Ninjago Tier 2 Downgrade

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Nope. You just made up a connection that was never stated and was in fact contradicted.

Also dismissed by another argument by "hYpErBoLe" although I made it clear why it isn't, and also ignored Overlord_Darkness argument. That's a sign of clear incompetence.

 

[Minaaaa]

Nope. You just made up a connection that was never stated and was in fact contradicted.

contradicted by what? even the show itself supports this

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

contradicted by what? even the show itself supports this

Season 2, Season 3 and Crystalized. You just made an assumption that one causes another due to the fact that one would precede another. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc, simple.

 

[Minaaaa]

This isnt an assumption tho? its directly implied, his plan in crystalized was to get the ninja's powers so he could corrupt them.
No elemental powers = no one could have the powers to oppose him. Thus letting darkness win and the balance is no more.
I dont see why this explanation is invalid.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This isnt an assumption tho? its directly implied, his plan in crystalized was to get the ninja's powers so he could corrupt them.
No elemental powers = no one could have the powers to oppose him. Thus letting darkness win and the balance is no more.
I dont see why this explanation is invalid.

EP are not linked to the Balance in any way, and create imbalance, you do need to attack on of the sides of the Balance. FSM and his power (which is mainly Golden Power/Creation) is what's actually linked to the Balance

Season 2, Season 3 and Crystalized. You just made an assumption that one causes another due to the fact that one would precede another. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc, simple.

Just wait for staff at this point

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This isnt an assumption tho?

It is.

its directly implied, his plan in crystalized was to get the ninja's powers so he could corrupt them.

He does it by corrupting Ninjas. He did same stuff in Season 2, Balance was fine. You’re just making stuff up.

No elemental powers = no one could have the powers to oppose him. Thus letting darkness win and the balance is no more.

Balance was never destroyed due to one-sided victories.

I dont see why this explanation is invalid.

It is because you just assume cause-effect relationship. This is just your own headcanon, you do not provide any actual evidence.

Just wait for staff at this point

Fair enough lol

 

[FinePoint]

It seems to me that 2-C Overlord is pretty evident, but that the degree to which he is 2-C might be inflated.

For example, in the linked blog there is this:

A shadow by definition also means a copy/replica of something. Prime Empire thus fufill this critera to be considered a full fledged Universal+ space:

This is some really bad logic which I simply can't get behind.
The blog then cites 17 universes as the maximum, which is what's listed on his profile, but it appears to me that some of those layers have far worse justification than others.

Ultimately though, it seems pretty clear that he scales above the Ultimate Spinjitzu Master who is definitely 2-C.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It seems to me that 2-C Overlord is pretty evident, but that the degree to which he is 2-C might be inflated.

For example, in the linked blog there is this:

This is some really bad logic which I simply can't get behind.
The blog then cites 17 universes as the maximum, which is what's listed on his profile, but it appears to me that some of those layers have far worse justification than others.

Ultimately though, it seems pretty clear that he scales above the Ultimate Spinjitzu Master who is definitely 2-C.

Which justifications of the blog do you agree with then?

 

[Minaaaa]

Overlord and everyone else being 2-C (lower into it) due to the FSM creating realms is fine with me

 

[FinePoint]

Which justifications of the blog do you agree with then?

The part which seems extremely clear and objective to me is the scaling from FSM, who definitely created multiple universes.
So, 'way 3', I suppose.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It seems to me that 2-C Overlord is pretty evident, but that the degree to which he is 2-C might be inflated.

For example, in the linked blog there is this:

This is some really bad logic which I simply can't get behind.
The blog then cites 17 universes as the maximum, which is what's listed on his profile, but it appears to me that some of those layers have far worse justification than others.

What about my another argument about that Overlord was going to destroy everything from the first page? (I will copy and paste it)


Lloyd and Harumi were afraid that Overlord was going to destroy “everything”. The reason it does not apply to Ninjago only is due to the fact that Harumi is actually fine with Overlord’s offer (regardless of whether it is his true intention or not) of destroying Balance and permanently setting all of the Realms into the darkness. Thus meaning that “destroy everything” > “all of Realms in Darkness”, so assuming that he is capable of destroying all of the Realms is fair given the narrative.

Past Harumi: You — you're the Overlord!

Past Overlord: I have had many names. Dark Lord. Golden Master. Crystal King. And yes, Overlord.

Past Harumi: I can't serve you. You'll destroy everything.

Past Overlord: Destruction comes from conflict, from the eternal struggle between light and dark. I will end that struggle. If you serve me, I will destroy the Balance and end the conflict once and for all. There will be peace in the dark.

Past Harumi: I will serve you.

Source: Ninjago; Crystalized: A Sinister Shadow.

Also, the reason why Balance affects all of the Realms:

Khanjikhan: As you know, the Sixteen Realms are interconnected and the balance affects us all. When one falls, another falls apart. Every action has a consequence.

Source: Ninjago: Masters of Spinjitzu; Season 6 Episode 3: Enkrypted


Basically: “Destroy everything” > destroy the Balance = put all of the Realms into the permanent darkness.


On the other hand, there were only 15-16 Realms at that point. Just to note, downgrading to that number is fine by me, but not really any lower.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The part which seems extremely clear and objective to me is the scaling from FSM, who definitely created multiple universes.
So, 'way 3', I suppose.

