New Evidence the Overvoid/Monitor-Mind is an aspect of the Presence

[Unwanted]

Justice League Incarnate came with information about the origins of creation and the Overvoid.
It clarified that the Overvoid/Monitor-Mind is in reality, only the light of the Presence being all there is, without darkness.



Here is the story:

In the beginning before creation and the light existing, darkness/the Great Darkness/the Great Evil Beast was all there is

Through that darkness, the light grew and apparently overwhelmed the darkness and the light in its turn became everything.

The darkness screamed. And that scream caused the flaw in the light/existence being born. An eternal push and pull between the light and the darkness.

This was somewhat earlier mentioned in Lucifer.
The darkness was created by the Presence to shape his light. The light/darkness being all there is, results in nothingness. And existence is a mixture of both.

These are just to have everything connected:
The Great Darkness that Justice League Incarnate is talking about is the one from Swamp Thing

The Great Evil Beast/Great Darkness is the absence of God's light. His shadow partner, locked in an eternal fight.

So the Overvoid is actually the light of the Presence that overwhelmed the Great Darkness. An aspect of him.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, they tweaked his origin story. The "Immaculate Perfection" AKA the Overvoid is now the "Immaculate Perfection" of the Light which is the Presence.

Copied the font and everything. I think this is an interesting piece of info about the Overvoid and helps it integrate more clearly into the rest of the cosmology.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Bump

 

[Elizio33]

Interesting information here. The Light itself was portrayed as the white void, the light that created the multiverse, and the hand that made a truce with the Great Darkness. From a holistic perspective of the DC Cosmology, it's very possible that the Light and the Great Darkness are aspects of the one and true God who created duality.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Hi everyone, your friendly most hated debater again here to debunk some debaters <3

The Ayin is the infinite Void of nothing before anything at all. It is total emptiness and void before God was God.

In the Kabbalah, the Source is called the Ain Soph Aurr by Grant in an interview here.

The Kabbalah beyond the Keter has 3 pillars, the Ain, the Ain Soph, and the Ain Soph Aurr. Looks like this.

For corroboration and evidence this is accurate.

https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/ain-soph

https://www.webofqabalah.com/id28.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof

https://modernphilosophystandards.com/2-the-universe/the-kabbalah-ain-soph-aur-and-heavenly-father/

https://theosophy.wiki/en/Ain_Soph


Ok so basically, Ain is the Overvoid otherwise called The Absolute.

Below that begins the emanations of the personal pillars of the Absolute. They are the Ain Soph and the Ain Soph Aurr.

Grant calls the Source the Ain Soph Aurr in this confirmed interview.

The Void aspect is confirmed as the Ain, that which all anything elses came from according to Grant and also other religious scholars all over the world.

Ain Soph​

In KABBALAH, the infinite or limitless. It is the unmanifested state of being prior to Kether or the first sephira of the Tree of Life. It is equivalent to the First Logos in the writings of Helena P. BLAVATSKY or the unmanifested Brahman in Hinduism. Ain Soph is one of the three states prior to manifestation. The first is Ain or nothingness; the next is Ain Soph, the limitless; followed by Ain Soph Aur, or the limitless light

Ain = Void, progentior of all.

Ain Soph = the Limitless undefined version of the first personality of God (The Ain Soph Aurr), basically the concept of God before any definitions were given to define what it is.

The Ain Soph Aurr = The top tier personality of God, otherwise called The Source in DC, Kirby's Source.

Ain's heirarchy = Mandrakk and Nil Monitors, two whole tiers above the Source Ain Soph Aurr.

This is also reflective of the Buddhist Voidist version from their religion, which the Ain = the Absolute Void unmanifest before anything was anything. And here is a video of Maharishi explaining that God the Creator is contained within and below the Unmanifest Void (Absolute)



So what does this mean? As I have said for years and years, the Overvoid in the final crisis mythology is the absolute, beyond all things. The Presence and the Source from Kirby's work are not able to go to the Void.

Remember, that the Ain Absolute considers everything not itself as a flaw and an infinitely small germ.

That includes the Ain Soph, the Ain Soph Aurr (The Source), the personal manifestations of the Ain Soph Aurr, which has a name on the Kabbalah Sephirots of Yesh/Yah/Yahweh, IE the Presence.

Here is what the heirarchy looks like.

Ain = Overvoid

Mandrakk, the corruption of the Ain Absolute (lol), the Nil Monitors (creative intent of the Ain), The Cosmic Armor, the embodiment of all that isn't the Ain.

Infinite Gap, because the comic literally says everything not a part of the Ain is an infinitely small germ.

Ain Soph

Ain Soph Aurr = The Source (by the way, this is called THE LIGHT in the religious texts and not God the Creator as the Light which has a separate node sephirot on the Kabbalah Tree of Life. IE this means the Great Darkness was there before the AIn Soph Aurr and both the Ain Soph, Aurr, and the Darkness are still contained by the Ain

Manifest personality of the Source AIn Soph Aurr is called Yah (Yahweh, the Presence)

Lucifer and the rest of the Angels

Presence created Vertigo Abstracts/Endless/Ect


Since God Yahweh the Creator is not the Ain, he is not above the Overvoid, the Presence and his angels are leagues below and don't even have a pillar of their own, they are below the AIn Soph Aurr in status.

Since The Source is beyond Perpetua and the Hands, but Mandrakk and the Nil Monitors are integeral activities of the Overvoid Ain, that means Mandrakk and the Nil Monitors are leagues beyond Perpetua, Darkest Knight, the Hands, the Chronicler, and the Source itself.

Since the Presence is called the Source in the Metal series and JLA 2018, you should essentially toss this as inaccurate because the sephirot node on the Kabbalah tree for Yahweh has its own personality circle. Far above that is the Ain Soph Aurr, the Source.

Infinitely above that, the Ain, otherwise known as the Overvoid, which Mandrakk is the corruption of the Totality beyond the Source and the Ain Soph, all leagues past the Yahweh node on the Tree.

All of this is proven with the religious scholars and the author interview confirming what the Source is and how the Overvoid is a whole two tiers above it, infinitely beyond it, to the point that the Ain Overvoid considers everything else as an infinitely small germ, that includes the Source, the Hands, the Presence, Perpetua, Lucifer, and everyone else that isn't a Nil monitors or Mandrakk. Not even an iota of my own opinion in any of this, 100% facts.

The thread says there is evidence that Monitor mind is below the Yahweh Presence God Creator, yet the Maharishi and the Kabbalah say no.

The top node is the Ain, the Overvoid. The Ain Soph and the Aurr are both emanations of the Ain, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. You claimed evidence, but you provided none. And I have solidified with a plethora of religious scholars that the Ain is infinitely beyond the Ain Soph Aurr, and that God the Creator (Yahweh as the Maharishi says in the interviews) is a lesser emanation personality "contained deeply in the Absolute." as he says in this video



<3

--Michael

*teleports out

 

[Deagonx]

And here is a video of Maharishi explaining that God the Creator is contained within and below the Unmanifest Void (Absolute)

Grant Morrison has never referenced the Maharishi or any of his teachings. This has no relevance to DC.

In the Kabbalah, the Source is called the Ain Soph Aurr by Grant in an interview here.

The religious concepts Grant cites in an author interview aren't more important than what was published in comic books.

There is a wealth of comic evidence equating the Overvoid, Source, and Presence. That won't be dismissed for vague author statements or lectures from an Indian guru that Grant never followed or mentioned, and simply referencing Kabbalah as a source of inspiration does not mean we can super impose Kabbalah over DC carte blanche especially considering Grant has explicitly cited several religious constructs as a source.

