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NiGHTS Into Dreams Conceptual Manipulation

Bobsican said:
Type 1 is very rare, usually tier 1 stuff gets it.
TYpe 2 seems to be the most fitting one here.

Anyways, if the proof has been accepted, then this can be legit, but you should summarize in the OP the exact powers that would come from this and to who (So sudden stuff being added out of nowhere doesn't become an issue).
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type 2 would usually be false platonic ideals or nigh transcendent concepts, jung's archetypes at worst could be put at type 2 but type 1 in terms of quality and accuracy is more up on the level.

it hasn't, DDM only conceded that Jung's Archetypes are evidently present in NiD going on by reading his replies, we just need experts on conceptual manipulation and knows the theories (like ultima reality), more people and a few more inputs.
 
Did it again anyways, as you used a quite... large message to explain something quite simple to ask for.
 
You don't sound like English is your native language, but then again, neither is in my case.

Please try to put stuff more clear, as basically the current ideas on the OP are a mess to understand right now, I would suggest bolding the important ideas so this can be understood far more easily.
 
I don't really know nor do I care if it's Conceptual Manipulation or whatever, but I'll just note that if it is, it's not Type 1. This type is for transcendental concepts which are actually showcased to exist on an 1-A scale; as in, not just "existing beyond the concepts of space and time" but actually transcending infinite hierarchies or provably standing beyond all extensions of the two concepts. It's just Type 2 at best.
 
Ultima Reality said:
I don't really know nor do I care if it's Conceptual Manipulation or whatever, but I'll just note that if it is, it's not Type 1. This type is for transcendental concepts which are actually showcased to exist on an 1-A scale; as in, not just "existing beyond the concepts of space and time" but actually transcending infinite hierarchies or provably standing beyond all extensions of the two concepts. It's just Type 2 at best.
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alright thanks for the input, but I have a problem now, in all due respect your proset of such an explanation has flaws

for example, your claim implies jung's archetypes are not transcendental and not on the same footing as platonic forms (which in another thread you said the two can be treated similarly), if we were to discuss this, it's not false platonic or semi transcendental, it's a narrative specifically meant to apply to the series and cosmology, it's consistent with both material and word of god.

and the "infinite hierarchies" never even touches concept manipulation and isn't any where close to being even implied a requirement https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Conceptual_Manipulation

this is why I suggested specifying such requirements more, some people among us in the wiki are dishonest when shown certain things that have made other verses applied for a upgrade while others get the short end of the stick.

you also said not just "existing beyond the concepts of space and time" when type 1 specifically explains this notion as a valid critique and qualification. and there are no "infinite hierarchies" in plato's forms or jung's archetypes.

never mind concepts of space and time would be itself what belongs to it, that's in definition "spatiotemporal"

the qualification for type 1 conncepts are legit shown in the conceptual manipulation page
Platonic_Forms.jpg


there are four types of conceptual abilities

Types
1. True Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a byproduct of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

4. Lesser Realist Concept: Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. As such, these concepts are far more vulnerable and are generally lesser when compared to all other abstract concepts. However, these concepts are truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 3, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying all sentient life (or otherwise blocking all perception) and thus ending all concepts of this level would not qualify, while directly destroying all concepts of this level and thus blocking all perception would qualify.

and you've already said jung's archetypes isn't necessary to put on conceptual manipulation because they're swayed to the direction of platonic forms and what they have.
 
That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop instinctively associating with 1-A. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not.
 
Ultima Reality said:
That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop associating with 1-A by instinct. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not.
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ahhhh I see, maybe we could discuss this somewhere? i'm oblivious to the changes happening.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree with Ultima
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yeah but now it's undeniable conceptual manip is in the works so boom baby boom! however if the page is outdated then updating it and applying the stuff I suggested ain't that hard tbh. we both seem to be at a clash whether to be type 2 or 1.
 
