Ninjago Tier 2 Downgrade

[Minaaaa]

I was saving this until after I finished the normal tiering, but since it looks like it's not ending anytime soon, Ill just start this thread.

As with other parts of the verse’s tiering, Ninjago’s tier 2 scaling has issues which I will address in this thread.

Spoiler: Overlord Balance Scaling

Overlord destroyed the balance
While i did initially agree with this point, looking back on other factors, this point is invalid. First, We get this statement from The Overlord that he can destroy the balance. At first, this might seem like a Tier 2 feat, but let’s examine HOW he does it. As stated by Harumi about the balance

Harumi: I'm sorry, Lloyd. The only way this will ever end is for one side of the balance to win. And you're just not strong enough.

This leads into the next point on what The Overlord actually wanted to do

Wu: How could I have been such a fool? The Overlord doesn't want to destroy you. He wants to corrupt the powers of Creation!

Now, this is an INDIRECT means of “destroying” The Balance and not affecting it directly. The Overlord would corrupt the Golden Weapons, therefore shifting the balance over to darkness.

Dark Island
The next one comes from the Dark Island Trilogy, This feat comes from dark matter (the overlord’s essence) causing the balance to be destroyed. This, again, is an indirect means of accomplishing this. Clouse specifically had to use dark matter on the Temple of Light to achieve this and not affect the balance directly. This will tie into the next point.

Spoiler: The Balance Itself

While The Balance is a multiversal force over the realms, I’ll explain why anything to do with it isnt tier 2. First, we have the balance statement from ninjago skybound. While this may seem like tier 2, statements from dragon’s rising disprove Djinjago’s universe being destroyed but rather, the land that’s inside it.

Spoiler: Actual Tier 2

Now, We are gonna get into a Tier 2 feat that they actually scale to. This comes from Dragon’s Rising, where it was stated that The First Spinjitzu Master created multiple realms. While originally, it was ambiguous if he created the land or entire realms, the writer of Dragons Rising (Doc Wyatt), confirmed it was full realms. While this is good, but as our creation feats standard says “Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.” We have no idea if he created these realms all at once, or one at a time.

Summary

• The following characters get their rating changed to “At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C 2-C (Four Universes)” (The First Spinjitzu Master, Ultimate Spinjitzu Master & Golden Oni Lloyd, Dragon Form-Golden Master-Crystal King & Peak Overlord, Oni Form Garmadon and The Stone Army)
• Clouse gets his 2-C rating removed
• The Overlord gets his conceptual manipulation removed

Agree: @Robo432343, @DaReaperMan, @FinePoint

Neutral:

Disagree: @TheOrangeGuy09, @REX9097, @Lloydblitzed, @DarkDragonMedeus, @GarrixianXD, @Overlord_Darkness

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

In the DR we see visually he creates them all at the same time. Nothing indicates otherwise.

Also, Lloyd and Harumi were afraid that Overlord was going to destroy “everything”. The reason it does not apply to Ninjago only is due to the fact that Harumi is actually fine with Overlord’s offer (regardless of whether it is his true intention or not) of destroying Balance and permanently setting all of the Realms into the darkness. Thus meaning that “destroy everything” > “all of Realms in Darkness”, so assuming that he is capable of destroying all of the Realms is fair given the narrative.

Past Harumi: You — you're the Overlord!

Past Overlord: I have had many names. Dark Lord. Golden Master. Crystal King. And yes, Overlord.

Past Harumi: I can't serve you. You'll destroy everything.

Past Overlord: Destruction comes from conflict, from the eternal struggle between light and dark. I will end that struggle. If you serve me, I will destroy the Balance and end the conflict once and for all. There will be peace in the dark.

Past Harumi: I will serve you.

Source: Ninjago; Crystalized: A Sinister Shadow.

Also, the reason why Balance affects all of the Realms:

Khanjikhan: As you know, the Sixteen Realms are interconnected and the balance affects us all. When one falls, another falls apart. Every action has a consequence.

