KNULL DOWNGRADE

[Roirr]

As I said before there is no concrete evidence in the thread and even when I refuted your main arguments your only response was to ask the same questions (where is this mentioned or where is that mentioned) and when I asked you for concrete evidence instead you accused me of fallacy whereas repeating yourself or insulting me with my past when I asked you for concrete evidence is fallacy.

 

[Roirr]

Yes, tier does not necessarily come from 1v1 fights, but where you mentioned, there is no closeness or superiority in terms of Knull's dura/ap, so additional context is needed to get a scale from here.

I have already looked at the visual, I am telling you that in the visual it is only mentioned that it has infinite power, there is nothing about there being infinite amount, never-ending energy.
Moreover, even if it were, it would not give durable and striking strength because it does this with environmental destruction.
So when knull overcomes his dura and defeats him, it doesn't scale because it is with environmental destruction, which is okay since it doesn't even do with environmental destruction, because it is a momentary power.

Don't you know what immearsuble means dude? No additional context is needed to scale from here, knull exceeds the dura of Thor who uses the same power, knull already had the upper hand in that fight even though he didn't have the all black necroswor, the image in question states that the power is imme, which means that this power is even higher than infinity


Just because Thor uses this power for environmental destruction doesn't mean he can't use it in one on one combat. This is not an instantaneous power if you know the difference between imme and infinite :,D

 

[Protector_Hunk]

As I said before there is no concrete evidence in the thread and even when I refuted your main arguments your only response was to ask the same questions (where is this mentioned or where is that mentioned) and when I asked you for concrete evidence instead you accused me of fallacy whereas repeating yourself or insulting me with my past when I asked you for concrete evidence is fallacy.

What are you saying bro, I think you didn't answer properly, so I'm asking again and again.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Don't you know what immearsuble means dude? No additional context is needed to scale from here, knull exceeds the dura of Thor who uses the same power, knull already had the upper hand in that fight even though he didn't have the all black necroswor, the image in question states that the power is imme, which means that this power is even higher than infinity


Just because Thor uses this power for environmental destruction doesn't mean he can't use it in one on one combat. This is not an instantaneous power if you know the difference between imme and infinite :,D

I see that there is so much power, I say that this power is not the amount of energy.
When he says imme power there, he doesn't mention it in terms of quantity, which requires something beyond imme power to kill a being like Black Winter, and if this power is still in Thor, why aren't there blue lights again?
Because it is a power that comes suddenly.
It is more logical to think that when they say imme power there, Herald of None means that Thor has imme power in direct power rather than in terms of energy amount.

 

[Da3ggman]

Seems fine at a glance; I agree.

 

[Roirr]

I see that there is so much power, I say that this power is not the amount of energy.
When he says imme power there, he doesn't mention it in terms of quantity, which requires something beyond imme power to kill a being like Black Winter, and if this power is still in Thor, why aren't there blue lights again?
Because it is a power that comes suddenly.
It is more logical to think that when they say imme power there, Herald of None means that Thor has imme power in direct power rather than in terms of energy amount.

There's nothing to show that he said it in the sense you're talking about, and even if he did, it doesn't change what I'm saying, and black winter didn't die anyway.

As for the situation that shows this, in the fight with knul, Thor's suit was glowing because of the same cosmic power, and marvel confirmed that Thor has this power.

 

[Yuhady123]

In the Thor 2020 series, it was stated that the power of the herald is immeasurable, which means that the power is at least infinite. Thor's use of this power against black winter does not mean that this power ends with him, because the power in question is a power even above the infinite level.

Thor used the power cosmic he absorbed from amplified-galactus and used All of it to amplified his lighting attack to destroy Black Winter. It was directly stated in the issue.

And thor used the power in question for other characters after the black winter incident, for example knull /Immortal hulk etc. So the power in question has never decreased in thor. thor used it whenever he wanted and to the extent he wanted.

Only the small portion of it that left

As for Multi Eternity, any person with a basic knowledge of cosmology would understand this.The expression all time and all space represents all space and time, in short, the single universes hierarchy. The single universes hierarchy is the body of multi Eternity.