Ultima Reality said:
That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop instinctively associating with 1-A. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not.
Click to expand...
also my initial status that if it wasn't at best type 1 then it's type 2 at worst, type 1 seems most accurate when talking about jung's theory and plato's theory, it maybe isn't necessarily 1-A in some works of ficton but fort he most part if a verse consistently uses it as a reference of cosmology and way of life/death/purgatory with both material and word of god agreeing then that should be considered, fact is NiGHTS Into The Dreams mention the world of dreams countless times, said how they exist on the collective unconscious and function on it, the plane of dreams and the Word Of God agreeing with it and further approve it stating Holtz, Jung And Freud's works and theories apply to NiGHTS Into Dreams With NiGHTS himself/herself/itself being the archetype of the shadows, Jung's Archetypes Can Cross Plato's Forms to a near T, so type 2 possibly type 1 would suffice, if not type 2 could also work (just don't blame me if in some time everyone starts raiding wanting type 1 revisions)

again not everyone knows how Jung's Archetypes Work nor do they know how to draw lines without sounding like a total noob (and may even be)

I don't want to derail this any further but we should create a thread on updating the conceptual manipulation page, because I had to go from New York all the way to Jupiter then from there go to the moon all the way to uranus and come back because of that related stuff, I was expecting anywhere from type 2-1 conceptual manipulation anyway lower would've been unacceptable to me personally tbh.

but medeus did bring up dream manipulation and mind manipulation being in roots as well.

considering what we've seen NiGHTS, Reala And Wizeman do that's there as well.

well what do you think?
 
3 can't be the case here as it isn't exactly "individual", type 2 seems to be the best one here.
 
Bobsican said:
3 can't be the case here as it isn't exactly "individual", type 2 seems to be the best one here.
Click to expand...
actually type 1 is the best one here imo but i'd accept type 2 those two are in the bag, but type's 3-4 however is in the trashcan tbh.

everyone here has conceded jung's archetypes/collective unconscious exists in NiD

can be 3-4 type of conceptual manipulation because they are transcendental concepts

type 2 is braindead easy to come to grips with in connection as it's the next step up. i'd blindly accept this if it's available

type 1 is more the case because like plato's forms, jung's archetypes are transdual, it's >>>>> spatiotemporal, spaceless, timeless, absolute, eternal and all that good s**t.

if there's a types 2 and 1 spot available that's also good (if attainable)
 
Bobsican said:
Isn't type 1 reserved for 1-A stuff?
Click to expand...
that's what me and ultima were debating, whether it's right to instinctively place jung's eidos and plato's forms objectively as 1-A, it might not be exclusive to 1-A's but "False" and "True" Form's need to go whether it is or isn't.

@Bobsican if you read the links I gave of Jung's Archetypes you'd know that it can be treated the exact same as Platonic Forms, all links give the qualifications, heck jung even says the only difference between his archetypes nad plato's forms is one is philosophical and one isn't but their metaphysical properties are matched to a near T.

whatever concept manipulation type strongly associates with jung's archetypes/collective unconscious, that's what NiGHTS Into Dreams characters should have.
 
Ultima Reality said:
That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop instinctively associating with 1-A. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not.
Click to expand...
I am fine with if you wish to improve on the page, but you should preferably discuss the issue with other knowledgeable members regarding the issue, such as Sera EX and Assaltwaffle, first.
 
and then we can finish this thread and put down what coonceptual ability NiD actually has, also I'd suggest making a thread and include me so we can discuss some little details that could be added. it'd be inconvenient and unfitting to use something obsolete intead of the up to date.
 
Antvasima said:
Ultima Reality said:
That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop instinctively associating with 1-A. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not.
Click to expand...
I am fine with if you wish to improve on the page, but you should preferably discuss the issue with other knowledgeable members regarding the issue, such as Sera EX and Assaltwaffle, first.
Click to expand...
made this here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3807148
 
so basically we agree that NiGHTS has jung's archetypes, so it's either conceptual manipulation types 2 or 1, I said 1 but would accept 2, I argued a bit about why it's type 1 with ultima reality, and He admitted what I said is on the page but it is "outdated" so i'm kind of waiting for that to be fixed. so either connceptual manip 2 or 1 is the main conflict.