Would the main one work as well?
aka this:

So, in Dark Island Trilogy, Clouse wanted to use Dark Matter to disrupt the Balance. However, Wu warned him that doing so could destroy the world, and even all the Realms (This clearly indicates he is referring to the Planet of Ninjago AND the entirety of the Realms, not only the lands). This feat would be Environnemental Destruction for Clouse, but it would directly scale to the Overlord. Firstly, its implied Dark Matter comes from Overlord himself. Secondly, Overlord also states that Dark Matter is made of concentrated evil, which should scale to him as he was stated numerous times to be the source of all evil/evil itself, meaning he should be the source of Dark Matter as well. Additionally, its been visually shown that Dark Matter was taking over the entirety Ninjago and was in the process of destroying it, its dark energy also corrupting the Temple of Light which keept the Balance intact, indicating Overlord's powers are used to perform that Realm destruction feat. This puts all of Overlord forms at 15 Universe into Low Multiverse level (And it also scales to FSM since he's equal to him and could've fought him for eternity)

 

[Minaaaa]

Overlord and everyone else being 2-C (lower into it) due to the FSM creating realms is fine with me

changed the op for everyone to scale to the FSM feat of creating realms, which by the footage is 4 realms

 

[FinePoint]

Would the main one work as well?
aka this:

Probably, but it's more indirect, so it's harder for me to say with certainty where exactly it places them.

In short, "disrupting the balance" is a bit vague, and might not require the full 2-C power.
It sounds more like triggering a chain reaction.
It's still a 2-C feat, by nature, which is also supported by it taking over Ninjago- but for all I know it's only baseline.

That is to say: yes, it's also proof of 2-C, but I think the scaling from FSM more objectively places him above baseline, whereas the degree of 2-C in this case is debatable.
Aka: they're definitely 4 universes due to FSM, but to place them at 15 from this I would say it's more like a "possibly" or "likely."

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Probably, but it's more indirect, so it's harder for me to say with certainty where exactly it places them.

In short, "disrupting the balance" is a bit vague, and might not require the full 2-C power.
It sounds more like triggering a chain reaction.
It's still a 2-C feat, by nature, which is also supported by it taking over Ninjago- but for all I know it's only baseline.

That is to say: yes, it's also proof of 2-C, but I think the scaling from FSM more objectively places him above baseline, whereas the degree of 2-C in this case is debatable.
Aka: they're definitely 4 universes due to FSM, but to place them at 15 from this I would say it's more like a "possibly" or "probably."

Irc Overlord is part of it, and that Balance affects the Realms, so in some way it scales to him.

But if u don't agree with that too, then we are gonna go with Option 2 (at least 2-C, likely far higher)

 

[FinePoint]

Irc Overlord is part of it, and that Balance affects the Realms, so in some way it scales to him.

But if u don't agree with that too, then we are gonna go with Option 2 (at least 2-C, likely far higher)

I think that's a great compromise.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I think that's a great compromise.

Ok, ig this can be closed

 

[FinePoint]

Well, the changes should be applied first, and perhaps we should wait for one more staff member.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Well, the changes should be applied first,

Alright, will do

and perhaps we should wait for one more staff member.

Isn't 2 enough? (Well technically DDM said no to any changes so we prob do need a 3rd voice)

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I think that's a great compromise.

What about Conceptual Manip

 

[Minaaaa]

I think that's a great compromise.

im fine with this

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

What about Conceptual Manip

I think that CM should be limited 'cause it comes from Overlord's basic Darkness powers (which is why CM in Spirit Form key), but he can use it only if he has physical form or vessel and this thing should be mentioned in profile imo.

 

[Minaaaa]

bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I think that CM should be limited 'cause it comes from Overlord's basic Darkness powers (which is why CM in Spirit Form key), but he can use it only if he has physical form or vessel and this thing should be mentioned in profile imo.

I did not get the reasoning

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I did not get the reasoning

Without "limited" CM in Spirit Form key should act even then, when Overlord has no physical form (which is not true), thats the reason. Overlord can use CM only when he obtains vessel in the world

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Without "limited" CM in Spirit Form key should act even then, when Overlord has no physical form (which is not true), thats the reason. Overlord can use CM only when he obtains vessel in the world

Technically it is CK and other forms (besides Digiverse) who should have CM, Spirit Form should not have it at all

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Without "limited" CM in Spirit Form key should act even then, when Overlord has no physical form (which is not true), thats the reason. Overlord can use CM only when he obtains vessel in the world

So it isn't limited, it just has to be added to his physical forms instead

 

[REX9097]

Technically it is CK and other forms (besides Digiverse) who should have CM, Spirit Form should not have it at all

The Digiverse was never in its physical form, as Pixel says it needed USM's power to return to its physical form, and when USM destroyed its original form, The Overlord returned to his spirit form, and infected the Ninjago City computer network.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The Digiverse was never in its physical form, as Pixel says it needed USM's power to return to its physical form, and when USM destroyed its original form, The Overlord returned to his spirit form, and infected the Ninjago City computer network.

That’s why I said besides Digiverse.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

So it isn't limited, it just has to be added to his physical forms instead

I mean CM is one of basic Overlord's powers which should be in Spirit Form key for default with Limited condition (as well as Darkness Manipulation). Physical forms should have it without Limited.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I mean CM is one of basic Overlord's powers which should be in Spirit Form key for default with Limited condition (as well as Darkness Manipulation). Physical forms should have it without Limited.

Ah ok

 

[Minaaaa]

Bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

What is being bumped if changes have been applied?
Like, you got what you wanted, downgrader

 

[Minaaaa]

Ah i didnt know this can be closed now ig