He has overtly referred to the Overvoid as being inspired by Buddhism, so which system wins out, Kabbalah or Buddhism? Neither. What matters is the comic characters themselves, not ad-hoc extrapolation from real world things that influenced them.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

It is not necessarily inconsistent for the Source to be equated with the "Ain Soph Aur," as Grant has explained that the Source represents limitless energy, which is in line with the concept of "Ain Soph Aur." However, this view is inconsistent with what we know about the Overvoid.

While there is myriads of evidence that suggests the Source is synonymous with the Overvoid or the white page, it is important to recognize that they might not be truly on the same level of existence. Grant has hinted several times about there differences, and Snyder has shown a hierarchy between these three concepts, positioning the Presence and the Source as below the Overvoid. Therefore, while the three ideas may ultimately represent the same thing, they do not necessarily take the same form.

The Source would stay as a White page and would be synonymous with the Overvoid, however it would be located at the centre of the Greater Omniverse, as well as encompassing the entire Greater Omniverse, disconnected from the Overvoid itself. That in my opinion is the most solid way at looking them.

Eitherway, i think both interpretations can work with “possibly" ratings

He has overtly referred to the Overvoid as being inspired by Buddhism, so which system wins out, Kabbalah or Buddhism? Neither. What matters is the comic characters themselves, not ad-hoc extrapolation from real world things that influenced them.

That is an extremely flawed, borderline incorrect way at looking at this. While it is true that readers can form their own interpretations of a work from the extremely vague texts inside a comic, the author's statements and intentions should be taken into consideration as they provide the most valuable insights into the meaning and significance of the story (coming from the comics damn creator)

An author's statements can clarify ambiguous or confusing elements in the story, provide context and historical background, and offer a deeper understanding of the themes and motifs present in the work.

The author is the creator and primary authority of the work, and their statements hold weight in determining the true nature and meaning of the story. Ignoring or dismissing their input can lead to misunderstandings or misinterpretations of the work. Like the assumption that “limitless energy" is an entirely non-dual nonexistent void.

Also c'mon breh WoGs have existed for centuries now.

 

[Deagonx]

It is not necessarily inconsistent for the Source to be equated with the "Ain Soph Aur," as Grant has explained that the Source represents limitless energy, which is in line with the concept of "Ain Soph Aur."

It's not a matter of inconsistency, it's the fact that Grant referencing an inspiration for a character doesn't mean we can consider the character identical to the inspiration in ways that aren't referenced in the comics. Besides that Grant isn't even the author of the Source.

and Snyder has shown a hierarchy between these three concepts, positioning the Presence and the Source as below the Overvoid

Nothing about this quote suggests a hierarchy of any kind. The word "manifest" means clear or obvious. The fact that the Overvoid is "less manifest" means it is more esoteric, not that there's a hierarchy.

And also, this quote is extremely sus, it's a YouTuber claiming Scott said something. I've watched those interviews and Scott didn't say that.

the author's statements and intentions should be taken into consideration as they provide the most valuable insights into the meaning and significance of the story

This doesn't contradict what I said. Taking something into consideration isn't the same as treating a real-world religion as canon to a verse just because one single author cites it as an inspiration, especially since that author has been known to cite nearly every real world religion as an inspiration.

An author's statements can clarify ambiguous or confusing elements in the story, provide context and historical background, and offer a deeper understanding of the themes and motifs present in the work.

I agree. You seem to think I'm rejecting the concept of WoG wholesale, but I didn't say that at all, nor did I imply it with anything I said.

 

[MichaelJZero]

"Grant didn't reference the Maharishi"

Deagon insisting Voidism, a 10,000 year old religion, was made by the Maharishi...is well...Idk what to say at that point. *facepalm

This cosmology is based on the Kabbalah and the Voidism religion regardless of how much Deagon wants to wiggle around. Its cited in Grants book, its cited in interviews, its cited in Final Crisis and the Multiversity that the Overvoid is the name for the unmanifest unified field >.> Ignoring this is the same as accosting truth and education.

Basically, Daegon is insisting that Christianity is not Christianity because your priest down the road in the local church reading off the pages of the New Testament doesn't mean anything. Its absurd. When Grant says its based on the Buddhist and Kabbalistic viewpoint, you listen as a fan and as a wiki entry so that others can be educated on the facts and not the personal opinions of some who dislilke it.

Tyler at the Imaginary Axis gave the same statement from Scott Snyder. Overvoid at the top, the most unknowable. The Source below, more manifest and knowable. The Presence, dead last on the trio listing for the totem cited as the most manifest, the most knowable.

This is literally the same thing that the two religious views say about how God functions. Before God was God, it was Void. The fun part of this is that the Void woke up and made its own consciousness for a second and noticed its lesser aspects had used the Void to impart their ideas and creations against the PRIME consciousness of God's will and without permission.

Reference also, that Grant has said repeatedly that earth 8 isn't a DC universe, its Marvel itself. And Image comics is Earth 41.

DC already confirmed that Elseworlds AND convergence were noted right on the 2014 Map because the Map is every canon that exists?

Why is that even important? Because the Elseworlds are shown to be exterior the Source Wall and into the Greater Omniverse in the new Incarnate and Dark Crisis series. So if the Original map showcases both of them inside the local orrery, then its EXACTLY as Grant said and that all the numbered earths are actually just all the DC comics series canons, and Marvel and Image are noted too as their own space.

There are no holes here. There are no maybes or need to figure this out. Grant laid out his content for us perfectly.

The Flaw includes us too and all the other franchises because we are all stories to the Void.

Its meta, the Overvoid contains us too and the Gods we believe in above us in a higher space. He calls that Hypertime, we are Cube Time, all fictional stories are Plane Time. Not just in text.

But he explains this on video in vivid detail that the Overvoid contains all the Gods IRL we believe in above us, and we are above all fictional spaces, and that we look down on Plane Time Fictional space. This author has said this over and over and over and its just being ignored by too many people. The favoritism must end. Do I need to post that video again?

Grant even explains in Supergods that Bleed is Meta and contains all the canons of DC comics and more. There is nothing in the story able to transgress the margin or the void that contains them.

There literally is no evidence that The Presence made Monitor mind, that is literally insane to me. Here is a comment that someone made recently that I will just repost. 26 points that debunk this vs speculation and 100% theory on the other side.

1. The Presence was removed from existence in Lucifer 2018, and the angels were looking inside of the Void for him and couldn't find him.

2. In Lucifer 2000, Lucifer's entire aim was to get as far from the Presence as possible. To do so, he flew deep into the Void. So if the Void is just another creation of the Presence, then the entire point of Lucifer 2000 was for nothing. Even though this Creation Void isn't the Overvoid, I'm sure you believe it is, because its a pattern with those who think the Presence > Overvoid.

3. None of the religious views all of these comics are based on say the personality and personal aspects of God are above the Void aspect of God.

4. Marvel, Image, and Archie Comics all have their own Yahweh tier being and none of them are the DC Comics Presence. So the Presence does not contain them from the boundary of DC.

5. Steve Orlando (wrote the Unexpected comics) said the Presence is lower tier than anything else on the list below the Monitors in power and stature.

6. In Neil Gaimans Sandman Overture, Mother Night was there before creations and Father time contains everything there is, yet he is contained in a white void.

7. Sandman 2019 shows Dream return from the Keter allowing him to reform, which is a place that none of his books have data on. Dream knows the Presence and has interacted with the Silver City and the angels.

8. Rox Ogama consumed Earth 51 in Final Crisis, whihc is the Jack Kirby series where Yahweh is the God of it.

9. The Angels of the Pax Dei wanted revenge on Rox Ogama for it and none of the Presence fans have ever explained why the Pax Dei targeted Rox Ogama at the end of Final Crisis.

10. Kirby was a Kabbalist and understood that Yahweh the God of the Bible has a Void aspect that exists above it and where it came from.

