New DBS speed scale (Insanely fast)

[AKM sama]

Goku breaking his limits so much that it broke his body just to damage Zamasu

This scene is proof that Zamasu here is not very much stronger than SSB Goku. The point is Goku can still harm him by using either his full power in Blue or stacking kaioken, which wouldn't have been the case if Zamasu was massively stronger.

Also, Zamasu powered up MASSIVELY after Goku damaged him when he was in his half-corrupted state, and Gowasu literally stated they would need a power far greater than the combined efforts of SSBKK Goku and SSB Vegeta to defeat Fused Zamasu, which is by fusing into Vegito

In the second video you linked Vegeta asks what's going on. What you are referring to as a "massive" power up here, is just Zamasu's body becoming unstable as explained by Gowasu (no mention of his power increasing), which provides a chance for the Saiyans to defeat him in his own words. But of course they need a stronger power because Goku even in his full power wasn't able to finish him off. In his words, they needed "an even greater power" to hit him. Not "FAR greater" as you claimed.

Also, Vegeta and Trunks never harmed Fused Zamasu

But they held his powerful attack back, which makes them scale somewhat. And here's a video where unamped Trunks manages to block hits from Zamasu and even slices his body twice. So even if you claim Zamasu grew stronger, he obviously did not grow massively stronger.

The point of this is not to show that SSB Vegito is somehow equal to SSB Goku. The point is that Vegito's portayal is inconsistent and he is definitely not shown to be THOUSANDS of times stronger than SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, Ikari Trunks and Fusion Zamasu, who were around the same ballpark and the difference in their strengths, while present, was not that massive.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This scene is proof that Zamasu here is not very much stronger than SSB Goku. The point is Goku can still harm him by using either his full power in Blue or stacking kaioken, which wouldn't have been the case if Zamasu was massively stronger.


In the second video you linked Vegeta asks what's going on. What you are referring to as a "massive" power up here, is just Zamasu's body becoming unstable as explained by Gowasu (no mention of his power increasing), which provides a chance for the Saiyans to defeat him in his own words. But of course they need a stronger power because Goku even in his full power wasn't able to finish him off. In his words, they needed "an even greater power" to hit him. Not "FAR greater" as you claimed.

The point of this is not to show that SSB Vegito is somehow equal to SSB Goku. The point is that Vegito's portayal is inconsistent and he is definitely not shown to be THOUSANDS of times stronger than SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, Ikari Trunks and Fusion Zamasu, who were around the same ballpark and the difference in their strengths, while present, was not that massive.

Zamasu was still off guard and very surprised when Goku used the kaioken on him. Keep in mind that Zamasu is extremely arrogant and cannot possibly think

Also, Zamasu was pretty clearly powering up there. It's literally no different than any other powering up in the show. Thr only thing that refers to his unstable form is his arm mutating while his mental state is gradually worsening, which is what actually causes him to become corrupted

But they held his powerful attack back, which makes them scale somewhat. And here's a video where unamped Trunks manages to block hits from Zamasu and even slices his body twice. So even if you claim Zamasu grew stronger, he obviously did not grow massively stronger.

That is a pretty clear outlier for Trunks, as he was just using SSJ there, not even the Ikari form

 

[AKM sama]

Zamasu was still off guard

Zamasu being off-guard against a foe that just blasted half of his body a second ago and whose leg he's already holding at the moment..... that.... makes no sense. Look, there is very little excuse for bad writing and I know the power scaling has been all over the place in this arc and even in the ToP. But when bad writing affects scaling in such a massive way, we can't simply ignore it.

That is a pretty clear outlier for Trunks, as he was just using SSJ there, not even the Ikari form

You can see the blue glow of Ikari when he blocks. He is clearly in Ikari form. Lack of aura a second later doesn't mean he suddenly powered down to ssj form.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Zamasu being off-guard against a foe that just blasted half of his body a second ago and whose leg he's already holding at the moment..... that.... makes no sense. Look, there is very little excuse for bad writing and I know the power scaling has been all over the place in this arc and even in the ToP. But when bad writing affects scaling in such a massive way, we can't simply ignore it.


You can see the blue glow of Ikari when he blocks. He is clearly in Ikari form. Lack of aura a second later doesn't mean he suddenly powered down to ssj form.