In addition, marvel sources stated that knull is a threat to the whole creation.

Can you give us the full explanation whether this "All space-time" and "Whole Creation" refer to Uni-Eternity or Multi-Eternity.

There is no contradiction or any evidence in this thread that would prevent Knull from being a threat that could destroy multi Eternity just like black winter. Knull's existence comes from toba, so the threat it poses cannot be a contradiction.

Im pretty sceptical with this scan being used. Banner only theorized him possibly being part of toba, and the idea was never brought or talk about in the future. Even so coming from High 1-A entity doesnt guarantee you being High 1-A.

For now I remaint neutral, but I suggest we add "possibly" as the scans and the arguments for the tier is inconsistence and had some flaw.

 

[Roirr]

Thor used the power cosmic he absorbed from amplified-galactus and used All of it to amplified his lighting attack to destroy Black Winter. It was directly stated in the issue.

Only the small portion of it that left

Can you give us the full explanation whether this "All space-time" and "Whole Creation" refer to Uni-Eternity or Multi-Eternity.

Im pretty sceptical with this scan being used. Banner only theorized him possibly being part of toba, and the idea was never brought or talk about in the future. Even so coming from High 1-A entity doesnt guarantee you being High 1-A.

For now I remaint neutral, but I suggest we add "possibly" as the scans and the arguments for the tier is inconsistence and had some flaw.

Immeaning that just because you use all of a power does not mean that it is finished. This power cannot remain very little because it is an imme level power. What we call the whole creation is already multi Eternity. As for the Toba incident, I can explain it by giving other examples

 

[Yuhady123]

Immeaning that just because you use all of a power does not mean that it is finished. This power cannot remain very little because it is an imme level power.

Yes and the scan stated he used ALL OF IT. If he was shown using the power cosmic in later that mean he still have a small amount it. the word immeasurable can mean the capacity or the sum total. The scan used immea not because the amount of it but its capacity to destroyed High 1-A entity.

What we call the whole creation is already multi Eternity.

N O

As for the Toba incident, I can explain it by giving other examples

Please doing so

And thor used the power in question for other characters after the black winter incident, for example knull /Immortal hulk etc. So the power in question has never decreased in thor. thor used it whenever he wanted and to the extent he wanted.

By your letter, your're saying that the Hulk should be upgrade to High 1-A because he tanked Thor power cosmic attack?

 

[Roirr]

Yes and the scan stated he used ALL OF IT. If he was shown using the power cosmic in later that mean he still have a small amount it. the word immeasurable can mean the capacity or the sum total. The scan used immea not because the amount of it but its capacity to destroyed High 1-A entity.

There is nothing to indicate that this is stated in the sense you say, that is conjecture. Thor uses this power when and how much he needs to.

If you have a discord, I prefer to explain the toba event there

 

[Yuhady123]

There is nothing to indicate that this is stated in the sense you say, that is conjecture. Thor uses this power when and how much he needs to.

Do you even understand what immeasurable mean? Nothing, its depending on the situation. Throughout 1 to 5 issues they just talk about its destruction capacities not the amounts of it. the scans you used and the issues directly prove my point. Include with the scans stated he can manipulate the power cosmic to disprove my point.

N O

By your letter, your're saying that the Hulk should be upgrade to High 1-A because he tanked Thor power cosmic attack?

You have to reply to this

If you have a discord, I prefer to explain the toba event there

Just explain it here.

I want you to include with the scans to support your arguments not with just the letters.

 

[Roirr]

Do you even understand what immeasurable mean? Nothing, its depending on the situation. Throughout 1 to 5 issues they just talk about its destruction capacities not the amounts of it. the scans you used and the issues directly prove my point. Include with the scans stated he can manipulate the power cosmic to disprove my point.


You have to reply to this

Just explain it here.

I want you to include with the scans to support your arguments not with just the letters.

