Ninjago's Tiering Problem

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Original AP upgrade CRT and Garmadon downgrade CRT are first that come to mind

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Could you all link me to this identical CRT that was rejected? The counter-arguments here have not suitably dismissed the claims of the OP: perhaps this other thread will.

The guy used similar argument in the CRT I linked earlier which were not accepted

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I have all the reasons its an outlier in the OP, none of these dismiss why the feat is an outlier

Ninjas consistently tank GWs, with Lloyd being stated to have their power (it was straight up said like that, OF COURSE it would have four main elements as a result), Megaweapon consistently being stated to become a Star… do basic 2+2

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I have all the reasons its an outlier in the OP, none of these dismiss why the feat is an outlier

They do lol, the ninjas consistanly scale to the power of the GWs, Samukai was always showm to be weaker than the Ninjas, Garmadon and Wu who all tanked the GWs

 

[Minaaaa]

These are not the points i made. i never said "The ninja dont scale to the weapons", what im saying is "The star feat doesn't scale to the weapons and is an outlier". I explained all the reasonings for why in the OP

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

I don't really care. There are rules to this place and you will abide by them or refrain from typing. If you can't help but lose your mind at a nascent thread by a person who ostensibly also posts upgrades to the verse, then you will be removed for breaking these rules. That is the social contract.

which rule is that?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

These are not the points i made. i never said "The ninja dont scale to the weapons", what im saying is "The star feat doesn't scale to the weapons and is an outlier". I explained all the reasonings for why in the OP

The whole Time Paradox destroys your argument mate. If the feat scaled to the 8 weapons, Lloyd wouldn't exist anymore

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

i feel i've seen minaaa post this crt before trying to do this

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I will debunk the OP later in the day with scans and why we need a disscussion rule abt it

 

[Arceus0x]

So uh I ain't got much time here but why are Mergequakes not 2-C?
Fusing 2 universes together is a 2-C feat and has been for ages. Sonic scaled to 2-C for that reason before he got his higher scaling.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

i feel i've seen minaaa post this crt before trying to do this

He tried debunk allat with nearly same arguments in the Ninjago AP upgrade CRT, and he made another CRT with the Oni Garmadon arguments

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So uh I ain't got much time here but why are Mergequakes not 2-C?
Fusing 2 universes together is a 2-C feat and has been for ages. Sonic scaled to 2-C for that reason before he got his higher scaling.

Ye we gotta rebunk it lol, this feat will also rebunk the Onis too which I'll explain later

 

[Mr. Bambu]

which rule is that?

The very first rule on the very first page members are directed towards in terms of rules, actually. Be kind.

I'm watching some movies so I won't guarantee a hasty response, I'll go through the old thread and decide if that thread has substantial bearing on this one. Until then, if all of the posts are to be disparaging, don't make them.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So uh I ain't got much time here but why are Mergequakes not 2-C?
Fusing 2 universes together is a 2-C feat and has been for ages. Sonic scaled to 2-C for that reason before he got his higher scaling.

If a single instance of a Mergequake is not 2-C (as in, it never performed a 2-C feat), then I don't think we'd scale the entire 2-C feat to it. We also can't divide it, obviously. The evidence provided to me so far hasn't adequately elaborated on how the Mergequakes work, just that they were collectively causing something resembling a 2-C feat. I don't know the context to Sonic nor do I think it's relevant if that was done in one fell swoop, rather than here where it was a great ongoing process.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This huge CRT covers up the upgrades, I will refute the OP arguments later on, also I think a disscussion rule is needed to prevent this type of thread for happening again

I was asking about the thread made by the OP that had attempted this downgrade 1:1 in the past, which was mentioned by you guys. If arguments against this had already been made to the satisfaction of the wiki, I may have looked over them and accepted them as valid.

Original AP upgrade CRT and Garmadon downgrade CRT are first that come to mind

These aren't the same thread as this. I'm asking for the duplicate thread from the past. Please provide it, since you've asserted it exists enough to render this thread completely unreasonable.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If a single instance of a Mergequake is not 2-C (as in, it never performed a 2-C feat), then I don't think we'd scale the entire 2-C feat to it. We also can't divide it, obviously. The evidence provided to me so far hasn't adequately elaborated on how the Mergequakes work, just that they were collectively causing something resembling a 2-C feat. I don't know the context to Sonic nor do I think it's relevant if that was done in one fell swoop, rather than here where it was a great ongoing process.