11. The Final Crisis lore was based on the Buddhist void religion and not the Biblical structure.

12. The Single Black Infinitude is the lacking creation before creation was there. The Great Darkness is the nothing aspect before Creation was made.

13. The Light in the Swamp Thing series showed the Darkness Hand reach up to heaven and make an agreement with the Light in Heaven. It did not extend beyond the Source, beyond the boundary of heaven, or into the newer concept of the Overvoid that came later in DC Comics. We can't assume they meant Heaven as in everything above the mortal realm, because the panel showed the silver city.

14. Morrison had a panel that explained the Source being the first thing to come after the Darkness and the first thing in the Light. This is mirrored by what Geoff Thorne said in your interview.

15. The Dark and the Light are aspects of the Multiverse/Creation/Flaw in Multiversity. Here. This says that the Flaw was once nothing and then something. And everyone who hates the Monitors story removes this from view on Quora and Comicvine. I saw someone on Vsbattles also do this and "forget" to show the entire page break here. This says 100% clear as 10 billion suns that the Flaw was once nothing, and then the flaw was there. It does not say the AND THEN is the Overvoid. It does not say the White space is the Light. It entirely talks about the imperceptable flaw not being there and then suddenly being there. This means the Great Darkness was originally imperceptable to the Final Crisis Overvoid. That's case closed. Don't even damn try to argue it.

16. Father Time is Possibility according to Morpheus. And mother night holds creation in her grip in a literal manner so says Dream. Dream says possibility and nonbeing coming together forged the possibility for creation and the multiverse to exist. I am not sure if the Presence fanboys even know this. Father Time was FIRST. And the Star people were the ones who were wanting to destroy all of Creation.

17. There was no notion of the Overvoid prior to Final Crisis. So linking the same Overvoid condumruum from Final Crisis to past series is pretty bad debating.

18. As MJ said, the Source was unknown to Highfather and the New Gods but their best friend was the Phantom Stranger and the Spectre who can talk to the Presence. So the Source cannot be the Presence in the slightest in the older series.

19. The Presence was said to not have any data on the Anti Monitor back in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

20. DeMatteis's Pralaya is Brahma, where Creation goes and comes from, which is the same exact thing as mother night to the letter, and where the comic says even the Creator goes when he gets removed. So this series also agrees the Presence isn't above the higher Voids

21. The Overvoid is above the entire realm of Limbo and it says NOTHING is beyond the ledge of Limbo except "The blank, the Ziltch." It does not say that nothing exists past there which includes the Presence, the Source, other comic book franchises, final heaven, the Great Darkness, and whatever the hell else anyone wants it to say. This is also said on the map on the left side, only the unknowable is out there. And the Presence and Source are the KNOWABLE aspects of the Kabbalah and the Void religion. The unknowable is the Void. So right on the map everyone is DEBUNKED right into the beard of Zeus himself.

22. Lucifer and Elain say the Dark Presence was indeed her grandfather and that he returned malformed and wrong after his venture into the Void. None of this nonsense its not God. You aren't supposed to take that literal. Its not GOD anymore they knew, its a dark God with different values.

23. Tyler said that Scott Snyder said that the Presence is the most manifest, the most knowable. The Overvoid is the least manifest, the most unknowable.

24. Perpetua was trying to hide from the Source and the Hands, but the Presence was talking to the Justice League in Justice League 2018 when constantine was trapped in hades and he got out with the help of the Spectre and the JLA. So the Presence is aware of the nonsense ongoing with Perpetua, but the Source and the Hands were not. Fully debunked that the Source = the Presence was retconned from not being the Source in JLA 2018, to then being said it was the Source in Death Metal, only to then find out that the Source has no idea what the Creation down there is up to because it send the Chronicler down to investigate and detail it. But the heroes already talked to the Presence in JLA 2018 so none of this is accurate. These aren't even little plot holes, they are the biggest plot holes ever. And listening to Wally West on who God really is? Bad choice of trust to invoke.

25. Presence fanboys ignore 1-24 on this list, 2 dozen points that prove the Presence is not the Source and the Source isn't the Overvoid because the Source and the Presence are creators who paint on the Overvoid. They instead only invoke the last bit of point 24, which is to trust wally west over TWENTY FOUR POINTS, and there are more, all of these were just off the top of my head and all of them refute this.

That is a lot of evidence to just chuck right out the window including statements from the content creators too. It is just a small minority that believes the opposite and ignores all these points and many many more, and an even tinier minority that enforces speculation instead of actual evidence and what all these comics and content creators have said over and over.


Here is the Presence talking to the heroes in JLA 2018 prior to the Death Metal. This is happening while Perpetua is hiding from the Source and the Hands. Yet the Presence seems to know everything going on and somehow the Hands and Source AND THE CHRONICLER DO NOT KNOW???

Same Presence text bubbles and font. Not the Spectre talking.

Then this gets a 180 degree turn in Death Metal.

Inside of the Void there are beings like Perpetua who get their power from the Presence/Source...so where does this say that the Presence and the Source made the Overvoid? Where does it say the Presence sits above the Infinite Eternal Overvoid and where does it say the Overvoid is below the Source?

Nowhere. This is a meme and a fanstasy fan theory explanation by those who want the hierarchy revised.

Overvoid at the top in Final Crisis. Beyond even the Authors. Beyond us in the Meta. Who isn't beyond us in the meta? The DC Comics presence, or the Jack Kirby DC Comics source who the new gods worship. The Presence isn't beyond TOAA in Earth 8. The Presence isn't beyond Man of Miracles in Earth 41.

This is so much evidence that its just bursting at the seams. The Final Crisis Overvoid and context was revised by other authors who came later. Respect is needed for the Final Crisis and Multiversity version of this too. So, I am curious if it will be revised or not and how the mods and wiki editors would handle this.

There are rankings for variant Supermans because they are from different authored series. So too, there needs to be rankings different for the FC and Multiversity versions of these characters and not just the Death Metal one. The new Incarnate series doesn't even care what Scott said about that cosmology and the authors of Infinite Frontier went right ahead and said Michael,, the Presence, and the Lucifer and Perpetua and everything except Mandrakk and the Overvoid were consumed by Raven Unkindness. Everyone means everyone. So I've no idea what would lead anyone who believe the Presence > Overvoid or that the Overvoid Absolute Void is below the lower aspects of itself...

Either way, thanks for reading the wall of text.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

It's not a matter of inconsistency, it's the fact that Grant referencing an inspiration for a character doesn't mean we can consider the character identical to the inspiration in ways that aren't referenced in the comics. Besides that Grant isn't even the author of the Source.

But it isnt just an inspiration, we know its precisely what Grant thinks. He straight up said it is the Ain Soph Aur, and said that the FC cosmology is inspired by Buddhism and Cabbalistic stuff.

Again, this isnt particularly inconsistent or unfounded, we kinda know from Grants “DC Book” that the Source represents limitless energy where the Overvoid represents a non-dual existence beyond ideas like energy and so on.

This doesn't contradict what I said. Taking something into consideration isn't the same as treating a real-world religion as canon to a verse just because one single author cites it as an inspiration, especially since that author has been known to cite nearly every real world religion as an inspiration.

I get that, but Grant is very obviously just not taking inspirations but straight up telling the reader that these DC things are the incorporations of these religious concepts into the verse, he has hinted and flatout said this numerous times now. With The Source being explicitly stated to be the Ain Soph Aur.

 

[Deagonx]

He straight up said it is the Ain Soph Aur, and said that the FC cosmology is inspired by Buddhism and Cabbalistic stuff.

It can't be both Buddhist and Qabbalistic. Those are two completely different sets of religious beliefs, hence they are just inspirations. Further, he isn't the author of the Source, so it's irrelevant either way. Even if he had referring to, say, the Overvoid as Ain Soph Aur explicitly, it still wouldn't matter for tiering, it would not allow us to justify a tier that couldn't otherwise be justified by in-comic information.