Source: Ninjago: Masters of Spinjitzu; Season 6 Episode 3: Enkrypted


Basically: “Destroy everything” > destroy the Balance = put all of the Realms into the permanent darkness. Also visually FSM created all of his Realms at once.

Disagreed.

 

[Minaaaa]

In the DR we see visually he creates them all at the same time. Nothing indicates otherwise.

No, its just showing he created other realms. not that he created them at the same time.

and i literally addressed everything else in the post

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Just noticed that you were not only downgrading FSM and Overlord.

Djinjago clearly was destroyed. Arrakore says that all what is left is that little sand. Its space-time should have been destroyed the same way the Cursed Realm was destroyed — that was whole narrative of Season 6 Djinjago destruction. Not only that, but you use vague statements from Doc Wyatt which do not directly state that Djinjago exists. He could have been easily not even reading the question because at that point everyone just spammed with “that Realm too?” and he may have also referred to the little sand Arrakore had. Moreover, it goes completely against the narrative of Season 5, 6 and etc.

Clouse got Environmental Destruction, not direct AP. Read what Environmental Destruction is.

Disagreed on that too.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

No, its just showing he created other realms. not that he created them at the same time.

Visually, all of the Realms are created at once. I see no reason to assume he created them one-by-one.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

and i literally addressed everything else in the post

You did not address “destroy everything” statement in the OP. You addressed that him being capable of destroying Balance is false (which I also disagree with, he wanted to corrupt the Elements of Creation but I don’t see how that disproves his another statement AT ALL). Previous one-sides wins of good or darkness did not destroy it and gave a chance for another side to come back.
Overlord, however, says that once he destroys the Balance, there will be no such thing.

Also, before you pull out “Cursed Realm survived and would merge too”; the only reason it survived is because Cursed Realm is inside Preeminent and she went to Departed Realm. Djinjago has no such thing.

 

[Minaaaa]

Djinjago clearly was destroyed. Arrakore says that all what is left is that little sand. Its space-time should have been destroyed the same way the Cursed Realm was destroyed — that was whole narrative of Season 6 Djinjago destruction. Not only that, but you use vague statements from Doc Wyatt which do not directly state that Djinjago exists. He could have been easily not even reading the question because at that point everyone just spammed with “that Realm too?” and he may have also referred to the little sand Arrakore had. Moreover, it goes completely against the narrative of Season 5, 6 and etc.

Again, already addressed this in the op. Nothing says its space was destroyed unless you want to say "nothing" proves it, which it doesnt. Especially since it was affected by the merge. and saying that he could have been reffering to the sand, you and i both know that isnt what he meant

 

[Minaaaa]

You did not address “destroy everything” statement in the OP. You addressed that him being capable of destroying Balance is false (which I also disagree with, he wanted to corrupt the Elements of Creation but I don’t see how that disproves his another statement AT ALL). Previous one-sides wins of good or darkness did not destroy it and gave a chance for another side to come back.
Overlord, however, says that once he destroys the Balance, there will be no such thing.

destroying everything means nothing at all. As i said, him "Destroying" the balance is indirect as hes just corrupting the powers of creation. everything is outlined simply in the post

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Again, already addressed this in the op. Nothing says its space was destroyed unless you want to say "nothing" proves it, which it doesnt. Especially since it was affected by the merge. and saying that he could have been reffering to the sand, you and i both know that isnt what he meant

First of all, if it was only land getting destroyed, I don’t see why Arrakore would see “nothing”. He would at least see dead bodies. Also if only land was destroyed, none of Djinns would be threatened. They can literally fly and teleport. I don’t see why nothing but sand isn’t literal here. Lastly, you did not refute my arguments concerning Doc’s statements at all.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

destroying everything means nothing at all. As i said, him "Destroying" the balance is indirect as hes just corrupting the powers of creation. everything is outlined simply in the post

I already explained why destroying everything means literally here. You just ignored. Nice.
I don’t see how corrupting powers of creation does it. He literally corrupted the OG 4 in Season 2 to his side, yet the Balance did not get destroyed and Lloyd managed to get Balance back to good side.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Also, both Cursed Realm and Djinjago are no more as per WoG (which actually contributed to Season 6). No more means destroyed. Straight statements from the show and WoG who worked on Season 6 > vague statements from WoG with no support in the show/that can easily be explained without making any contradictions.