The feat involves 2 Uni+ sized Universes
That's baseline Low Multi

2-C: Low Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I was asking about the thread made by the OP that had attempted this downgrade 1:1 in the past, which was mentioned by you guys. If arguments against this had already been made to the satisfaction of the wiki, I may have looked over them and accepted them as valid. The upgrade thread is irrel

The Oni CRT Orange sent earlier pretty much repeats similar arguments to the Oni part of this CRT, the AP CRT was an upgrade CRT but Mim used similar argument from this CRT as an attempt to debunk the AP CRT (which failed)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Oni CRT Orange sent earlier pretty much repeats similar arguments to the Oni part of this CRT, the AP CRT was an upgrade CRT but Mim used similar argument from this CRT as an attempt to debunk the AP CRT (which failed)

It seems absurd to handwave away an entire CRT because a small part of it (the smallest, in fact) was briefly mentioned in another CRT for upgrading that bit. It certainly wouldn't warrant a discussion rule.

 

[Minaaaa]

The whole Time Paradox destroys your argument mate. If the feat scaled to the 8 weapons, Lloyd wouldn't exist anymore

How exactly? The time paradox can also be fixed by the MW going into space and blowing up with the GW. Nothing states nor contradicts that both of these things can happen.

 

[Arceus0x]

If a single instance of a Mergequake is not 2-C (as in, it never performed a 2-C feat), then I don't think we'd scale the entire 2-C feat to it. We also can't divide it, obviously. The evidence provided to me so far hasn't adequately elaborated on how the Mergequakes work, just that they were collectively causing something resembling a 2-C feat. I don't know the context to Sonic nor do I think it's relevant if that was done in one fell swoop, rather than here where it was a great ongoing process.

First minute has a decent explanation of what goes on.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

i think mergequakes can be low multi if its kinda like the Sonic one but even Sonic you can at least show stuff for 4D. though mergequakes warp the fabric of spacetime and like open holes to the realms it seems. we see the cloud kingdom for example but it doesn't seem in that scene to eat the whole realm? though for example in Db we have goku black opening a rift with the sickle of sarrow lloyd closed a rift kinda like it so wouldn't it be spacetime mani on here?
bit confusing to think about.

So uh I ain't got much time here but why are Mergequakes not 2-C?
Fusing 2 universes together is a 2-C feat and has been for ages. Sonic scaled to 2-C for that reason before he got his higher scaling.

yea its fusing all the realms into ninjago lel. its like lego dimensions with vortech trying to use the foundation plate to control all the dimensions

 

[Lloydblitzed]

How exactly? The time paradox can also be fixed by the MW going into space and blowing up with the GW. Nothing states nor contradicts that both of these things can happen.

The GWs weren't destroyed, only the MW was lol

 

[Lloydblitzed]

How exactly? The time paradox can also be fixed by the MW going into space and blowing up with the GW. Nothing states nor contradicts that both of these things can happen.

The MW, the weapon who caused the time paradox, can't fix the time paradox at all (unless destroyed)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

First minute has a decent explanation of what goes on.

A decent explanation, but not really what I was looking for in terms of exposure on how it all works. Are the mergequakes, then, indicative of these relics preventing the coalescence failing? How many mergequakes is it going to take to cause the coalescence? The coalescence appears to be explained as a natural force that is going to happen, and can only be delayed: is this accurate?

There are many minor details that would, collectively, I think substantially alter my opinion on whether this could be used. At the moment, I consider the collectiveness of the mergequakes being the most important thing: no mergequake is capable of doing the feat on its own. From what information is provided, this seems most relevant and most damning of an outright 2-C rating.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

personally i would disagree with them being 2-C because there not stated to be able to destroy the fourth dimension or like anything 4D going around "nameing conventions"

i think mergequakes can be low multi if its kinda like the Sonic one but even Sonic you can at least show stuff for 4D. though mergequakes warp the fabric of spacetime and like open holes to the realms it seems. we see the cloud kingdom for example but it doesn't seem in that scene to eat the whole realm? though for example in Db we have goku black opening a rift with the sickle of sarrow lloyd closed a rift kinda like it so wouldn't it be spacetime mani on here?
bit confusing to think about.

yea its fusing all the realms into ninjago lel. its like lego dimensions with vortech trying to use the foundation plate to control all the dimensions

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

A decent explanation, but not really what I was looking for in terms of exposure on how it all works. Are the mergequakes, then, indicative of these relics preventing the coalescence failing? How many mergequakes is it going to take to cause the coalescence? The coalescence appears to be explained as a natural force that is going to happen, and can only be delayed: is this accurate?

