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This thread will be fixing Ninjago's massive tiering problem started from this thread here and other tiering problems with some characters. (Note: Characters like the First Spinjiztu Master, Overlord, and Source Dragons are unaffected by the changes in this thread)
Result: Entire verse gets downgraded to 6-A since we already have a 6-A profile
Agree: @Setsuna_tenma, @KingNanaya, @Mr. Bambu, @Robespierre_Isidore, @Sparkive, @Overlord_Darkness (Neutral on 4-C)
Disagree: @Lloydblitzed, @LifeRiderthe1 (Agree on Low 2-C being removed), @TheOrangeGuy09, @JJSliderman (Agree on Oni scaling, neutral on moon tea), @Baabasaplar95, @DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral:
The Infamous Star Feat
This “feat” has been used to make the verse 4-C, which might look legit upon first looking, but when examined thoroughly, the feat in question is invalid and I'll explain why.It wasn’t the 4 weapons causing it
The reasoning used that it was the ninja scale to star is because of the Mega Weapon creating a star and the 4 Golden Weapons being equal to it in power, but this is wrong for the reasons I'll list now. Firstly, there are multiple statements that the Mega Weapon and the Golden weapons combined into one.
The GW destroyed the MW and then went into space
This argument was used in the previous thread so I want to debunk it. This is just false considering the statements I've shown above. Even if you want to say this, the weapons next showing in Rebooted, showed that the weapons were in a golden blob state, implying that they were heavily damaged because of the explosion. This means they wouldn’t scale to the full explosion if the star statement is to be believed.
Lloyd has the power of the golden weapons
This one is pretty simple and won’t take long. This statement is on his profile and is just wrong. Zane explicitly said “You can use all of the elemental powers”. Meaning he doesn’t have the GW powers, only the elemental powers associated with it. At that point in time, The ninja couldn’t use their elemental powers without the GW (Which is why they had to go to the temple of light to unlock their powers), so the scene makes sense as to why they bring up the GW.
The weapons utilize a Universal Energy System so they scale to its creation
Though they may use a UES, this is inconsistent with the series and external sources explicitly saying the Mega Weapon CAN’T destroy, only create. And when Garmadon tried to destroy a simple dragon, it couldn't destroy it, so if it can’t destroy something as simple as a dragon, destroying an entire celestial object, UES or not, is out of the question.
The reasoning used that it was the ninja scale to star is because of the Mega Weapon creating a star and the 4 Golden Weapons being equal to it in power, but this is wrong for the reasons I'll list now. Firstly, there are multiple statements that the Mega Weapon and the Golden weapons combined into one.
- Visually shown combing
- Garmadon saying the weapons collided with each other, implying they combined together
- Tommy Andreasen saying they combined
- Guidebook statement saying they combined (link to the guide, since in the previous thread it wasn’t provided)
- Ninjago website implying they combined
- Dark Island Trilogy book implying they combined
- Ninjago website again implying they combined
- Ninjago magazine implying they combined
- Ninjago website once again saying they combined
The GW destroyed the MW and then went into space
This argument was used in the previous thread so I want to debunk it. This is just false considering the statements I've shown above. Even if you want to say this, the weapons next showing in Rebooted, showed that the weapons were in a golden blob state, implying that they were heavily damaged because of the explosion. This means they wouldn’t scale to the full explosion if the star statement is to be believed.
Lloyd has the power of the golden weapons
This one is pretty simple and won’t take long. This statement is on his profile and is just wrong. Zane explicitly said “You can use all of the elemental powers”. Meaning he doesn’t have the GW powers, only the elemental powers associated with it. At that point in time, The ninja couldn’t use their elemental powers without the GW (Which is why they had to go to the temple of light to unlock their powers), so the scene makes sense as to why they bring up the GW.
The weapons utilize a Universal Energy System so they scale to its creation
Though they may use a UES, this is inconsistent with the series and external sources explicitly saying the Mega Weapon CAN’T destroy, only create. And when Garmadon tried to destroy a simple dragon, it couldn't destroy it, so if it can’t destroy something as simple as a dragon, destroying an entire celestial object, UES or not, is out of the question.
Outlier
Upon examining the feat when put into the rest of the series’ showing of power. It’s obvious this feat is an outlier so let’s go through our outlier guidelines to see if the feat fits.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
This one fits the star feat as this is a pretty big jump. We have a profile for the series rated as 6-A, which 6-A to 4-C is a pretty big jump.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
This also fits for the feat. This level of power has never been replicated in the series before the feat nor after and thus can be considered an outlier.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
The star feat is unexplained in the series but is in outside sources so this doesn’t apply here.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
The star feat breaks the previous power scaling of the series. As stated earlier, going from Tier 6 to Tier 4 is a big jump and would break the scaling of the series. It also is inconsistent with previous feats of the MW. In the series, the MW creates pirates from the past, clones of the ninja, creates a canyon, bring a beast back to life, and creates a portal through time, the star feat would be the strongest feat of the weapon EVER and doesn’t line up with the previously stated feats.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
This point is similar to the previous one so it can apply.
