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Was talking about the 2x SSG and Jiren 2x Goku and Vegeta the rest are good.
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New DBS speed scale (Insanely fast)
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
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That's fine, so you agree?
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And even in the anime, SSR is not considered to be the same as SSB in terms of multipliers. SBG isn't a thing.
If it is portrayed as inconsistent, it does make the use of it highly questionable. Vegito was shown to be heavily nerfed by the story, so we can't use a hypothetical Vegito for scaling purposes. If something is inconsistent in terms of actual scaling, we obviously have to disregard that if we are talking about scaling.
No. Again, you conceded to the first point which is the same as this. Strength being 2x does not mean speed is also 2x. And I'd make a response about his strength not being 2x, but that is not needed here.
High ball is a watered down term. If something goes from quadrillions to nonillions without having to show a single shred of evidence, it's more akin to wank.
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Saiyan beyond God is in fact a thing, and it was used in canon in the RoF arc. Here's an article about it.
Well yeah it would be inconsistent if you scale zamasu to Goku as well, base vegito should be stronger than Goku, and that's consistent with every time fusion is used, so merged zamasu would be comparable to blue vegito, just because goku kicked zamasu doesn't mean he scales to him, zamasu could've been holding back, or it's possible he was gaining power and it's possible that goku's feats are outliers. You're the one who'd be scaling inconsistently if you want to scale vegito blue to slightly stronger than ssb goku.
Well no if he was keeping up with both of them at the same time it means his stats should be at least 2x theirs, in that case, only power was shown effected, but here all jirens stats need to be buffed because he was keeping up with two equal opponents.
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What do you mean no evidence lmao? These are accepted myltipliers, and I am just assigning them to the stupidly big and long scaling chain of super while still low balling. The reason for this post is because the current scale is missing a lot of power boost that can be added like fusion and black, if you disregard all these huge increases in power then you'd be the one who's downplaying.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Why are we scaling Fused Zamasu to Goku? It was very clear in the episode where Zamasu held back a lot while fighting Goku and Vegeta, as well as his extreme levels of arrogance thinking no mortal can even approach him, and it led to his undoing when Goku broke his limits so much that it pierced Zamasu's attack (while also breaking himself in the process)
Zamasu later powered up massively after Goku damaged him, and Gowasu stated they'll need a power far greater than the combined efforts of Goku and Vegeta to defeat him
So no, there's nothing inconsistent about Vegito
Zamasu later powered up massively after Goku damaged him, and Gowasu stated they'll need a power far greater than the combined efforts of Goku and Vegeta to defeat him
So no, there's nothing inconsistent about Vegito
The_Pink_God
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We live in a Timeline where DBS characters may be faster than Archie sonic :V
Agree btw
Agree btw
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dbs faster than a dude who's whole thing is speed lol.
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Nope. In Dragon Ball, speed and strength rise in conjunction, AKM.
Also, the description of Kaioken is explicitly called out as a raise in all form of stats by “X” number.
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Scale is mostly right, just a few thoughts
1. Why are we making base Goku Post BoG 2X speed his SSJG self. Is there proof he got 2x faster?
2. If we use the SSJR as a 50x multiplier, then it messes with the 10x boost from U6 arc to the Hit rematch, since that rematch happens after Zamasu arc, and if he is already 50x more, it wouldn't be necessary to make him have the 10x multiplier as well. Although it does net out an extra 5x boost regardless.
But from what I gather the wiki does not currently accept a multiplier for SSJR. The best argument about this I found is here, and imo it's obvious in anime that SSJR is SSJ, and in manga that it is treated as SSJB, but I'm not currently making CRT's.
3. The argument about base fusion > fusee strongest form is interesting, I can't think of an example where it is directly contradicted tbh, and it seems to be the case multiple times. I mean Trunks does slice fused Zamasu in half to beat him, but he is amped by genki energy, and Vegito Blue > Fused Zamasu, so imo it isn't contradictory, and Goku and Vegeta clearly can't beat a serious Fused Zamasu, hence why they needed to fuse. Then again its never directly stated either that "base fusion > fusee strongest form". I think it's consistent, and if it were accepted the numbers line up, although currently its not.