I get that, but Grant is very obviously just not taking inspirations but straight up telling the reader that these DC things are the incorporations of these religious concepts into the verse, he has hinted and flatout said this numerous times now

Aspects of them, he didn't copy+paste a religious concept wholesale into DC. It very obviously was talking about inspirations, but we will never tier something by pulling real life religious info that isn't in the comic. You'd have to show the Source or the Overvoid have that attribute, not just show that a real world religious concept that Grant referred to in an interview has it.

The Presence, dead last on the trio listing for the totem cited as the most manifest, the most knowable.

Knowability isn't an indication of power nor does it represent a hierarchy. The idea that Tyler saying this represents some kind of L for the Presence is nonsensical.

Deagon insisting Voidism, a 10,000 year old religion, was made by the Maharishi

I did not say this. My comment does not even reference "Voidism." Please refrain from overtly misquoting or strawmanning me in the future, it is a rather dishonest way to conduct a discussion.

Either way, thanks for reading the wall of text.

Eh, I didn't.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

It can't be both Buddhist and Qabbalistic. Those are two completely different sets of religious beliefs

I dont think the concepts of void in Buddhism and Kabblism are not inherently that different

In Buddhist philosophy, the concept of void (sunyata) refers to the emptiness or lack of inherent existence in all phenomena, including the self.

In Qabbalistic thought, the concept of Ayin refers to a state of absolute nothingness or non-being, which is the ultimate source of all creation.

They really aren't that different

Even if he had referring to, say, the Overvoid as Ain Soph Aur explicitly, it still wouldn't matter for tiering, it would not allow us to justify a tier that couldn't otherwise be justified by in-comic information.

It should. Because with the abundance of evidence that clearly differentiates the Overvoid from the Source, us getting a statement that straight up gives different descriptions of these two things would very clearly be a big problem in our scaling, it would be just pretty inaccurate to ignore all of these inconsistencies.

Which is pretty wierd considering i've always interpreted you as someone who actually closely examines high tier scaling like this.

You'd have to show the Source or the Overvoid have that attribute, not just show that a real world religious concept that Grant referred to in an interview has it.

We already have explicit evidence that the Source exists within the Greater Omniverse and is literally just limitless energy source. The Overvoid has consistently been referred to as like a whole other thing.

 

[Deagonx]

I dont think the concepts of void in Buddhism and Kabblism are not inherently that different

In Buddhist philosophy, the concept of void (sunyata) refers to the emptiness or lack of inherent existence in all phenomena, including the self.

In Qabbalistic thought, the concept of Ayin refers to a state of absolute nothingness or non-being, which is the ultimate source of all creation.

They really aren't that different

If you only look at the surface level information instead of the actual details, of course they'd look similar.

It should. Because with the abundance of evidence that clearly differentiates the Overvoid from the Source, us getting a statement that straight up gives different descriptions of these two things would very clearly be a big problem in our scaling, it would be just pretty inaccurate to ignore all of these inconsistencies.

Which is pretty wierd considering i've always interpreted you as someone who actually closely examines high tier scaling like this.

I do examine them closely, but our philosophies are opposed on this matter. I think it would be extremely inaccurate to tier a character based on a real-world religion without those details being substantiated in the comic itself, rather than just having a reference to that religion in an author statement. And I'm not sure what your point is about the Source and the Overvoid, but there is a lot of information that identifies them as being the same.

We already have explicit evidence that the Source exists within the Greater Omniverse and is literally just limitless energy source. The Overvoid has consistently been referred to as like a whole other thing.

We also have explicit evidence that they are the same thing, or at the very least part of a comutual godhead.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Just saying what the author said. Ask Grant, Grant says Overvoid > all. And that the Overvoid contains all story, all anything. Not a clue how anyone, even one person can sit here and tell me the Overvoid ranks low 1C when its regarded as what contains DC entirely as a meta as well as Marvel and other fictions too. Right from the authors mouth.

Mandrakk made by the comic page to go eat all the things in the page. And you are telling me that the Presence and Perpetua and TDK are beyond this level? Lol no.

Asked Scott Snyder and James Tynion, says Overvoid > all
Asked Steve Orlando, says Overvoid > all
Asked Geoff Thorne, says Overvoid > all
Asked Tim Sherradan and the other writer on his series, both said Overvoid > all

And for good measure, I asked a fan fiction writer who did a great job with his published series Ted Kendrick, says Overvoid > all.

And Ted is a lore genius and expert.

With all of this, your wiki doesn't reflect the author statements, it reflects the subjective opinions of a few people who should NEVER be listened to on comic lore. Power users who are known to invert author statements, like Deagon did with Mr. Orlando.

For reference, Deagon said the literal opposite of all of these issues while I had Mr. Orlando on Twitter talking about how the opposite of what Deagon said was valid. The moment he posted his thread on Comicvine about his charity interview and his baseless statements that Final Heaven and the Eonymous > Overvoid, Steve and others were on Twitter saying this. But you won't ever see these scans posted by anyone but ME because I am the only one willing to show them to you. Deagon said this for a few years past and everyone here listened to him. Not one person even came to me or anyone else to ask Orlando what the truth was. But I did.

Deagon said the opposite of what Steve said, for years. Literal years.

This was censored at ComicVine and every time I posted it on Quora, users flagged it and had it removed.

This happened the same way, every time I mentioned it, magically it would get taken down.

The answer is right on the page, he says.

And it is. Its literally shown and described right in Milk Wars, but you won't see my comments on this anywhere but right now and they never see the light of day due to alias's of specific users constantly flagging my content for no reason outside of they dont like to be debunked,

Where is Retconn and Final heaven, in the last ring somewhere of Existence, but not the edge of it.

Final heaven and Retconn are in the same realm.

Where? In creation it says? Inside of Creation is where Final Heaven is? Interesting how its been in the comic this entire time and likely most of you reading this are totally shocked to see it. Ask yourselves why though...why hasn't anyone else but me posted the scans?

High inside of Final Heaven, Creation begins to unsew itself.

Where is Final Heaven again? Inside of the Sacred gel? Its in the Sacred gel of what? Oh the Void? The sacred gel of the Void? All this time?

Where is it? Just one more....where is the entire Milk Wars and Final heaven saga located? Oh, ripples in the Overvoid, including the author avatars which you rate at 1-A likely 0. All contained by the Overvoid.

All the above scans taken right from Milk Wars, so it worries me to the extreme that so many users never post these scans and still want to discuss the hierarchy in a totally different way than it was shown in the comics and by the authors who made them.

The baseless claims that my Orlando interview is fake are busted here, as I've grown tired of grown ass adults refusing to even message me to get the proof. I already asked comicsketchart to confirm the Orlando interview so the next time anyone says its fake, they can rightly F right off for harassing me for years that it wasn't real. Its sad that I even had to reach out to them to confirm it and authenticate it.

Here is another fun one, the Great Darkness being defined in the Swamp Thing series as the concept of evil. Whoops. That really destroys the entire Great Darkness > Overvoid thing right? Shame that Geoff Throne directly stated in his series the Darkness is below the Source in power and both are far below the Overvoid but its not like anyone here is going to listen to me, anything I show is automatically denied and I get chastized and all my interviews and scans get totally censored.

Mods, I have lost all patience at this point for those who invert comic lore and mythology in exchange for favoritism. I hope you all do way better in the future with who you listen to.

I see that you've redefined the ranking for the Overvoid and bumped up the Presence despite my post above. Which means you are being lied to by the users that you listen to. They are playing you for fools. Nobody with even a basic education on Hinduism and the Kabbalah thinks the lower emanations of the Absolute Void are above the Void...your rankings literally make no sense.