As shown, the feat fits with most of the conditions to qualify as an outlier and thus, shouldn’t scale to anyone.
Upon examining the feat when put into the rest of the series’ showing of power. It’s obvious this feat is an outlier so let’s go through our outlier guidelines to see if the feat fits.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
This one fits the star feat as this is a pretty big jump. We have a profile for the series rated as 6-A, which 6-A to 4-C is a pretty big jump.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
This also fits for the feat. This level of power has never been replicated in the series before the feat nor after and thus can be considered an outlier.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
The star feat is unexplained in the series but is in outside sources so this doesn’t apply here.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
The star feat breaks the previous power scaling of the series. As stated earlier, going from Tier 6 to Tier 4 is a big jump and would break the scaling of the series. It also is inconsistent with previous feats of the MW. In the series, the MW creates pirates from the past, clones of the ninja, creates a canyon, bring a beast back to life, and creates a portal through time, the star feat would be the strongest feat of the weapon EVER and doesn’t line up with the previously stated feats.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
This point is similar to the previous one so it can apply.
As shown, the feat fits with most of the conditions to qualify as an outlier and thus, shouldn’t scale to anyone.
The Mergequake Feat
This feat occurs in the newest series, Dragons Rising, when the ninja’s elemental powers can close them, Thus scaling them to Low 2-C (Uni+). But, this feat makes completely zero sense even when the series is not taken into account. Firstly, let’s examine the statements used. These statements here and here have stated the mergequakes to be able to destroy the world, while this is correct, the wording used doesn’t scale to anyone. They always mention mergequakes (Notice the use of an S, showing plurality) will destroy the world, not a SINGULAR MERGEQUAKE, which is what the ninja close. With this, the feat should already be invalid but there is more to make the feat totally invalid. Secondly, we have Zane’s statement in Season 1 Episode 11, Temple of the Dragon Cores, of Dragons Rising. A singular mergequake on it’s own does not destroy the universe, but a culmination of hundreds if not thousands happening at the same time does. Thirdly, The ninja still wouldn’t scale to it as a single mergequake doesn’t fit the criteria for Tier 2, Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting,[1] creating, and/or destroying an area of space qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale., a single mergequake has never been shown affecting the entire universe, or even a significant portion of the universe.
Miscellaneous Feats
These are side feats and are not the main point of the post but should be downgraded, mostly relating to GarmadonThis comes from the Garmadon comics where he beats the villain of the comic, Mogra, but he simply doesn’t scale to him. Firstly, it's been stated that Mogra via drinking moon tea is stronger than Garmadon, even when Garmadon drank two moon teas. At the end of the comic, Garmadon defeats Mogra. But this feat is invalid due to Garmadon having to power up to beat him and not scaling to his normal stats, as he passed out afterwards, indicating its not his normal level of power. Secondly is Mogra’s rating being an up to rating when he shouldn't be. Mogra couldn’t handle the power of all those moon teas and thus was about to die because of it.
Garmadon at his peak is currently rated 2-C, for being able to battle back the Oni Army, who can destroy the realms. The problem with this is The Oni aren’t anywhere near 2-C. The Oni don’t destroy the realms in the sense of destroying the space-time of the realm, They are slowly invading the realms with their cloud of destruction, destroying the life there so they can rule over it. It’s shown in the series that their destruction isn’t physical in nature, as in their cloud, people in ninjago weren’t destroyed, nor buildings or vehicles. Though in the previous garmadon downgrade thread, there was a statement posted from the Garmadon comics that the oni would turn it into a land of ash through unknown means but is likely their destruction cloud. This would be vastly below 2-C and the 2-C rating would have to go.
Result: Entire verse gets downgraded to 6-A since we already have a 6-A profile
Agree: @Setsuna_tenma, @KingNanaya, @Mr. Bambu, @Robespierre_Isidore, @Sparkive, @Overlord_Darkness (Neutral on 4-C)
Disagree: @Lloydblitzed, @LifeRiderthe1 (Agree on Low 2-C being removed), @TheOrangeGuy09, @JJSliderman (Agree on Oni scaling, neutral on moon tea), @Baabasaplar95, @DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral:
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