Medeus also made a previous comment that leads me to suspect this is also abstract existence, mind manipulation and dream manipulation.

that's it tbh.
 
@Assaltwaffle

Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated. You are always welcome to your old position in the staff if you should find the time and interest.
 
Antvasima said:
@Assaltwaffle
Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated. You are always welcome to your old position in the staff if you should find the time and interest.
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chill, let him get around to it, he looks busy meanwhile i'm applying for a certain college. I'm trying to get financial aid and access vr.
 
Well, I do not mean to stress him out, just say that he is always welcome if he should find time later on.
 
I appreciate the continued open offer to return to my old position, but I haven't regained a fire for VS debating that would make me want to take it back given my still-limited time. And my free time is only going to be decreasing as time goes on as grad school pushes forward.

That said, I believed I had a conversation with Ultima before about where the Jungian archetypes fall and that we agreed that it would either be Type 1 or 2, based on the context of the individual verse.

As for the page being outdated, I personally don't see it being such. While not every single view of abstract universals can be accounted for in it (unless we want TONS of types), the major ones give a framework broad to the point that essentially all others can fall into based on functionality in their respective universe.
 
Ultima Reality said he doesn't really seem to care whether or not it's conceptual manipulation but basically said, "It's definitely not type 1"
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Ultima Reality said he doesn't really seem to care whether or not it's conceptual manipulation but basically said, "It's definitely not type 1"
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which we went over why it would be and then it came to "the page is outdated". by the current state of things it'd be 2-1.

I could go and get the exact wording and quotes. overall we're going in on whether it should be type 2-1 or 1 or 2 by time this is finished, any lower is pure dishonest nonsense. I'm waiting until the conceptual manipulation page gets reviewed/updated so this set can be properly arranged. but this verse is strong on jung's, freud's and holtz's theories meshed up together, the collective unconscious and all that biz is in the cosmology, and some of the characters are actual jungian archetypes for example NiGHTS is The Archetype Of The Shadows, this is all consistently relevant to cosmology. Conceptual Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Dream Manipulation And Abstract Existence is in order.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
I appreciate the continued open offer to return to my old position, but I haven't regained a fire for VS debating that would make me want to take it back given my still-limited time. And my free time is only going to be decreasing as time goes on as grad school pushes forward.
That said, I believed I had a conversation with Ultima before about where the Jungian archetypes fall and that we agreed that it would either be Type 1 or 2, based on the context of the individual verse.

As for the page being outdated, I personally don't see it being such. While not every single view of abstract universals can be accounted for in it (unless we want TONS of types), the major ones give a framework broad to the point that essentially all others can fall into based on functionality in their respective universe.
Click to expand...
you can talk to ultima on his wall though....
 
@Assaltwaffle, Ultima & Medeus

So what do you think that we should do here?
 
Dream Manipulation and Mind Manipulation are fine to add by the looks of it. Conceptual Manipulation seems like an unsure, but Ultima did say it seemed like Type 2 at best in his first paragraph. And Abstract existence is kind of reserved for Non-Corporal characters and/or characters who can resurrect themselves indefinitely. NiGHTS doesn't sound like he'd qualify for Type 1, but Type 2 actually might work. He does have Immortality Type 8 and says, "He cannot be destroyed so as long as darkness exists in the hearts of men."
 
well this seems to be going well.

I expected type 1 but I can take type 2 (for now), Abstract Existence is for characters that embodies or becomes an ideal, concept, thought or information and they become immortal thanks to it (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Abstract_Existence)

Immortality Type 8 is pretty obvious chief.

but what type of ability would he get if he/she/it is able to move in and destroy/warp/manipulate/create environments with no set shape?
 
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