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The justifications for Neloth's ratings are bad to say the least. So let's begin.
Before making this thread, I previously asked people to provide proper justifications for his tier, but nobody could.
Let's break down the screenshot I provided. I want everyone to follow along.
Neloth is not "literally the most powerful mage of House Telvanni," his superiors are notably Archmagister Gothre and Divayth Fyr. House Telvanni is not some group of universal mages, their most powerful and noteworthy member is Divayth Fyr, who has very impressive feats, such as helping fight off a manifestation of Nocturnal that engulfed the Clockwork City, banishing an avatar of Sheogorath and his power reaching near divine levels. The gap between Fyr and every other mage in the house is too large to scale. So, Neloth merely being a member doesn't mean anything nor does he have feats that notably compare, only baseless claims. Also, nobody in the College of Winterhold individually came close to universal power.
The supposed Low 2-C feat apparently came from Neloth being killed by the Nerevarine in a side quest. This is a huge problem. Keep in mind, only the main questline and official DLC's are canon/said to 100% happen, with side quest being iffy on ever happening and only optional for the player to complete. This is demonstrated when Neloth appeared in the events of Skyrim, contradicting the side quest that allows the player to kill him along with others. Not only that, but Neloth's dialogue strongly suggest the event never happened, who called the Nerevarine a hero that saved them all.
Speculating/and or assuming Neloth has resurrection is just mere speculatio. Resisting Miraak's mind control is just resistance, not an AP feat (He did so through prep may I add). None of the dragons he fought were Low 2-C. He never fought Alduin, Miraak or Dovahkiin. The claims of legit dialogue are merely Neloth being full of himself. Therefore, he simply doesn't scale at all.
Now let's look at the profile itself
Attack Potency: Possibly Universe level+ (Claimed to be the strongest wizard The Dovahkiin would ever meet, and should they be the Archmage of the College of Winterhold he'll simply scoff at their position. When the Dovahkiin uses their Thu'um, Neloth answers sarcastically, and doesn't show to be impressed. Considered Miraak to be a rather formidable opponent, but ultimately more of a nuisance than an actual threat, and even believed himself as being able to teach him and said that Miraak would have been a curious apprentice)
"Claimed to be the strongest wizard The Dovahkiin would ever meet"
Not only is this a baseless claim, but when has ever "strongest wizard he'll meet" = comparable in power to Dovahkiin? He also said likely the greatest, and went on questioning the player who else they thought capable of inventing the staff enchanter. I'm sure Neloth is fully aware there are far greater mages and inventions out there, but has too much pride to admit it. His word alone should be taken with a grain of salt.
"and should they be the Archmage of the College of Winterhold he'll simply scoff at their position"
Keep in mind, the majority of mages who become the Archmage of the College of Winterhold are nowhere near universal, that's reserved for members of the Psijic Order, which include the likes of Mannimarco who's responsible for the Soul Burst and Ritemaster Iachesis, who was the leader of the Order and made wards strong enough to resist the power of Mephala and Clavicus Vile for a short period of time. See the difference?
Here's the actual quote too
"Winterhold? That small college that is falling into the Sea of Ghosts? You're the one that recovered the Staff of Magnus. Impressive. Talvas should finish his apprenticeship in a couple of decades. Come see me then. I think I could teach you a trick or two."
"When the Dovahkiin uses their Thu'um, Neloth answers sarcastically, and doesn't show to be impressed"
Is this seriously a justification? That's literally his personality and reaction to everything. Just listen to his dialogue, and you'll see what I mea
"Considered Miraak to be a rather formidable opponent, but ultimately more of a nuisance than an actual threat, and even believed himself as being able to teach him and said that Miraak would have been a curious apprentice"
Neloth did consider Miraak an actual threat, I don't know where the idea of him brushing the latter off came from. If we look at the context, nuisance meant problem/and or threat.
No, he didn't believe he could teach him, he merely speculated the hypothetical idea of what Miraak would be like as an apprentice. I have no idea why this is treated as some sort of justification for his rating.
Speed: Possibly Immeasurable (Is supposed to be comparable to the Dovahkiin and Miraak. Kept up with the Nerevarine, and should be able to match Divayth Fyr and a weakened Vivec)
Absolutely not. Neloth has never displayed any sort of immeasurable feat. He's never time traveled through sheer speed nor does he exist out linear time, and comparing him to gods that explicitly describe their nature as timeless beings that exist out linear time, perceive it non-linearly and have literally shown to take people outside it is very disrespectful.
What do I propose then?
He should be superior to the dragons he fought, a minor Daedra lord who was about to destroy half of Glenumbra, an Altmer who can raise islands & ships and Marien Sella.
Speed should be At least Massively Hypersonic+
This is far more safer in my opinion. Discuss.