There are many minor details that would, collectively, I think substantially alter my opinion on whether this could be used. At the moment, I consider the collectiveness of the mergequakes being the most important thing: no mergequake is capable of doing the feat on its own. From what information is provided, this seems most relevant and most damning of an outright 2-C rating.

theres multiple mergequakes yes. (one of them lloyd closes). i think its 17 if not mistaken

 

[Lloydblitzed]

A decent explanation, but not really what I was looking for in terms of exposure on how it all works. Are the mergequakes, then, indicative of these relics preventing the coalescence failing? How many mergequakes is it going to take to cause the coalescence? The coalescence appears to be explained as a natural force that is going to happen, and can only be delayed: is this accurate?

There are many minor details that would, collectively, I think substantially alter my opinion on whether this could be used. At the moment, I consider the collectiveness of the mergequakes being the most important thing: no mergequake is capable of doing the feat on its own. From what information is provided, this seems most relevant and most damning of an outright 2-C rating.

The mergequakes in short:

2 Space-Time trying to share the same space --> Ninjas stop a mergequake --> Ninjas stop 2 Space-Time continuums from merging with each other and pull and away from each other in the same way --> Ninjas significally affected the 2 space time continuums

 

[Minaaaa]

A decent explanation, but not really what I was looking for in terms of exposure on how it all works. Are the mergequakes, then, indicative of these relics preventing the coalescence failing? How many mergequakes is it going to take to cause the coalescence? The coalescence appears to be explained as a natural force that is going to happen, and can only be delayed: is this accurate?

There are many minor details that would, collectively, I think substantially alter my opinion on whether this could be used. At the moment, I consider the collectiveness of the mergequakes being the most important thing: no mergequake is capable of doing the feat on its own. From what information is provided, this seems most relevant and most damning of an outright 2-C rating.

The Coalescence is what the characters refer to as The Merge in the show. Mergequakes are after effects of The Merge

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

the dragon cores keep the merge from happening by keeping the realms separate from one another and not smashing into one another. each realm is like its own "space" not counting netherrealm, grassland, SD world, DR S2 stuff, and overlords void realm

 

[Minaaaa]

The GWs weren't destroyed, only the MW was lol

If they all combined then both of them were destroyed (even when given statements they did combine and were both destroyed in the op). having them merge and then unmerge doesnt make sense and isnt supported by anything.

 

[LifeRiderthe1]

The mergequakes in short:

2 Space-Time trying to share the same space --> Ninjas stop a mergequake --> Ninjas stop 2 Space-Time continuums from merging with each other and pull and away from each other in the same way --> Ninjas significally affected the 2 space time continuums

lloyd used the dragon cores with Sd amp to close a merge quake though it was just effecting ninjago and another realm which is where the 2 space-time come from right? though i thought all the realms but netherrealm, grasslands and overlords void had the same time? or at least somewhat flowed linearly to one another

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Coalescence is what the characters refer to as The Merge in the show. Mergequakes are after effects of The Merge

Yeah, I know. Was explained in the video.

theres multiple mergequakes yes. (one of them lloyd closes). i think its 17 if not mistaken

Right, and based on this I don't think it's fair to scale closing one (which is a vague feat, in my estimation) to the full 2-C merge.

Like... for a more understandable comparison, instead of Mergequakes there's a machine of unstated durability that happens to also be doing a 2-C feat of merging timelines. It doesn't necessarily have to have 2-C durability, nor would it strictly take 2-C AP to stop it from working. This is (partially) why I don't think it's a great 2-C feat. Nothing is given to suggest it would take a 2-C feat to stop an individual Mergequake- this combined with the cumulative nature of 'em makes it seem off, imo.