 

[Minaaaa]

First of all, if it was only land getting destroyed, I don’t see why Arrakore would see “nothing”. He would at least see dead bodies. Also if only land was destroyed, none of Djinns would be threatened. They can literally fly and teleport. I don’t see why nothing but sand isn’t literal here. Lastly, you did not refute my arguments concerning Doc’s statements at all.

This doesnt matter at all, fiction can exaggerate. A character can easily say "My planet was destroyed and nothing was left" and mean their civilization, surface or the entire planet. Unless you can prove the entire thing was destroyed, these points dont mean anything.

I already explained why destroying everything means literally here. You just ignored. Nice.
I don’t see how corrupting powers of creation does it. He literally corrupted the OG 4 in Season 2 to his side, yet the Balance did not get destroyed and Lloyd managed to get Balance back to good side.

One, nothing implies its literal, figurative language exists man. and the second part doesnt matter.

Also, both Cursed Realm and Djinjago are no more as per WoG (which actually contributed to Season 6). No more means destroyed. Straight statements from the show and WoG who worked on Season 6 > vague statements from WoG with no support in the show/that can easily be explained without making any contradictions.

How does this equal its space being destroyed? and we can easily count this information as outdated

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This doesnt matter at all, fiction can exaggerate. A character can easily say "My planet was destroyed and nothing was left" and mean their civilization, surface or the entire planet. Unless you can prove the entire thing was destroyed, these points dont mean anything.

So you just ASSUME it is a hyperbole. Great. Feat doesn’t fit your downgrading views?! Just call it a hyperbole!

One, nothing implies its literal, figurative language exists man. and the second part doesnt matter.

I explained why it is literal. You just keep ignoring arguments. I see less and less reason talking to you.

How does this equal its space being destroyed? and we can easily count this information as outdated

I already told you why both in-series and previous WoG statements it makes far more sense for the entire Realm to be destroyed. You just used vague statements from Doc that I already explained and you didn’t refute.

Great job, comrade. Keep ignoring everything and appealing to possibility.

 

[Robo432343]

I AGREE

 

[REX9097]

Disagree

 

[Minaaaa]

So you just ASSUME it is a hyperbole. Great. Feat doesn’t fit your downgrading views?! Just call it a hyperbole!

what? you do understand that figurative language exists? context is what makes these statments important, trying to remove them from the context to get a higher rating is just false. EVEN IF we were to take it super literally, it again, still wouldnt change anything as all feats relating to the balance are INDIRECT means equivalent to chain reaction feats.

I already told you why both in-series and previous WoG statements it makes far more sense for the entire Realm to be destroyed. You just used vague statements from Doc that I already explained and you didn’t refute.

You do know statements and things stated in the past can become outdated or changed right? Author statments (Or any statment for that matter) arent law and can change, which is why we dont believe the FSM creating the ninjago realm is valid anymore due to updated information. and please tell how doc's statment is vague? its the most blatent statments you can get. Do you literally want him to come out and say "yes djinjago was affected by the merge". His statment already does that well enough

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This blog explains at least 4 ways how Overlord and FSM scale to Tier 2. Clouse doesn't directly scale to the Dark Matter feat, that's why its written "up to 2-C with Environmental Destruction", with Wu litterally saying he would destroy the Realms if he disrupt the Balance. Arrakore specifically implies 3 times everything except a grain of sand was gone. WOG specifically states the Curse Realm and Djinjago are no more, and Doc Merge statement clearly refers to that grain of sand from Djinjago and the Preeminent being inside the Departed Realm being affected (as the places/guys who holds them has been Merged).


