don't think I didn't explain my point well, whether it's right or wrong, I'll leave it to all of you

Doesn't apply to Ninjago, ur using a whole different verse for your reasoning

But you can't split Low 2-C, if she contributes even a small part then the feat is Low 2-C
In order to assume that she doesn't scale, it is assumed that affecting these mergequakes does not necessarily make you Low 2-C (which is obviously accepted by you, otherwise you wouldn't be taking her out of scaling) which gives me room to suggest (not confirm, just to suggest) that maybe it is not necessary to be Low 2-C in Ap to be able to affect the mergequakes,

How do you know she had no training with her powers, she was able to use them pretty well in both DR S1 against the monster and DR S2 against Cinder and the Wolf Mask army

 

[Minaaaa]

1.Tommy saying they combined is just him contradicting his previous post and the show
2. Garmadon stated they collided, which does not imply they were combined AT ALL, 2 different meaning
3. This doesn't mean anything, in fact the only Creation who actually scales to AP from the 4 GWs are the Ninjago Islands and the Star feat, except for that, the only other creations from the GWs are litterally Life Manip and Space-Time/Portal Creation, which doesn't affect AP

Are you purposfully not reading anything im posting for the sake of arguing?

1. Not only are you reading one statement over multiple, but this is one of the creators of ninjago saying they combined, along with other statements. It just looks like you are disagreeing with him for the sake of keeping the rating
2. Again, read the argument as a whole
3. This is literally my point. If the MW has shown vastly lower feats than the star feat, then the legitimacy of scaling to star should be called into question.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dude have you not read the outlier page? I already outlined the reasons why according to those.

You completly forgot the amount of AP feats the GWs has, which completly destroys your outlier point and should be takingin account as the rule says

Garmadon couldn't even beat mogra while they were both amped by Moon Tea, why in the world would he scale to him amped by the maximum amount?

Because Garmadon litterally had a boost of power at the end of the comics? That's the whole reason he scale to it

 

[Lloydblitzed]

1. This is literally my point. If the MW has shown vastly lower feats than the star feat, then the legitimacy of scaling to star should be called into question.

Those feat are unrelated to AP, so they DON'T count + Again, the weapons litterally too little feats to even consider the feat outlier as I cited before

Are you purposfully not reading anything im posting for the sake of arguing?

1. Not only are you reading one statement over multiple, but this is one of the creators of ninjago saying they combined, along with other statements. It just looks like you are disagreeing with him for the sake of keeping the rating
2. Again, read the argument as a whole

I already read the entire argument which I refuted with the Time Paradox argument which still stands...

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

Put me down as agree for removal.
The mergequake and Star level ones have bothered me for a bit, and I've unfortunately been far too busy to address them.
Solid reasoning and respectable job pointing out the problems with both Minaaaa. You also organized it well too.

This thread will be fixing Ninjago's massive tiering problem

You've done well Minaaaa.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It seems nobody takes in account the fact the Ninjas were using the GWs in the goal of destroying the MW and the fact the GWs power could still be used with its EE effects as a golden blob (1st clip), implying it wasn't actually destroyed, only physically changed

 

[Minaaaa]

You completly forgot the amount of AP feats the GWs has, which completly destroys your outlier point and should be takingin account as the rule says

This in no way destroys the outlier point. The AP feats are lower than the star feat so this still doesnt matter.

Because Garmadon litterally had a boost of power at the end of the comics? That's the whole reason he scale to it

It was literally a full power blast, which he passed out from afterwards.

Those feat are unrelated to AP, so they DON'T count + Again, the weapons litterally too little feats to even consider the feat outlier as I cited before

The weapons have plenty of feats as i listed in the OP so again, a non point.

I already read the entire argument which I refuted with the Time Paradox argument which still stands...

Ur arguing that the MW being destroyed and the GW not fixed the time paradox, no one ever says or implies is what happened. But also ur saying its the only way it can be fixed, which is also not the case

 

[Lloydblitzed]

this is literally why they had to go to the dark island. you dont even need elemental powers to use the GW

Weird, I don't see Nya being able to use the Scythe of Quakes tho

 

[Minaaaa]

It seems nobody takes in account the fact the Ninjas were using the GWs in the goal of destroying the MW and the fact the GWs power could still be used with its EE effects as a golden blob (1st clip), implying it wasn't actually destroyed, only physically changed

Again, they both merged together and blew up together in space. I outlined this already. The last point is just a semantics argument

 

[Minaaaa]

Weird, I don't see Nya being able to use the Scythe of Quakes tho

Dude we literally see samukai able to use them with no problem

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Dude have you not read the outlier page? I already outlined the reasons why according to those.

And I explained how outliers work in general, but if you want to run Outlier page, then sure:

1. Golden Weapons altogether have little-to-no AP feats in general thus this point is invalid.
2. Creating anything is nothing special or unique about Golden Weapons.
3. It is explained by the fact that the power of all four (not eight) Golden Weapons made this feat, not just one:
4. It does not break anything due to, again, having little-to-no AP feats.
5. I see no reason why this criteria fits here as it goes with narrative: it was shown that star was created by that incident, and Golden Weapons surviving also fits the narrative due to Rebooted.

Are yall just not reading anything in the thread or not understanding the points im making? If the GW and MW collided with each other and with statements saying they combined, then they combined.

Yes, and you are ignoring the fact that Megaweapon was destroyed prior to collision effectively contributing nothing to the other four Golden Weapons Creation feat. If you say that Megaweapon was not destroyed, then you are saying me Ninjas were blasting Megaweapon with Golden Weapons for nothing and that time paradox solved itself, which breaks the established narrative in Seasons 2-3. If you are saying that Megaweapon was destroyed, then what’s the problem?

 

[JJSliderman]

Dude we literally see samukai able to use them with no problem

Yet when the weapons were reforged in S10, Nya couldn’t do anything with the scythe because it was linked to Cole’s Earth power.