You've downplayed the Grant morrison Overvoid version, the original progenitor of it, and instead based the ranking on another authors interpretation of Grant's, which was written different. You did the same thing with Mandrakk and the CAS. But you bumped up all the others despite none of them, not even Perpetua or TDK types having infinite power and granting themselves infinite power.

In fact, the opposite. Here is Perpetua and TDK literally panting for energy and running out like a battery in combat.

Dang so Perpetua at her max can't give herself infinite more power and is totally energy based and not conceptual at all? Sounds weird, almost like she would be lesser than Mandrakk and CAS gifting themselves in combat infinitely more power over and over and over.

The stronger he becomes, the stronger I become to oppose him. Dang...so that is a power Perpetua and TDK don't have and showed the opposite of?
Why they listed higher than these two then in ranking? Probably because the users who talk about this here don't even want you to see these scans.


But what about the top version of TDK and Wonder Woman? Cool lets take a look..

Interesting, so super amped TDK in his max form fights Diana who was just given a fraction of the forge's power. The forge was stated to be "dim, and dying" when it gave Diana some of it, and she used it to bat TDK away like a bug.

So the forge wasn't in full power at the time and only gifted her a fraction of its power.

That is very interesting because the same forge gave Neon and Alden ALL of its power of Creation and Destruction and that could not even put a dent in a weakened version of Mandrakk.

Wow would you look at that, the total Creation and Destruction power doesn't even bother Mandrakk in his weakened state. Diana is told by TDK that she cannot create, so she doesn't have that same power neon and alden had at all.

Why is this important? Neon and Alden got amps on Bleedspace after this and then proceeded to agree the Cosmic Armor was stronger than both of them at this time.

Same line as the CAS. From lips stronger than yours you say? dang...so the two guys stronger than the full power of the Forge are in fact less powerful than the CAS? Cool, can't wait to see the wiki reflected with the new rankings of High 1A for Mandrakk and 1A normal for CAS, and Tier 0 back for the Overvoid.


I realize I am an ass, and I come off as condensending and diiffult, and annoying. But I am the best at what I do. I have shown you things you didn't know existed in interviews and they were all denied. I have asked you to be unbiased and fair, but for some reason some users insist that you shouldn't listen to the OG writer on the Overvoid topic and instead you should listen to later authors on Grants original work, and you ended up totally redefining what the Overvoid was.

Grant said the Source is the Ain Soph Aur. Do not edit his interviews further. Be respectful from now on, please. The Ain Soph Aur is not the Absolute. Its below the Absolute.

The Absolute is the Overvoid, direct from Grant.

Overvoid > Source > Presence.

These are not the same entities, the other two are emanations of thought processes from the Absolute according to every major world scholar in the Kabbalah and Voidism, and also multiple authors.

It is time for your ranks to change please on these characters. Just remember, Creation is in a jar on Nil, and that Creation contains more than just DC.

Final heaven, retconn and the Crack are all in the exterior realm of DC, the last edge of that is Limbo. and CAS wrapped over the entire thing to protect it.

Overvoid - T0

Mandrakk - High 1A

CAS - 1A

Nil monitors = low 1A

You can't have the author avatar at tier 0 or high 1A when the CAS poked the entire realm of the author avatars as a spec.

What are your scalings even based on? Its not the comics, I just showed you the comics showcase nothing of how your rankings and discussions here show it to be. Its not based on the authors of the guidebooks, because I asked them all for the answers and they do not reflect your rankings at all. They are based on the speculations and hopefull wishes of a few user who are biased and don't care what the facts are.

Please change that ethical standard, you can do way better than this. And if you have any questions please toss them via DM so I can get a notification via email that someone is talking to me. Ty so much for reading, Im just trying to help. I want your ranks to be based on the evidence and not subjective opinions and speculations of others.

 

[Elizio33]

I want your ranks to be based on the evidence and not subjective opinions and speculations of others.

*You want our rankings to be based on your own opinions and speculation, don't reverse things.

 

[MichaelJZero]

*You want our rankings to be based on your own opinions and speculation, don't reverse things.

Your only come back was to say I just want it my way.......after I posted a huge wall of content from the authors, editors, illustrators, and the guidebooks and the comics that are polar opposite of your rankings? Bravo.

Tag me when you want something else debunked with actual evidence and not even an iota of opinion or reinterpretation.

 

[Robo432343]

Your only come back was to say I just want it my way.......after I posted a huge wall of content from the authors, editors, illustrators, and the guidebooks and the comics that are polar opposite of your rankings? Bravo.

all the things you have posted got debunked on comic vine

 

[Elizio33]

Your only come back was to say I just want it my way.......after I posted a huge wall of content from the authors, editors, illustrators, and the guidebooks and the comics that are polar opposite of your rankings? Bravo.

You also had nothing to say about Grant calling the Source the Ain Soph Aurr, that is 3 levels below the Absolute. Not a peep from you, or anyone really, same as always, just a big nuh uh from you each time I close the book on whatever topics you bring up. This is what the religious map looks like

And this is how your group told others it was.

Absolute that contains the 3 Ain spheres? That's the Overvoid.
Grant calls the lowest emanation of the 3 the Source Ain Soph Aurr?

The Creator God not even listed on this map and resides outside of the 3...and that's the Presence?

Elizio33 - I flip dat'

*slow clap, amazing debating gj

First of all, it's not my rankings, it's a collective work that determined the new tiers of the DC God Tiers. Secondly, Morrison has taken various parts of Kabbalah and Buddhism and added them to his vision of DC cosmology, but does that mean he's following them to the letter in his stories? No. He had also used M-Theory, Brane Cosmology and String Theory for his vision of DC Cosmology as well, he didn't follow them to the letter either. The mere fact that Morrison said the Source is the Ain Soph Aurr means very little without strong evidence from the comics material to support that he followed the "rules" of Kabbalah to the letter. It was just a source of inspiration for Morrison’s stories, but you take it literally and say Overvoid > All Fictions, CAS = All Fictions and biased misinformation like that.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Your Steve Orlando interview, is it really real?

 

[MichaelJZero]

Your Steve Orlando interview, is it really real?

Always was. All anyone had to do was reach out to me and ask for it, and they received it.

First of all, it's not my rankings, it's a collective work that determined the new tiers of the DC God Tiers. Secondly, Morrison has taken various parts of Kabbalah and Buddhism and added them to his vision of DC cosmology, but does that mean he's following them to the letter in his stories? No. He had also used M-Theory, Brane Cosmology and String Theory for his vision of DC Cosmology as well, he didn't follow them to the letter either. The mere fact that Morrison said the Source is the Ain Soph Aurr means very little without strong evidence from the comics material to support that he followed the "rules" of Kabbalah to the letter. It was just a source of inspiration for Morrison’s stories, but you take it literally and say Overvoid > All Fictions, CAS = All Fictions and biased misinformation like that.

-Elizio33

You literally said its just my opinion when I showed you all of this below, which means you could care less what the comics said, what the guidebooks said, and what the content creators said about their own work. All you care about is which debating user here gets the edit the wiki with the inverse of all of it. I'm not the biased one here, you are.

Orlando, Morrison, DeMatteis, Carey, Gaiman, Kendrick, Sherradan, Jeremy Adams, Scott Snyder, James Tynion, Author of the DC JLA Guidebook all said the opposite of what your rankings said, so I ask you again what the ranks are based on if all these content creators said the literal opposite of what you have said?

When I showed you the comic stating Final Heaven and Retconn Corps share the same space and I highlighted the scan from the comic that showed it and said it, you came back and said its my opinion.

When I showed you the author on Twitter answering this directly, you said this is just my opinion when I showed it because you were brain washed to believe your fan theory beats the content creator of the content you are scaling.

When I showed you CAS and Mandrakk giving themselves infinite power and not running out of it live in combat, and TDK and Perpetua running out of energy and panting for sustinence, you said thats my opinion.