Basically to apply this scale you would need to get SSJR accepted as the same as the SSJ multiplier, get "base fusion > fusee strongest form" accepted, remove the 10x boost for the Hit rematch if SSJR multiplier is accepted, and explain or remove the 2x speed boost from SSJG to base post BoG.
For me personally I am fine with the scale, a couple jumps could be a bit more clear as to where they come from, but that can be easily fixed. If the 2x speed boost for SSJG to base is removed or proven, and the 10x Hit boost is removed, as it would be replaced by the SSJR multiplier.
If you decide to alter the scale let me know, and I have no problem making the relevant changes to the blog.
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Well the Daizenshuu did say this:
Fusion
First Appearance: Chapter 469
Category: special
People: Trunks & Goten
Special Characteristics: The specialty technique of the people of Planet Metamor. Goku learned this art from some people from Planet Metamor who he met in the afterlife. It is an art where two humans can merge together only if their power and body size are very close, and through merging the two users give birth to a separate person who possesses power and techniques far surpassing what they had on their own. When merging, the two users must perform the Fusion pose symmetrically; this pose if very embarrassing for two adults to perform. In the story, Trunks and Goten perform this Fusion, but they fail two times because their pose is slightly wrong. When they fail at this technique, it greatly changes the body type of the resulting person, making them fat or thin, and rather than strengthening the two users, it makes them weaker. The name after merging becomes a combination of the two users’ respective names, and in Trunks and Goten’s case, they ended up named Gotenks. Furthermore, after merging, their clothes are those of the citizens of Planet Metamor. (Daizenshuu 2, p.118/Daizenshuu 4, p.116)
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And people wonder why multipliers get a lot of flak…
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Yeah I’ll have to agree with AKM for now. This isn’t conservative at all.
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Here, if you give me a feat that’s even a hundredth of a percent of what’s being proposed here, I’ll agree.
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That's a good piece of evidence for sure. I feel given it is stated in Daizenshuu outright that they "possesses power and techniques far surpassing what they had on their own." that it substantiates the showings. UI seems to be the only real outlier, but then again Goku can't access it at will, so its questionable if it even applies honestly.
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It's nowhere in the canon. It's entirely headcanon made by fans at the time who thought Goku had two base forms. In the RoF, Goku only used his normal base form. Nothing else. The article is not official. Back in 2015-16, it used to be a thing in the wiki too, but we got rid of it during that period. It's not accepted here.
It's not Goku alone who was able to overpower Zamasu's attack in a long drawn out clash, that invalidates the argument of holding back. Vegeta and Trunks held their own too. Ikari Trunks managed to block a killing blow from Fusion Zamasu and even sliced his body twice before he got amped. Fusion Zamasu was portrayed many times to be around SSB levels, which should have been no problem for Base Vegito. Yet SSB Vegito had trouble with him. The entire Vegito portrayal was inconsistent and forced there, so I'd refrain from using him as a basis.
Not necessarily. Keeping up with two equally strong foes =/= being 2x stronger than any one of them. Goku and Vegeta never performed a combined attack on Jiren. They attacked him with individual punches and kicks. Now if Goku's punching power is 10 points and he is punching in Jiren's chest, same for Vegeta but he is punching in Jiren's gut, Jiren only needs to have 11 points for durability to easily survive both attacks. It's exactly like Goku punching with both fists at the same time, because at both places where he is punching, he is only landing an attack of magnitude 10, which could be overpowered with a durability of 11. Durability of magnitude 20 is not needed.
There was one moment where Goku and Vegeta shot him with continuous signature ki attacks, but that was also from 2 different directions, so assuming the same scenario, Jiren only needed to output a value of 11 to cancel the effects of those attacks on his body.
Regardless, even if you say his strength was 2x, that doesn't mean his speed is 2x too.
Not really. Even accepted multipliers can only be used to amplify stats to a certain extent. The concept of "extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence" applies everywhere. If you are claiming someone's speed to be millions of times faster than a previous feat, you need to provide extraordinary evidence, preferably in terms of feats. Otherwise, such huge increases can be ignored for lack of evidence.
I know that, and I stated that already. They rise with rise in power level. But there is no proof that they rise at the same rate. y=2x and y=x*x, both rise with the rise in the value of x but they rise with different rates. A 20x increase in the level of ki, might provide a 10x increase in strength and 5x increase in speed, for example, but all stats are still increasing, albeit at different rates. The relation is not one-to-one.