Disagree with the whole thread too, this is so bad and should've never been made

 

[Minaaaa]

1. I already addressed the dark island and balance feats in the OP
2. Prime empire doesnt matter as he already outscales this
3. This is the same as the oni's "destruction" feat. nothing implies the entire space of the realm is getting destroyed, nor does she even destroy anything in the first place. Shes just invading and turning everyone into ghosts
4. Already addressed in OP (It was literally the last part of it and in the summary. did you not read it?)
5. As of Dragons Rising, Tommy statement is outdated so this doesnt matter. and again, addressed in the OP

 

[Lloydblitzed]

1. As of Dragons Rising, Tommy statement is outdated so this doesnt matter. and again, addressed in the OP

Doc litterally stated Tommy statements are still reliable as of rn? I don't see how "there was nothing left" implies land destruction only
Your OP goes on the assumption everything you want is "hyperbole" and Show > Doc statements

1. I already addressed the dark island and balance feats in the OP

Anything related to Dark Matter directly scale to Overlord, seems like you forgot about that

1. This is the same as the oni's "destruction" feat. nothing implies the entire space of the realm is getting destroyed, nor does she even destroy anything in the first place. Shes just invading and turning everyone into ghosts

Ah yes, Ninjago character should say "Uh oh, the space-time continuum will be destroyed" to scale to a tier 2 feat

1. Already addressed in OP (It was literally the last part of it and in the summary. did you not read it?)

Like Apel said, its visually shown the Realms were created at the same time, your OP doesn't disprove it

 

[Minaaaa]

Doc litterally stated Tommy statements are still reliable as of rn? I don't see how "there was nothing left" implies land destruction only

This doesnt matter, the statement is outdated and the show and doc both show djinjago's space wasnt destroyed since it was affected by the merge.

Anything related to Dark Matter directly scale to Overlord, seems like you forgot about that

Already pointed out in OP. Read it

Ah yes, Ninjago character should say "Uh oh, the space-time continuum will be destroyed" to scale to a tier 2 feat

if nothing says or implies the entire realm is getting affected, then we cant logically assume it is getting affected.

Like Apel said, its visually shown the Realms were created at the same time, your OP doesn't disprove it

It doesn't, theyre just showing that he created multiple realms, nothing more than that

All my points are outlined clearly, i dont get how theres this much confusion

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This doesnt matter, the statement is outdated and the show and doc both show djinjago's space wasnt destroyed since it was affected by the merge.

The grain of sand was.... The show never implied only the land was destroyed

Already pointed out in OP. Read it

Your OP completly ignores that point, how does corrupting Creation = corrupting the GWs? Hell, even when the GWs were rendered powerless, the Balance was unaffected
Also, Dark Matter was stated multiple time to be able to affect the Balance, that still keeps Overlord to 2-C

if nothing says or implies the entire realm is getting affected, then we cant logically assume it is getting affected.

The same guy who said "nothing will be left" = No space-time destruction?

It doesn't, theyre just showing that he created multiple realms, nothing more than that

Why did they all spawn at once then? My point still stands

 

[Minaaaa]

Idk how many times i have to say this. Everything is in the op if youve read it, everything affecting the balance is through indirect means/chain reaction, no one scales to it.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Idk how many times i have to say this. Everything is in the op if youve read it, everything affecting the balance is through indirect means/chain reaction, no one scales to it.

Why do you keep dodging the fact Dark Matter (which is directly corrupting or shifting the balance) are litterally Overlord's powers doing? S2 clearly shows Overlord directly shifting the Balance with his Dark Matter as well, your OP doesn't disprove anything I've pointed out

 

[Arceus0x]

will read this thread more properly later but FSM's feat of creating realms does count. You see, timeframes stop mattering when you create something infinite. A Low 2-C structure is infinite and he created several, which means it still scales since infinity divided by any number is still infinity.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Idk how many times i have to say this. Everything is in the op if youve read it, everything affecting the balance is through indirect means/chain reaction, no one scales to it.

"Garmadon's terrrifying tank shoots Dark Matter, a mysterious substance that turns people evil. But Garmadon doesn't realise that upsetting the balance between light and dark will allow the Overlord to return to Ninjago. Oops ! "

Tell me where's the chain reaction here?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

will read this thread more properly later but FSM's feat of creating realms does count. You see, timeframes stop mattering when you create something infinite. A Low 2-C structure is infinite and he created several, which means it still scales since infinity divided by any number is still infinity.