You seem to believe that anything the comic, authors, guidebooks, or illustrators, or the actual evidence says is just opinion. But your viewpoint is objective because vsbattles has opted to ignore all of this and run with speculation, reinterpretation, and fan opinion for the scaling ranks instead.

I just shot down all of the top rankings for vsbattles scaling system with actual evidence and your first reply was to be hostile with me and denounce it, instead of say wow ty for showing us all this and being very, very very very very upset with the other debaters who lied to you for years and laughed behind the scenes about you going along with it.

You don't seem upset with them at all for lying to you and messing with you. How does it feel to know they purposely censored that from you for so long? You blinded listened to them without investigation yourself. And your first reply to me on this was Nah bruh, when you post author interviews thats just your opinion. When you show the comic scans that totally ruin my favoritism, thats just your opinion.

But when you ignore all the facts and data, and run with just your opinion...thats a fact? Well, I can't say that I am surprised dude. You did that with the Absolute > Ain > Ain Soph > Ain Soph Aurr > Creator God hierearchy, you actually flipped it totally reverse and you dusted your shoulder off and told yourself you did a great job today.

:\

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Always was. All anyone had to do was reach out to me and ask for it, and they received it.

About the photo above, can you make a Vimeo video proving that this was indeed the official Facebook account of Comicsketchart if you don't mind?

 

[MichaelJZero]

About the photo above, can you make a Vimeo video proving that this was indeed the official Facebook account of Comicsketchart if you don't mind?

No prob, just made this for you. Hope that is enough.



And here are some of the documents.

Mandrakk and the Overvoid are a two in one definition, corroboration of what Grant said in the comic that Mandrakk is the corruption of the Overvoid.

The Presence aint the Source and neither are the Overvoid, the Presence is a lower tier in the Sphere of Gods.

Monitors could stand against the Presence, but they don't operate in the same area.

Final Heaven in the Overvoid just as the comic showed repeatedly.

So then why are the Final heaven group characters higher ranked than the Overvoid? Needs revision doesn't it, since fans here were wrong on this.

Geoff Thorne also said the Overvoid > Source. I asked what the relationship was between the Source and the Overvoid and he said the Source was the first thing in the Overvoid but he mispelled Overvoid as omnivores. You can see this, because the paragraph above references Overvoid and not the Omniverse, we were talking about the Overvoid.

Here is a second interview from Grants book calling the Kirby Source the Ain Soph Aurr, so that is a 2x combo on this.

You rate Perpetua and the Hands above the Nil Monitors for unknown reasons despite the Guidebook telling you that Existence is composed of only 6 dimensions.

If you are doing composite cosmology, then you listen to the comics say that Existence's final realm is Limbo and the CAS, Mandrakk, Monitors, and the Overvoid are all beyond that. So more revision, where do you place the Ain Soph Aurr Source? Mandrakk, CAS, Monitors, and Overvoid should be way higher.

Limbo is the edge of DC. Its meta. Its where the author avatars. More so, according to the new guidebook, Limbo is a shared continuity for all fictional properties.

Monitor sphere above this, Nil Above that, Overvoid above that.

So where do you place the Author avatar in rank these days? High 1a likely 0? Yea, no. All contained by the CAS and Overvoid.

Guidebook author confirming that Nil Monitors of Final Crisis oversee Everything, including the 6th dimension and the Crack, yet vsbattles places the Crack and Perpetua above them?

Guidebook confirms, all existence is in a jar on Nil and the CAS wrapped it.

So this is just a small taste of the revisions that need to be altered if you don't want to be biased. Vsbattles can run whatever scenario they want, its your site do as you please. Of course. But everyone eventually comes over to this side of it when they get a bit older and realize fan theory and speculation, and pushing favoritism over facts is highly detrimental to ones mental health later in life. Its going to **** your shit up later knowing you did this and ignored all of this, and still opted for favoritism instead of being a pristine fair, adult and unbiased place and resource for information that mostly kids and youth come to understand comics. You think I'm bad? Just wait until that creeping seed starts to expand later in life with the knowledge that so many purposely censored all this and disregarded it as just opinion and not actually objective data that is directly shown and stated. Its going to grow very slowly at night in the back of your minds and eventually in a few years or more, its going to get really bad that this is the path you chose.

And you are betraying young comic fans trust by listening to a few users who prefer fan theory over facts. Lets stop this now before its too late.

Do you want to be in the Dark Army? Or, come into the Light? Your choice. When you have kids later in life, you'll get what I am saying. You can't look at them and gift them biased information when they run up to you and ask you about comic stuff. You as a parent and adult need to get it right and not swindle them just because you dislike 10 authors explained the hierarchy totally different than how its scaled here right now. But you are doing that to untold numbers of youth who come to your wiki and forum to seek verified information, only to have that information warped and inverted sometimes.

Life bites back, and I desperately do not want to see more haters of mine turn into my friends who cannot cope with what they said for so long. Its awful to watch and hear.

 

[Deagonx]

Just saying what the author said

And for good measure, I asked a fan fiction writer who did a great job with his published series Ted Kendrick, says Overvoid > all

Wow, lol. A fan fiction writer.

Anyways, you should acquaint yourself with our standards for how author statements are treated.

Per the Editing Rules:

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Wow, lol. A fan fiction writer.

Anyways, you should acquaint yourself with our standards for how author statements are treated.

Per the Editing Rules:

To be perfectly honest, does the Source being limitless energy, the Overvoid being beyond all and Mandrakk being a part of the Overvoid all inconsistent?

Steve Orlandos statements would explain the nature of Mandrakk alot better, and would be pretty consistent with Morrison very clearly believing that Mandrakk does kinda represent the embodiment of hatred of the Overvoid towards the Flaw.

 

[Deagonx]

To be perfectly honest, does the Source being limitless energy, the Overvoid being beyond all and Mandrakk being a part of the Overvoid all inconsistent?

Mandrakk is a fragment of Mar Novu, so that part is at the very least inconsistent.

Steve Orlandos statements would explain the nature of Mandrakk alot better, and would be pretty consistent with Morrison very clearly believing that Mandrakk does kinda represent the embodiment of hatred of the Overvoid towards the Flaw.

The Steve Orlando interview is completely unusable given our inability to confirm it's authenticity. And no, the vimeo video does not accomplish that.

 

[Deagonx]

With all of this, your wiki doesn't reflect the author statements, it reflects the subjective opinions of a few people who should NEVER be listened to on comic lore. Power users who are known to invert author statements, like Deagon did with Mr. Orlando.

For reference, Deagon said the literal opposite of all of these issues while I had Mr. Orlando on Twitter talking about how the opposite of what Deagon said was valid. The moment he posted his thread on Comicvine about his charity interview and his baseless statements that Final Heaven and the Eonymous > Overvoid, Steve and others were on Twitter saying this. But you won't ever see these scans posted by anyone but ME because I am the only one willing to show them to you. Deagon said this for a few years past and everyone here listened to him. Not one person even came to me or anyone else to ask Orlando what the truth was. But I did.

Deagon said the opposite of what Steve said, for years. Literal years.

Oh, also, on this subject. As someone that actually did an interview with Steve Orlando, he does confirm that the Eonymous are greater than the Overvoid. He states that the scene where the Eonymous spill coffee on the Multiversity map is what created the Wildstorm Universe. So the Eonymous fully transcend the Overvoid and see it as fiction, and can casually increase the "flaw" on it by spilling coffee.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Mandrakk is a fragment of Mar Novu, so that part is at the very least inconsistent.

Welp, we all know its a tadbit more complicated then that

The Steve Orlando interview is completely unusable given our inability to confirm it's authenticity. And no, the vimeo video does not accomplish that.