When people were mentioning that this was all debunked before, I had hoped that they would link to some prior attempt at this that adequately explained why we're assuming Mergequakes take 2-C AP to nullify. This wasn't produced, so my stance is back to agreeing with the downgrade for now, since nothing in this thread (so far) offers a substantial debunk, either imo.

 

[JJSliderman]

The thing about the merge quakes is that the show pretty adequately explains them.
In the first episode, it’s established that mergequakes occur because one realm/universe is attempting to merge with another. So by closing the mergequake, the ninja also stop one universe from moving into another, which is a low 2-C feat accepted for something like, the Sol Emeralds moving Blaze’s universe into Sonic’s. The event that Zane is referring to in the back half of season 1, with hundreds of mergequakes, is an event involving the destruction of all 17 realms, which is a far higher scale than a single quake. Regular ninja scale to the former, Source Dragon and SD amped Lloyd scales to the latter

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

So uh I ain't got much time here but why are Mergequakes not 2-C?
Fusing 2 universes together is a 2-C feat and has been for ages. Sonic scaled to 2-C for that reason before he got his higher scaling.

I was talking about it in original OP upgrade and idr why Low 2-C was kept, iirc I was ignored

These aren't the same thread as this. I'm asking for the duplicate thread from the past. Please provide it, since you've asserted it exists enough to render this thread completely unreasonable.

I said (or at least meant) that he repeated his arguments over and over again, he did the same under first thread I sent for pages on Star Level and trued to debunk Garmadon on the second one

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The Ninjas powers are directly connected to the GWs, and it would make sense that they get a jump in power in Pilots because they litterally gain access to their Elemental Powers with the GWs. Zane speciffically stated that they needed to destroy the MW by using the GWs power. The GWs obviously survived, while the MW was completly vaporized out of existance and cancelled out the Time Paradox. This clearly implies the GWs destroyed the MW, thus making the Star feat valid either way. If MW was destroyed then GWs should have been destroyed too. If MW was not destroyed then no time paradox solving. Not to mention Lloyd being stated multiple times to hold the powers of the GWs. Garmadon also implies the MW was destroyed by the GWs

As for the Onis scaling to the physical contents of the Universe, they were able to defeat the Firstbourn. The Firstbourn is stated by WOG to be stronger then Matriach, who scales to Lloyd since she is strong enough to empower DR Lloyd, who scale to the Mergequakes, so they would be at minimum Low 2-C

 

[Minaaaa]

None of these disprove my original points so lets go through them,

The Ninjas powers are directly connected to the GWs, and it would make sense that they get a jump in power in Pilots because they litterally gain access to their Elemental Powers with the GWs.

This literally has nothing to do with my argument.

Zane speciffically stated that they needed to destroy the MW by using the GWs power. The GWs obviously survived, while the MW was completly vaporized out of existance and cancelled out the Time Paradox. This clearly implies the GWs destroyed the MW, thus making the Star feat valid either way. If MW was destroyed then GWs should have been destroyed too. If MW was not destroyed then no time paradox solving.

Not only does this not refute any of my points, but where did it ever say the mega weapon was vaporized while the golden weapons survived? How does this make any sense? The weapons defused after merging with the MW to destroy it? This makes zero sense. Even if u still try and argue that it was the 4 weapons, its still an outlier. None of the points of it being an outlier have been countered

Not to mention Lloyd being stated multiple times to hold the powers of the GWs. Garmadon also implies the MW was destroyed by the GWs

Lloyd was explicitly stated to have the ELEMENTAL POWERS and you're, once again, misinterpreting Garmadon's statement and twisting his words

As for the Onis scaling to the physical contents of the Universe, they were able to defeat the Firstbourn. The Firstbourn is stated by WOG to be stronger then Matriach, who scales to Lloyd since she is strong enough to empower DR Lloyd, who scale to the Mergequakes, so they would be at minimum Low 2-C

This point doesnt matter as a single mergequake isnt Low 2-C to begin with

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The weapons utilize a Universal Energy System so they scale to its creation
Though they may use a UES, this is inconsistent with the series and external sources explicitly saying the Mega Weapon CAN’T destroy, only create. And when Garmadon tried to destroy a simple dragon, it couldn't destroy it, so if it can’t destroy something as simple as a dragon, destroying an entire celestial object, UES or not, is out of the question.
[/SPOILER]