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Yeah UI seems to be an exception. It's probably because of the narrative behind it as it's the "Power not even the God's of Destruction possess" and such. Although Heroes seems to have Fusion and UI comparable if not outright stronger with UI Goku being stronger than Xeno Vegito 4 in the manga IIRC
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Yeah I need to change that.
Oh I forgot about that. The way this would impact the scale would be that SSB goku after the zamasu arc would be 5x stronger than his kaioken 10x state in the u6 tournament.
SSR is black's version of SSB but in the anime he uses saiyan beyond god so when he transforms into a SSJ he directly goes into his version of SSB.
Cool I'll fix the stuff and I'll count that as an agree.
No it's not, it's both in the anime and manga. The form is used in the manga and anime and in the article I linked they show references for the information. And besides in this article it goes into detail about SSR and literally proves that SSR is blacks version of SSJ in the anime and SSB in the manga. I suggest you read the relevant parts.
Someone already made the argument that zamasu was holding back and powered up further after goku surpasses his limits and pushes him back, and after zamasu powers up, they can't do anything but fuse, unless of course you are willing to scale blue vegito equal to SSB Goku lmao.
This is fair.
The proof is the huge power gap from the start of super to the end, which can be somewhat quantified with the help of multipliers, all the multiplier I use are accepted (except SSR for now but it's still true). It's undeniable the DBS cast get at least this fast.
Anyway I'll update the scale.
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Yes, but there are clear exceptions. Kaioken is explicitly stated to work the way it does by King Kai, (see his explanation on Kaioken), and Super Saiyan is treated like Kaioken but bigger number. And the only forms that prove your claim are the Grade 2-3 SSJ and Full Power Frieza form, both of which share the trait of artificially added muscle mass to increase strength at a decrease in speed-Purposely designed to empower but lessen mobility within the plot.
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I’ll repeat what I said earlier.
Find me a feat that’s even .01% of what’s being proposed and I’ll agree.
Find me a feat that’s even .01% of what’s being proposed and I’ll agree.
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There isn't except goku and beerus shockwaves traveling the whole macrocosm in 28 seconds. [Happened in manga too]
Whis traveling the universe in 10 seconds.
Champa traveling from U6 to U7 in a second.[manga only]
Topps hakai blast engulfing the wov in 10 seconds or less [the wov is either infinite or bigger than the 18 universes]
The constant trips of whis to zeno realm.
Hit traveling from U6 to U7 [I am not extra sure of this].
And even with the highest interputation this will get maybe some quadrillion c or something like that.
Whis traveling the universe in 10 seconds.
Champa traveling from U6 to U7 in a second.[manga only]
Topps hakai blast engulfing the wov in 10 seconds or less [the wov is either infinite or bigger than the 18 universes]
The constant trips of whis to zeno realm.
Hit traveling from U6 to U7 [I am not extra sure of this].
And even with the highest interputation this will get maybe some quadrillion c or something like that.
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Well there is the feat that we are using right now where an energy blast travels the whole macrocosm in 30 seconds, it's linked, and it's the closes thing to the value being proposed.
But that's not really important since we are just using accepted myltipliers to scale what happens after that feat which is literally the whole show btw, the difference between the current value and the one being proposed is so great because dragon ball multipliers are gigantic and dragon ball super scaling chain is huge, I hope you understand.
Dust_Collector
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Gonna toss my thoughts into the wind here, but jumping from quadrillions c to nonillions c based on multipliers and without a single feat that's even a thousandth of the proposed ratings, doesn't seem right.
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They decided to use the Wov as place away from the whole multiverse.
States to be an endless or infinite [mistranslation I heard]
I heard someone says that we accepted it to be above 18 universes in size but I need confirmation
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^ Just thank you good lord thank you
Thank you as well I’ll read your comic as a real thank you.
I disagree with the Op FRA
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Funnily enough, something gaining traction today is the new perception/reaction feat by Granolah in the Manga.
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Infinite speed makes more sense but I do agree with this.
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do you agree with original post?