Its pretty usable tbh, i believe MJ has also posted evidence that it came directly from the Gmail account of comicsketchart

Oh, also, on this subject. As someone that actually did an interview with Steve Orlando, he does confirm that the Eonymous are greater than the Overvoid. He states that the scene where the Eonymous spill coffee on the Multiversity map is what created the Wildstorm Universe. So the Eonymous fully transcend the Overvoid and see it as fiction, and can casually increase the "flaw" on it by spilling coffee.

Really? Can i see the interview if you dont mind?

 

[Deagonx]

Its pretty usable tbh, i believe MJ has also posted evidence that it came directly from the Gmail account of comicsketchart

At best, if interpreted generously, we could confirm that he had an interview with Steve. We still cannot confirm the veracity of what was said exactly. It's completely unusable as evidence for this wiki.

Really? Can i see the interview if you dont mind?

Sure.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I did not know these two interviews were you tbh, i thought that was Imaginary Axis. Thats pretty cool

So are the Eonymous truly the God tiers of the verse?

 

[Deagonx]

So are the Eonymous truly the God tiers of the verse?

In sense, but in practice they aren't even really in continuity with anything else. They were only mentioned once.

 

[Tarang123]

No prob, just made this for you. Hope that is enough.



And here are some of the documents.

Mandrakk and the Overvoid are a two in one definition, corroboration of what Grant said in the comic that Mandrakk is the corruption of the Overvoid.

The Presence aint the Source and neither are the Overvoid, the Presence is a lower tier in the Sphere of Gods.

Monitors could stand against the Presence, but they don't operate in the same area.

Final Heaven in the Overvoid just as the comic showed repeatedly.

So then why are the Final heaven group characters higher ranked than the Overvoid? Needs revision doesn't it, since fans here were wrong on this.

Geoff Thorne also said the Overvoid > Source. I asked what the relationship was between the Source and the Overvoid and he said the Source was the first thing in the Overvoid but he mispelled Overvoid as omnivores. You can see this, because the paragraph above references Overvoid and not the Omniverse, we were talking about the Overvoid.

Here is a second interview from Grants book calling the Kirby Source the Ain Soph Aurr, so that is a 2x combo on this.

You rate Perpetua and the Hands above the Nil Monitors for unknown reasons despite the Guidebook telling you that Existence is composed of only 6 dimensions.

If you are doing composite cosmology, then you listen to the comics say that Existence's final realm is Limbo and the CAS, Mandrakk, Monitors, and the Overvoid are all beyond that. So more revision, where do you place the Ain Soph Aurr Source? Mandrakk, CAS, Monitors, and Overvoid should be way higher.

Limbo is the edge of DC. Its meta. Its where the author avatars. More so, according to the new guidebook, Limbo is a shared continuity for all fictional properties.

Monitor sphere above this, Nil Above that, Overvoid above that.

So where do you place the Author avatar in rank these days? High 1a likely 0? Yea, no. All contained by the CAS and Overvoid.

Guidebook author confirming that Nil Monitors of Final Crisis oversee Everything, including the 6th dimension and the Crack, yet vsbattles places the Crack and Perpetua above them?

Guidebook confirms, all existence is in a jar on Nil and the CAS wrapped it.

So this is just a small taste of the revisions that need to be altered if you don't want to be biased. Vsbattles can run whatever scenario they want, its your site do as you please. Of course. But everyone eventually comes over to this side of it when they get a bit older and realize fan theory and speculation, and pushing favoritism over facts is highly detrimental to ones mental health later in life. Its going to **** your shit up later knowing you did this and ignored all of this, and still opted for favoritism instead of being a pristine fair, adult and unbiased place and resource for information that mostly kids and youth come to understand comics. You think I'm bad? Just wait until that creeping seed starts to expand later in life with the knowledge that so many purposely censored all this and disregarded it as just opinion and not actually objective data that is directly shown and stated. Its going to grow very slowly at night in the back of your minds and eventually in a few years or more, its going to get really bad that this is the path you chose.

And you are betraying young comic fans trust by listening to a few users who prefer fan theory over facts. Lets stop this now before its too late.

Do you want to be in the Dark Army? Or, come into the Light? Your choice. When you have kids later in life, you'll get what I am saying. You can't look at them and gift them biased information when they run up to you and ask you about comic stuff. You as a parent and adult need to get it right and not swindle them just because you dislike 10 authors explained the hierarchy totally different than how its scaled here right now. But you are doing that to untold numbers of youth who come to your wiki and forum to seek verified information, only to have that information warped and inverted sometimes.

Life bites back, and I desperately do not want to see more haters of mine turn into my friends who cannot cope with what they said for so long. Its awful to watch and hear.

We don’t take author statements, and half the stuff you said is secondary to the established lore in the actual comic. This already destroys the entire basis of your argument. An author statement doesn’t really matter if the source material directly contradicts it, which it likely does.

In other words, use scans from the actual story that can’t be brushed aside as retconned

 

[MichaelJZero]

We don’t take author statements, and half the stuff you said is secondary to the established lore in the actual comic. This already destroys the entire basis of your argument. An author statement doesn’t really matter if the source material directly contradicts it, which it likely does.

In other words, use scans from the actual story that can’t be brushed aside as retconned

Years out now from the first time you said this to me and you are still ducking providing any evidence to it. Nobody has ever showed that it contradicts. You just say it and run, then months later I remember you are still around and I post something, only for you to return to posting that same line and not backing it up.

Nothing you guys said about the Presence was valid.

The Presence was almost murked by the Parliaments once, the Presence was made manifest after Creations started,

Cestis and Silk Man were made by the hands of another creator that predated the Presence, the Presence cannot even see in the void



Presence cannot see in the Void in the original lucifer series and the 2016 run, lol??? Presence cannot see in the Void, x2 from a different author too

New guide said Presence made manifest

Source is the Ain Soph Aurr

Source is the Ain Sophh Aurr

The Void predates the Creator

The Overvoid is the Absolute that contains the three tiers of the Ayin.

This cosmology inspired by the Voidist Buddhist tangent, and the Kabbalah,

Overvoid is at the top of the entire hierarchy, direct from the author, and I understand you don't care what the author says about anything unless they agree with you. As I see you in other topics using author statements all the time to justify yourself but here you refuse to accept it.

For years, you and your group inverted the religious version of this and tried to tell others that DC runs on the Chrisitan doctrine, but that isn't at all valid. It runs on The Kabbalah and the Voidist variant of Buddhist viewpoint which is a bit different from classic Buddhism the same way that Baptists are a bit different from Catholics yet both are Christian.

You also are big on saying that DC Comics itself needs to confirm things officially. Yet, you never post this one where DC Officially confirms that the cosmic map includes all of Convergence as just one piece of it.

That canon, and all the variant author series from all of DC's entire history are in that map. The entire point of this series was to include all meta's and your wiki scaling system ignores that because you dont like to scale meta with its own tier above the author avatars, its intentional by your group.

This is all before the author statements from a ton of authors and content creators explaining how your group was wrong this entire time on how you view the hierarchy.

Grant citing the Presence and Biblical lore don't matter anymore, as it was the point to remove the old god from the 4th world and enter the 5th with a new god being taking over in Final Crisis Revelations.

Holly Black. The Presence is dead.

Scott Snyder, the Presence is the lower tier of the big three.

Geoff Throne, Overvoid > Source

Steve Orlando, Presence low tier, Overvoid the Alpha

Grant, Overvoid at the top

Relgious mandalla's this entire structure is based on ( Kabbalah and Buddhism ) both say Absolute is the Void field that the Creator Gods came out of.

Absolute Void > Ayin's > Creator God Yahweh.

Your group looked all of this and said nah, lets flip this and tell everyone the Creator God > The Ain > The Absolute.