Zamasu literally broke every limb of Goku after striking him when Zamasu was damaged by Goku's attack. He was shocked that Goku could harm him, which allowed Goku to land few kicks at him (as his arms were broken), but then Zamasu got his composure back and grabbed one of Goku's legs and broke it. Zamasu certainly did NOT excepted Goku to still fight, and use the Kaioken on top of it, when he likely expected Goku to fall to the ground being unable to fight, he also literally says: "what?" with a shocked expression as Goku breaks free from him and kicks him with his healthy leg

Also, that was all before Fused Zamasu powered up after this, to which Gowasu stated they would need an even greater power to win, which made Goku realize that fusion is their only option. Goku later states that without fusion, they can't beat him, even though Goku already broke his limits, and have Kaioken to increase his power even further

I would admit I was wtong on the second part, but even then, it's still an outlier as Trunks is still miles below even the held back version of Fused Zamasu with the halo, let alone a full powered Fused Zamasu that held his own against Vegito Blue (though Zamasu was pretty clearly outmatched)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Gilad_Hyperstar you do realize throughout the entire fight Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Zamasu get stronger out of nowhere because of their saiyain DNA right? It's like you're trying to ignore that thing exists.

Goku later states that without fusion, they can't beat him, even though Goku already broke his limits, and have Kaioken to increase his power even further

This was after Zamasu got his purple arm. Did you forget the entire reason he transformed in the first place? If Zamasu was secretly as stron as you're saying then he wouldn't have needed to lose his temper and turned into a deformed monster when he could've just powered up.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Gilad_Hyperstar you do realize throughout the entire fight Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Zamasu get stronger out of nowhere because of their saiyain DNA right? It's like you're trying to ignore that thing exists.

When exactly did that happened? Yes zenkais are a thing, and Goku and Vegeta likely got a zenkai after they were beaten by Fused Zamasu, but their potency are very inconsistent (especially after the Frieza Saga), so you can't really assume the potency of the zenaki without feats claiming as such.

This was after Zamasu got his purple arm. Did you forget the entire reason he transformed in the first place? If Zamasu was secretly as stron as you're saying then he wouldn't have needed to lose his temper and turned into a deformed monster when he could've just powered up.

No it wasn't. Zamasu transformed into his half-corrupted form after Goku's blast caught him by surprise, and only later (after his halo broke and Goku used SSBKK against him) he powered up IN his half corrupted form against Goku

You also seem to forget Zamasu is incredibly arrogant and he thought no mortals could even approach his power, which caused him to hold back against the Saiyans, and it led to his undoing when Goku broke his limits

 

[KLOL506]

No.

Even SSJRyu1's proposed Gogeta scaling doesn't get this far. Maybe we should wait until that thread happens.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

When exactly did that happened? Yes zenkais are a thing, and Goku and Vegeta likely got a zenkai after they were beaten by Fused Zamasu, but their potency are very inconsistent (especially after the Frieza Saga), so you can't really assume the potency of the zenaki without feats claiming as such.

They increase their strength in the middle of fights.

No it wasn't. Zamasu transformed into his half-corrupted form after Goku's blast caught him by surprise, and only later (after his halo broke and Goku used SSBKK against him) he powered up IN his half corrupted form against Goku

Here his face turns purple due to the damage he suffered from Goku's kamehameha. Here Zamasu uses the light of justice to power up. He straight up says "A weak god who cannot destroy evil is worthless!" After that, Goku get's the idea to fuse.

You also seem to forget Zamasu is incredibly arrogant and he thought no mortals could even approach his power, which caused him to hold back against the Saiyans, and it led to his undoing when Goku broke his limits

Yes he's incredibly arrogant. So tell me, with this level of arrogance why on earth would Zamasu allow Goku to humiliate him like that if he could just power up? Furthermore, if Zamasu was holding back, why did he need to call for the light of justice to carry him?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I don't know how to tell you this, except that SBG is NOT a thing. There is no mention of it in the canon and we have already gotten rid of it back in 2015-16. This is the year 2021. I can't believe people are still talking about SBG. Anyway, I suggest that you show the evidence from the anime directly rather than linking to a site moderated by fans. If you are making a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up directly. Not mine to look through a fan site and search for it. Even so, what you are referring to is a promotional poster that calls SSR Black's version of Super Saiyan. Which is not enough to assume that the multiplier is exactly the same when being Black's own version provides it a different color than a normal version of SSJ. Could be because Black is god, which is more reason to say that the form is different than normal, since it is Black's own different version of a pre-existing form. Not to mention no such statement exists in the anime and the boost it gives is portrayed miniscule in the anime. Black could easily smirk and fight SSB Vegeta in base and goes SSR and SSB Goku and Trunks were still able to hold their own.