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Kinda? I figure the number is lower, but the chain itself makes sense, except for the Rosé multiplier, which has already been handled, although I don’t know what we’ve settled on. I’m mostly neutral until more supporting evidence can be drummed up. Not counting the new manga feat, which has Granolah potentially reacting to Instant Transmission before Goku physically reappeared and materialized.
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What's wrong with the rose multiplier? I'll count it as an agree.
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I don't know how to tell you this, except that SBG is NOT a thing. There is no mention of it in the canon and we have already gotten rid of it back in 2015-16. This is the year 2021. I can't believe people are still talking about SBG. Anyway, I suggest that you show the evidence from the anime directly rather than linking to a site moderated by fans. If you are making a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up directly. Not mine to look through a fan site and search for it. Even so, what you are referring to is a promotional poster that calls SSR Black's version of Super Saiyan. Which is not enough to assume that the multiplier is exactly the same when being Black's own version provides it a different color than a normal version of SSJ. Could be because Black is god, which is more reason to say that the form is different than normal, since it is Black's own different version of a pre-existing form. Not to mention no such statement exists in the anime and the boost it gives is portrayed miniscule in the anime. Black could easily smirk and fight SSB Vegeta in base and goes SSR and SSB Goku and Trunks were still able to hold their own.
Zamasu holding back is an unfounded excuse. Of course Zamasu was a bit stronger and both Saiyans had to completely use their powers to hurt him, so they had no other choice but to fuse. But as I already stated, the gap isn't that big. And yes, SSB Vegito was portrayed around the same ballpark as SSB Goku lmao. That is the inconsistency I have been pointing out from the start, given how Zamasu was harmed by SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta and Ikari Trunks, yet SSB Vegito who is supposed to be thousands of times stronger than them was equal to Zamasu.
This is not extraordinary proof. This is just abuse of multipliers. It's called using the multipliers to exaggerate ratings when nothing in the show comes close to that level feat-wise. Even going to sextillions from quadrillions without showing anything else is a MASSIVE highball. MASSIVE. But it's accepted because I and other people have been lenient.
I was not talking about Kaioken and SSJ when I made that statement. Please read the whole thing.
PrinceofPein
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Well i am neutral but i have a question.
why is the speed of the universe destruction not infinite speed?
Or is the DB universe finite?
why is the speed of the universe destruction not infinite speed?
Or is the DB universe finite?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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No. He literally doesn't. You're confusing Anime canon with Manga canon. Fused Zamasu isn't comparable to SSB Goku AT ALL (It literally required Goku breaking his limits so much that it broke his body just to damage Zamasu, and even then it was mostly from his own attack exploding at him. And Goku also caught Zamasu off guard in that scene)
Also, Zamasu powered up MASSIVELY after Goku damaged him when he was in his half-corrupted state, and Gowasu literally stated they would need a power far greater than the combined efforts of SSBKK Goku and SSB Vegeta to defeat Fused Zamasu, which is by fusing into Vegito
Also I love how you mention that Zamasu holding back is unfounded, yet he literally shown to do that when again, he powered up after Goku hit him (after breaking his limits, and breaking himself in the process)
Also, Vegeta and Trunks never harmed Fused Zamasu, so I have no idea what are you talking about (Trunks did with the Sword of Hope, but that was boosted with everyone's energy similar to how a spirit bomb work and it is far above the normal capabilities of Trunks)
That is utterly wrong in every way. As I stated before, Zamasu literally powered up massively and was even stated by Gowasu to be FAR above anything the saiyans can do on their own
Also: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". You claim that SSB Vegito = SSB Goku (somehow). And you're going to need to prove your claim.
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Saiyan Beyond God has never been a form. As a concept, sure, you can say Goku taking the power of the first SSG transformation into the rest of his forms make him a Saiyan Beyond God, but it’s not a form or anything like that.
Also, Zamasu’s essence is divine and cannot be that of a mortal regardless of the circumstances. A normal Saiyan goes Super Saiyan, Zamasu goes SSR, which can be considered his “version” of Super Saiyan because a divine being always possesses divine ki, therefore he will never have a yellow-haired form.
Also, Zamasu’s essence is divine and cannot be that of a mortal regardless of the circumstances. A normal Saiyan goes Super Saiyan, Zamasu goes SSR, which can be considered his “version” of Super Saiyan because a divine being always possesses divine ki, therefore he will never have a yellow-haired form.
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