Lets tap the 180 degree spin button on the mandallah map and say the Absolute is at the bottom and the Creator God is at the top. And the mods originally didn't even listen to you guys on this and were on my side of it.

Then after this, for some reason, some power users started grouping together and thwarted the truth to the point that revisions were made that placed the Presence above the Overvoid, and to this very day, there are still people who firmly believe the Presence is beyond the Overvoid.

And to this very day, there are still users who think the Lucifer White Void is the Overvoid.

Lucifer says this void is not nonbeing and not nonexistence

The Overvoid is nondual, nonexistence, where even concepts cannot go and will cease entirely to exist because the Overvoid it the Absolute unmanifest field.

Yet once more, you and your group inverted this and got the wiki's changed on it for a long, long time. I am very happy the current Overvoid bio states that it is the unmanifest field

But it needs a ton of revision to reflect accuracy on the Overvoid entry.


1. Range is complex multiversal? Yet it contains infinite Multiverses from not just DC, but all other fictive properties?

2. It states its what holds all stories within itself, but that is the Flaw, not the Overvoid. The Overvoid contains the Flaw and this is a technicality phrasing that both fits and doesn't fit. The Flaw is what holds all stories but that is contained by the Overvoid.

3. The Overvoid is not a manifestation of God. All the other emanations are the God Creators. Not the Absolute. Direct from Maharishi



"God is not the Absolute" God comes from the Absolute. God is an emanation from the Absolute. And God the Presence in DC isn't the Ain Soph Aurr, the Source is.

Mandrakk is the only anything that is a part of the Absolute and you downplayed this for years and still do. All of this data is meaningless to you and your group hides each time I pop in every few months or years to refresh your memory that you denounce all of this.

Tons of authors debunked you. Comics show clearly what the hierarchy is? Even a guidemap that cites Yahweh's name directly and you find a way to try to deny it?

Still not good enough, who needs guidebooks right?

All this data, so much of it, and your group just crosses their arms and will cite the opposite because you found a group that only wants their bestie's and favs at the top. Its not about being an educator to you, or those who agree with you. Its not about having higher ethical standards on how to discuss and talk about objective information. Its just about feeling better that you've a group around you that doesnt care about that, and wants the same characters listed at the top that you do.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Tons of authors debunked you. Comics show clearly what the hierarchy is? Even a guidemap that cites Yahweh's name directly and you find a way to try to deny it?

Still not good enough, who needs guidebooks right?

All this data, so much of it, and your group just crosses their arms and will cite the opposite because you found a group that only wants their bestie's and favs at the top. Its not about being an educator to you, or those who agree with you. Its not about having higher ethical standards on how to discuss and talk about objective information. Its just about feeling better that you've a group around you that doesnt care about that, and wants the same characters listed at the top that you do.

OK, so lemme point this out.

Elohim is plural there and it EXPLICLTLY is being used to refer to multiple gods, not the Presence.

The full sentence is "And the gods of Oceania, Mesopotamia and Egypt, the Loal and the Elohim are all gathered here, each with a peak of their own"

The context there infers they're using Elohim as a plural to describe a pantheon of gods.

Now, while Elohim CAN and often does refer to God, it's never been done in DC, and Elohim can also be used to describe multiple gods or angels. The word in Hebrew literally means "gods" plural (Singular: Eloah) and is used in several places in the Bible to refer to angels and deitites:

1 Samuel 28 uses it to refer to the unseen spirits, Genesis 35:7 uses it to refer to angels, as do most of the book of Psalms. In the Talmund as well, it's used to refer to the Seventh Choir of angels.

I'm....actually not sure how you missed that one, as it's really clear in this case it's referring to a pantheon of multiple deities, not a singular one. Even if it only mean the Presence, that doesn't really fit the rest of the sentence, as each one is specifically a PANTHEON, only to single out a single individual? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Tarang123]

Years out now from the first time you said this to me and you are still ducking providing any evidence to it. Nobody has ever showed that it contradicts. You just say it and run, then months later I remember you are still around and I post something, only for you to return to posting that same line and not backing it up.

Evidence was already provided. So no, nothing has been "ducked". Second, I have never once avoided showing evidence or backing my points up. Don't blatantly lie lol. And yes, people have. You lacking the ability to read properly is not our problem.

The Presence was almost murked by the Parliaments once, the Presence was made manifest after Creations started,

Which has nothing to do with this current thread. Make your own thread to change the ratings if you want. This is specifically about the Overvoid's transduality.

The Void predates the Creator

It says the void is the "true God", not the void before God.

1. Range is complex multiversal? Yet it contains infinite Multiverses from not just DC, but all other fictive properties?

We don't take those things into account. Otherwise, we'd be considering things like SCP which have the same things, which are arguably even more descriptive than DC ever was, Dark Tower, Marvel, and other such properties. As well as that, an infinite number of multiverses is 2A. Nothing more, nothing less.

3. The Overvoid is not a manifestation of God. All the other emanations are the God Creators. Not the Absolute. Direct from Maharishi

Show evidence from the story, not from what some guy who probably doesn't even know what the **** the Overvoid is.

Tons of authors debunked you. Comics show clearly what the hierarchy is? Even a guidemap that cites Yahweh's name directly and you find a way to try to deny it?

Authors hold virtually no ground in comparison to the established story. The author can say whatever they want. Hell, they could say that Batman was stronger than the Overvoid. That doesn't make it true if the story doesn't support it. And unfortunately for you, 99% of your ridiculous claims are unsupported by the comics.

"pre-adaptation", "beyond fiction", etc. We've all heard the same debunked clown-tier arguments again and again. Stop derailing the thread with your nonsense and stay focused. If you can't do that, then you can quite frankly leave.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Holly Black. The Presence is dead.

Holly Black made it exceedingly clear that The Presence engineered the whole Dark Presence thing in her Imaginary axis interview, and whether he is truly limitlessly Omnipotent is a 50/50. Dan Watters is an entire reboot

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Overvoid is at the top of the entire hierarchy, direct from the author, and I understand you don't care what the author says about anything unless they agree with you.

MJ on his CV arc

 

[MichaelJZero]

Oh by the way, since you all here who hate me loveeeeeeeee to use guidebooks elsewhere, like from Marvel, or handbooks from World Of Darkness to justify yourselves...here is a fun one.

Here is Grant and the Guidebook differentiating the Source with the Overvoid. Saying some worlds and concepts shoot into the Overmind, and others, to the Source.

Here is Grant saying Earth 33 is entirely outside of the DCU.

Here is that Earth 33 is entirely outside of the DCU and contains everything, and also that Earth 33 does not exist above the Overvoid.

Grant in late 2022 saying the Overvoid is at the top of the hierarchy

Overvoid and the Source, indisputable proof that the Overvoid isn't the Source in that sense that some debaters insist. The Source and the Overvoid are twice separated in this guidebook as separate " places" that some things eject to and then become meaningless. Some might go to the Overvoid and stop meaning anything. Some others may go to the Source, and also stop meaning things too.

Waitress! I'll have the Debunk Special with extra cheddar.

 

[Deagonx]

For anyone curious as to what Grant actually thinks, he's consistently said that he considers the Source and Overvoid identical.

Of course, we've known that since the Multiversity Map told us they were just two names for the same thing

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Welp, considering we do make a big hooplah if Grant believes in something Snyder and Tynion do not, both of them consider the Source as an infinite energy source at the centre of the Greater Omniverse. We should also just accept that there is contradictions between these three

 

[Deagonx]

Welp, considering we do make a big hooplah if Grant believes in something Snyder and Tynion do not, both of them consider the Source as an infinite energy source at the centre of the Greater Omniverse. We should also just accept that there is contradictions between these three

It's similar to the trinity in Christianity. They may not share perfectly identical characteristics, but they are meant to be interpreted as a co-equal God head.