Before making this thread, I previously asked people to provide proper justifications for his tier, but nobody could.
Let's break down the screenshot I provided. I want everyone to follow along.
Neloth is not "literally the most powerful mage of House Telvanni," his superiors are notably Archmagister Gothre and Divayth Fyr. House Telvanni is not some group of universal mages, their most powerful and noteworthy member is Divayth Fyr, who has very impressive feats, such as helping fight off a manifestation of Nocturnal that engulfed the Clockwork City, banishing an avatar of Sheogorath and his power reaching near divine levels. The gap between Fyr and every other mage in the house is too large to scale. So, Neloth merely being a member doesn't mean anything nor does he have feats that notably compare, only baseless claims. Also, nobody in the College of Winterhold individually came close to universal power.
The supposed Low 2-C feat apparently came from Neloth being killed by the Nerevarine in a side quest. This is a huge problem. Keep in mind, only the main questline and official DLC's are canon/said to 100% happen, with side quest being iffy on ever happening and only optional for the player to complete. This is demonstrated when Neloth appeared in the events of Skyrim, contradicting the side quest that allows the player to kill him along with others. Not only that, but Neloth's dialogue strongly suggest the event never happened, who called the Nerevarine a hero that saved them all.
Speculating/and or assuming Neloth has resurrection is just mere speculatio. Resisting Miraak's mind control is just resistance, not an AP feat (He did so through prep may I add). None of the dragons he fought were Low 2-C. He never fought Alduin, Miraak or Dovahkiin. The claims of legit dialogue are merely Neloth being full of himself. Therefore, he simply doesn't scale at all.
Now let's look at the profile itself
Attack Potency: Possibly Universe level+ (Claimed to be the strongest wizard The Dovahkiin would ever meet, and should they be the Archmage of the College of Winterhold he'll simply scoff at their position. When the Dovahkiin uses their Thu'um, Neloth answers sarcastically, and doesn't show to be impressed. Considered Miraak to be a rather formidable opponent, but ultimately more of a nuisance than an actual threat, and even believed himself as being able to teach him and said that Miraak would have been a curious apprentice)
"Claimed to be the strongest wizard The Dovahkiin would ever meet"
Not only is this a baseless claim, but when has ever "strongest wizard he'll meet" = comparable in power to Dovahkiin? He also said likely the greatest, and went on questioning the player who else they thought capable of inventing the staff enchanter. I'm sure Neloth is fully aware there are far greater mages and inventions out there, but has too much pride to admit it. His word alone should be taken with a grain of salt.
"and should they be the Archmage of the College of Winterhold he'll simply scoff at their position"
Keep in mind, the majority of mages who become the Archmage of the College of Winterhold are nowhere near universal, that's reserved for members of the Psijic Order, which include the likes of Mannimarco who's responsible for the Soul Burst and Ritemaster Iachesis, who was the leader of the Order and made wards strong enough to resist the power of Mephala and Clavicus Vile for a short period of time. See the difference?
Here's the actual quote too
"Winterhold? That small college that is falling into the Sea of Ghosts? You're the one that recovered the Staff of Magnus. Impressive. Talvas should finish his apprenticeship in a couple of decades. Come see me then. I think I could teach you a trick or two."
"When the Dovahkiin uses their Thu'um, Neloth answers sarcastically, and doesn't show to be impressed"
Is this seriously a justification? That's literally his personality and reaction to everything. Just listen to his dialogue, and you'll see what I mea
"Considered Miraak to be a rather formidable opponent, but ultimately more of a nuisance than an actual threat, and even believed himself as being able to teach him and said that Miraak would have been a curious apprentice"
Neloth did consider Miraak an actual threat, I don't know where the idea of him brushing the latter off came from. If we look at the context, nuisance meant problem/and or threat.
No, he didn't believe he could teach him, he merely speculated the hypothetical idea of what Miraak would be like as an apprentice. I have no idea why this is treated as some sort of justification for his rating.
Speed: Possibly Immeasurable (Is supposed to be comparable to the Dovahkiin and Miraak. Kept up with the Nerevarine, and should be able to match Divayth Fyr and a weakened Vivec)
Absolutely not. Neloth has never displayed any sort of immeasurable feat. He's never time traveled through sheer speed nor does he exist out linear time, and comparing him to gods that explicitly describe their nature as timeless beings that exist out linear time, perceive it non-linearly and have literally shown to take people outside it is very disrespectful.
What do I propose then?
He should be superior to the dragons he fought, a minor Daedra lord who was about to destroy half of Glenumbra, an Altmer who can raise islands & ships and Marien Sella.
Speed should be At least Massively Hypersonic+
This is far more safer in my opinion. Discuss.
