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NiGHTS Into Dreams Conceptual Manipulation

What Medeus accepted can probably be applied.
 
oh and the only reason ultima believes type 2 is because he thinks the conceptual manipulation page is outdated

"Ultima Reality wrote:
I don't really know nor do I care if it's Conceptual Manipulation or whatever, but I'll just note that if it is, it's not Type 1. This type is for transcendental concepts which are actually showcased to exist on an 1-A scale; as in, not just "existing beyond the concepts of space and time" but actually transcending infinite hierarchies or provably standing beyond all extensions of the two concepts. It's just Type 2 at best."

I wrote: "alright thanks for the input, but I have a problem now, in all due respect your proset of such an explanation has flaws

for example, your claim implies jung's archetypes are not transcendental and not on the same footing as platonic forms (which in another thread you said the two can be treated similarly), if we were to discuss this, it's not false platonic or semi transcendental, it's a narrative specifically meant to apply to the series and cosmology, it's consistent with both material and word of god.

and the "infinite hierarchies" never even touches concept manipulation and isn't any where close to being even implied a requirement https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Conceptual_Manipulation

this is why I suggested specifying such requirements more, some people among us in the wiki are dishonest when shown certain things that have made other verses applied for a upgrade while others get the short end of the stick.

you also said not just "existing beyond the concepts of space and time" when type 1 specifically explains this notion as a valid critique and qualification. and there are no "infinite hierarchies" in plato's forms or jung's archetypes.

never mind concepts of space and time would be itself what belongs to it, that's in definition "spatiotemporal"

the qualification for type 1 conncepts are legit shown in the conceptual manipulation page

there are four types of conceptual abilities

Types
1. True Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

3. Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a byproduct of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

4. Lesser Realist Concept: Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. As such, these concepts are far more vulnerable and are generally lesser when compared to all other abstract concepts. However, these concepts are truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 3, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying all sentient life (or otherwise blocking all perception) and thus ending all concepts of this level would not qualify, while directly destroying all concepts of this level and thus blocking all perception would qualify.

and you've already said jung's archetypes isn't necessary to put on conceptual manipulation because they're swayed to the direction of platonic forms and what they have."

Ultima Reality Wrote: "That page is ostensibly outdated in relation to the current Tiering System; At the very least we should start using different terminology from "False" and "True" Platonic Concepts, since Platonism is one of those philosophies that people should seriously stop instinctively associating with 1-A. The new system made it mostly arbitrary and dependent on whatever verse it is shown in, tiering-wise, regardless if the verse's depiction of Platonic Forms is "fateful" to actual Platonism or not."

so there you go, it should be based on the page and not an an asset that hasn't been applied yet
 
Please write the exact titles for the pages that I need to unlock.
 
Antvasima said:
Please write the exact titles for the pages that I need to unlock.
Click to expand...
just the character NiGHTS will do although I contacted ultima again to verify if it's type 1 or type 2 concept/idea manipulation, Anything other than that everything medeus and I talked about is gonna get added, Assaltwaffle agrees Jung's archetypes falls on either 2 or 1. That's all.
 
You can only add what Medeus accepted though.
 
Antvasima said:
You can only add what Medeus accepted though.
Click to expand...
sure thing, he said he could accept at most type 2 athough possibly higher is nearly implied above based on what ultima said and what assalt followed up with.
 
Even in the current page for Conceptual Manipulation, Type 1 is reserved for 1-A and above, so the "likely higher" there ought to be removed anyways.
 
Ultima Reality said:
Even in the current page for Conceptual Manipulation, Type 1 is reserved for 1-A and above, so the "likely higher" there ought to be removed anyways.
Click to expand...
but i'm still confused; why isn't jung's archetypes specifically type 1 for this case? are the types not fully transcendent of reality? this is not even a relative to tiering thing.
 
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