You're saying its 2-C ?

 

[Arceus0x]

You're saying its 2-C ?

it's at least low 2-C

 

[Minaaaa]

"Garmadon's terrrifying tank shoots Dark Matter, a mysterious substance that turns people evil. But Garmadon doesn't realise that upsetting the balance between light and dark will allow the Overlord to return to Ninjago. Oops ! "

Tell me where's the chain reaction here?

Garmadon shooting dark matter and corrupting people, therefore making there be more dark than light is indirect

 

[Minaaaa]

it's at least low 2-C

Thats what i put in the post

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Garmadon shooting dark matter and corrupting people, therefore making there be more dark than light is indirect

Garmadon isn't corrupting the balance directly, but the Dark Matter is directly shifting the balance, and its not only corrupting people

 

[Minaaaa]

No, dark matter is corrupting people, causing there to be more dark than light, therefore shifting the balance

 

[Arceus0x]

Ok after looking again, it is definitely implied he created them at the same time. When we evaluate stuff we go off the given material and the given material shows us the realms being created at the same time, even if symbollicaly. If he created them one by one then they could've easily shown the disks representing the realms appearing one by one. It was stated he created the realms, it was shown at the same time, Occam's razor suggests that we treat it as shown and not try to imagine some downplay version of the feat unless someone actually shows us proof that they weren't created at the same time.

 

[Arceus0x]

Then we have to consider the fact that significantly affecting a structure that is above High 3-A makes you scale to it. If the dark guy does merge two halves of a realm into one dark whole then it is likely that he would scale. Now the question is - did he affect time whilst doing that, and is there any evidence.
Finally, the whole thing with destroying the balance and thus destroying all realms, as I've said before, is a chain reaction which would scale to enviromental destruction.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

No, dark matter is corrupting people, causing there to be more dark than light, therefore shifting the balance

Dark Island disprove your point and S2 has shown Dark Matter doesn't only corrupt people. Also the dark matter is the "dark" that's shifting the balance, that's pretty evident as shown in Dark Island and S2

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Finally, the whole thing with destroying the balance and thus destroying all realms, as I've said before, is a chain reaction which would scale to enviromental destruction.

It would be for Clouse, but it wouldn't for Overlord, as his own powers are the ones who's doing the destroying the Realms part

 

[Arceus0x]

It would be for Clouse, but it wouldn't for Overlord, as his own powers are the ones who's doing the destroying the Realms part

Can you prove that his abilities weren't also just using a chain reaction?

Also, remind me, does the verse have a universal energy system? (If you don't know, look it up on the wiki)

 

[Minaaaa]

Then we have to consider the fact that significantly affecting a structure that is above High 3-A makes you scale to it. If the dark guy does merge two halves of a realm into one dark whole then it is likely that he would scale. Now the question is - did he affect time whilst doing that, and is there any evidence.
Finally, the whole thing with destroying the balance and thus destroying all realms, as I've said before, is a chain reaction which would scale to enviromental destruction.

I already addressed this in the post. There's no evidence of it destroying/affecting the entire realm, only the land of it.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Can you prove that his abilities weren't also just using a chain reaction?

Clouse uses up some Dark Matter (Which is basically linked Overlord's powers) to disrupt the Temple of Light, which Wu warns would cause the destruction of the Realms. Now those Realms will be destroyed by the Dark Matter spreading everywhere. So in short: Clouse corrupt the Temple of Light ---> Inderectly starts the Destruction of the Realm by Dark Matter. Overlord scales to the Destruction of the Realms part as its his powers doing, meanwhile Clouse clearly does a chain reaction.

Also, remind me, does the verse have a universal energy system? (If you don't know, look it up on the wiki)

They do, we are making a CRT to get it accepted

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I already addressed this in the post. There's no evidence of it destroying/affecting the entire realm, only the land of it.

a Realm = a Space-Time Continuum. Its your burden to prove the land only was affected

 

[Minaaaa]

I already did in the OP...