Spoiler: Reasoning 2

Outlier
Upon examining the feat when put into the rest of the series’ showing of power. It’s obvious this feat is an outlier so let’s go through our outlier guidelines to see if the feat fits.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
This one fits the star feat as this is a pretty big jump. We have a profile for the series rated as 6-A, which 6-A to 4-C is a pretty big jump.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
This also fits for the feat. This level of power has never been replicated in the series before the feat nor after and thus can be considered an outlier.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
The star feat is unexplained in the series but is in outside sources so this doesn’t apply here.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
The star feat breaks the previous power scaling of the series. As stated earlier, going from Tier 6 to Tier 4 is a big jump and would break the scaling of the series. It also is inconsistent with previous feats of the MW. In the series, the MW creates pirates from the past, clones of the ninja, creates a canyon, bring a beast back to life, and creates a portal through time, the star feat would be the strongest feat of the weapon EVER and doesn’t line up with the previously stated feats.

1. How is Life Manip hax and Space-Time Manip hax downgrading the weapons AP?
2. The Star feat is visually shown in the series
3. Unique type of incident? All Ninjas tanked a GWs level of power (from Lloyd) in S7, Wu and Garmadon tanks the GWs, Kai fights on par with Garmadon with the GWs, Lloyd stated to be the only Ninja strong enough to face Garmadon, who scales to the GWs and fights on par with him
4.The 6-A profile casually got neg diffed by Garmadon, who already tanked the GWs at the time, and the same 6-A profile got beaten by Wu + Garmadon before.
5. Just because it can't destroy doesn't even mean anything lmao

Its very far from being an outlier

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

where did it ever say the mega weapon was vaporized while the golden weapons survived? How does this make any sense? The weapons defused after merging with the MW to destroy it? This makes zero sense.

May be because MW is SUPPOSED to be destroyed due to time paradox solving and GWs were restored in Season 3 for Golden Master? Do a simple 2+2.

Even if u still try and argue that it was the 4 weapons, its still an outlier. None of the points of it being an outlier have been countered

It was stated by WoG several times and it showed in the show to be a star. There are many verses that scale simply from one feat lmao.

Lloyd was explicitly stated to have the ELEMENTAL POWERS and you're, once again, misinterpreting Garmadon's statement and twisting his words

No, it was said that he has power of Golden Weapons, rewatch. And he never twisted his words but only made their analysis.

This point doesnt matter as a single mergequake isnt Low 2-C to begin with

True, the Realms merging is 2-C, demerging them should be 2-C too

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This point doesnt matter as a single mergequake isnt Low 2-C to begin with

It is, your points isn't even a anti feat to start with

Lloyd was explicitly stated to have the ELEMENTAL POWERS and you're, once again, misinterpreting Garmadon's statement and twisting his words

The Ninjas elemental powers directly scale to the GWs as the GWs only helps them harness their power, and your completly skipping the "that was the power of the Staff of Quakes" statement

Not only does this not refute any of my points, but where did it ever say the mega weapon was vaporized while the golden weapons survived? How does this make any sense? The weapons defused after merging with the MW to destroy it? This makes zero sense. Even if u still try and argue that it was the 4 weapons, its still an outlier. None of the points of it being an outlier have been countered

It all makes sense, if the MW wasn't vaporized, Lloyd would be dead...

 

[Minaaaa]

How did you look directly at my post and still not understand the argument.

1. How is Life Manip hax and Space-Time Manip hax downgrading the weapons AP?
2. The Star feat is visually shown in the series
3. Unique type of incident? All Ninjas tanked a GWs level of power (from Lloyd) in S7, Wu and Garmadon tanks the GWs, Kai fights on par with Garmadon with the GWs, Lloyd stated to be the only Ninja strong enough to face Garmadon, who scales to the GWs and fights on par with him
4.The 6-A profile casually got neg diffed by Garmadon, who already tanked the GWs at the time, and the same 6-A profile got beaten by Wu + Garmadon before.
5. Just because it can't destroy doesn't even mean anything lmao

Its very far from being an outlier

1. MW previous showing's of power are vastly below creation a star
2. Never said this
3. Feat like the star feat never happens again, so its literally a unique incident
4. Not my point
5. Again, misunderstanding my point