Okay. In the anime after the BoG arc when training with whis inside his staff, Goku and Vegeta learn to extremely precise ki control to be able to move inside that dimension, and vegeta say that it's the secret to divine energy, that is them using the saiyan beyond god form, they don't gain divine energy but are able to sense it and gain access to the power of SSG. While training in this form they discover that this form is the path that will lead them to unlock SSB. Also this form is mentioned by toriyama in this interview stating that Goku has mastered the power of SSG and no longer needs to transform to use it's power which is the exact description of SBG. Now we know that transforming into a SSJ while in SBG makes you a SSB. In black's case in the manga, this form is black's variant of SSB, in the anime, blacks natural god ki allows him to use the SBG form (but dudes can still sense him so it proves that he was in SGB) so upon transforming into a SSJ in Goku's body he turns into a SSB/SSR which is why it's described as black's version of SSJ in the anime, this promotional poster also supports it. This all proves that black's SSR is a 50x multiplier in the anime. Nobody was able to beat black he wooped everyone until vegeta beat his ass post training.

Zamasu holding back is an unfounded excuse. Of course Zamasu was a bit stronger and both Saiyans had to completely use their powers to hurt him, so they had no other choice but to fuse. But as I already stated, the gap isn't that big. And yes, SSB Vegito was portrayed around the same ballpark as SSB Goku lmao. That is the inconsistency I have been pointing out from the start, given how Zamasu was harmed by SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta and Ikari Trunks, yet SSB Vegito who is supposed to be thousands of times stronger than them was equal to Zamasu.

That's not true, zamasu was clearly holding back, another guy already made soem great points, zamasu clearly beat everyone up, Goku only pushed back his attack because zamasu was being arrogant and holding back, and was damaged by his own attack and the kamehameha exploding on top of him and guess what, he was still fine, and the goku caught him off guard and zamasu still ended up grabing and crushing his leg, then Goku cought him off guard again with kaioken and kicked him and zamasu was fine again, then he powered up further. Zamasu was clearly far more powerful than anyone by a lot and examples like trunks harming him are clear outliers, that trunks would scale below SSR black yet you use this shit as evidence to downplay zamasu, and they even said that their only chance at winning was fusion, it's far more consistent to scale base vegito above SSBk10 Goku than it is to scale SSB vegito to SSB Goku wtf I can't believe I have to say this.

This is not extraordinary proof. This is just abuse of multipliers. It's called using the multipliers to exaggerate ratings when nothing in the show comes close to that level feat-wise. Even going to sextillions from quadrillions without showing anything else is a MASSIVE highball. MASSIVE. But it's accepted because I and other people have been lenient.

No it is proof. Listen, all I'm doing here is taking these huge ass ACCEPTED multipliers and assigning them to this huge ass scaling chain from the beginning of the show to it's end, it's not multiplier abuse (wtf even is that), it's not my fault the characters literally get this fast. Dudes out here making the argument that going from quadrillions to nonillions doesn't make sense, that is not my fault, I'm not exaggerating this scaling chain or the multipliers, the only difference between this scale and ryu's is that I added a few things he missed out in the scale, it's still the same thing, but for some reason you and others think it doesn't make sense if someone goes from quadillions to nonillions even though there's nothing contradicting it, it's just the multipliers and the scaling chain being huge. Lmao is being "lenient" another way of saying that you're downplaying? I'm logically low balling here because I'm not taking into account every single unknown power increase which super is riddled with.

No.

Even SSJRyu1's proposed Gogeta scaling doesn't get this far. Maybe we should wait until that thread happens.

Why not? He himself agreed with this, the reason this is higher is because he didn't use some stuff like SSR and Vegito blue on his scale but I'm using it here.

 

[KLOL506]

Somebody just close this thread, this is getting out of hand. Discussion of this should not even be a thing with the upcoming Gogeta scaling stuff.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Jesus Christ

Stacking multipliers should be banned

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Just saying using multipliers isn't bad if they're stated to exist and have an explicitly stated amount they multiply by. Using multipliers that have never been used or stated for certain things to scale up to this, lowball or not, is kind of ridiculous.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Just saying using multipliers isn't bad if they're stated to exist and have an explicitly stated amount they multiply by. Using multipliers that have never been used or stated for certain things to scale up to this, lowball or not, is ridiculous.

All the multipliers used here are accepted except SSR for now.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

All the multipliers used here are accepted except SSR for now.

Okay but do we have feats that put them anywhere near this?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Okay but do we have feats that put them anywhere near this?

The highest feat performed in super is the one we're scaling from which is 1.96x10^17 times FTL. But this feat happened at the very beginning of super, and since the multipliers are so large and the scaling chain for super is vast, the result ends up very big like you see. It's just the natural progression of speed in the story, in my opinion, the argument that I'm abusing multipliers or that this is a high ball is bad because of these reasons. All I'm doing is taking DBS's scaling chain and assigning them the accepted multipliers, it isn't my fault that the result is huge.

 

[AKM sama]

Stacking multipliers should be banned

With the pace the DB verse is abusing it to exaggerate speed ratings when no feat in the verse even comes close to the thousandth level of it, and threads like these keep popping up, I think this will soon be the case. These ratings need to be looked at more closely.

That's it for this thread though. I am closing it.