No. I have already explained above that this is not the case. You have not provided any evidence that this power is diminishing. I have provided a scan that shows that it can't.

As for the hulk situation, he doesn't use most of his power against the hulk, at least not like what happened with black winter or knull.

 

[Yuhady123]

I'm afraid I cant continue this conversations. Have been busy doing the homeworks lately. But now I'm agree to downgrade Knull since the arguments is weak and there isn't new stuffs was brought up and explained.

Ok

Ask Antvasima to tag other members.

 

[Roirr]

I'm afraid I cant continue this conversations. Have been busy doing the homeworks lately. But now I'm agree to downgrade Knull since the arguments is weak and there isn't new stuffs was brought up and explained.

Ask Antvasima to tag other members.

There is nothing weak here, let's be realistic, there is no evidence to discredit the character in question in this thread, there are only questions, which are meaningless

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Immeaning that just because you use all of a power does not mean that it is finished. This power cannot remain very little because it is an imme level power. What we call the whole creation is already multi Eternity. As for the Toba incident, I can explain it by giving other examples

Okay, but there's no scale where, while fighting knull, thor still releases the same amount of energy to knull as he did to winter again and knull tanks it, or in any way gets all the energy that was thrown at black winter.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Do you even understand what immeasurable mean? Nothing, its depending on the situation. Throughout 1 to 5 issues they just talk about its destruction capacities not the amounts of it. the scans you used and the issues directly prove my point. Include with the scans stated he can manipulate the power cosmic to disprove my point.

yes I've been saying this since morning but my friend unfortunately ignores it, frankly I still think knull should be downgraded to High 1B, even though I like the character...

 

[Protector_Hunk]

No. I have already explained above that this is not the case. You have not provided any evidence that this power is diminishing. I have provided a scan that shows that it can't.

As for the hulk situation, he doesn't use most of his power against the hulk, at least not like what happened with black winter or knull.

dude but you still haven't even shown knull unleashing all his power like he unleashed all his power on black winter and knull tanking him or NOTHING that will scale from that energy

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Ask Antvasima to tag other members.

ok. (again)

 

[Protector_Hunk]

There is nothing weak here, let's be realistic, there is no evidence to discredit the character in question in this thread, there are only questions, which are meaningless

You keep saying that your arguments are absurd when you are talking properly, and frankly that makes me sad. What makes me sadder is that you still can't offer anything, in my opinion, to what you call absurd.

 

[Roirr]

dude but you still haven't even shown knull unleashing all his power like he unleashed all his power on black winter and knull tanking him or NOTHING that will scale from that energy

It doesn't need to use all of it to be high 1a, even storm is now high 1a. Even though he's a mutant.

Knull doesn't use all his power in that fight man, unlike Thor, he doesn't attack to kill. He also doesn't have all black necrosword. You are talking about proof even though I threw you proof, you stated that this power has decreased a lot and you did not throw a proof about it, and I proved to you with 1 panel that this power can never decrease, but yes we do not provide proof

 

[Barbar01]

disagree FRA

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @LuciferX @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Ultima_Reality

Your help would be appreciated here.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

It doesn't need to use all of it to be high 1a, even storm is now high 1a. Even though he's a mutant.

Knull doesn't use all his power in that fight man, unlike Thor, he doesn't attack to kill. He also doesn't have all black necrosword. You are talking about proof even though I threw you proof, you stated that this power has decreased a lot and you did not throw a proof about it, and I proved to you with 1 panel that this power can never decrease, but yes we do not provide proof

Thor gathered all his energy and unleashed it, and the black winter crumbled to the ground.
That much energy only happened when he turned blue, and you haven't answered almost any of my arguments.
You still haven't shown anything that will scale from the energy that destroyed that black winter to the energy that knull released to knull and knull tanked it, just like he did to black winter again with environmental destruction.
What thor already did to black winter is environmental destruction, neither dura/neither striking strenght.
In order for Knull to scale, try to show something that will completely tank the explosion on that black winter and scale like that.
I didn't say there is no evidence, I said it's not enough, and here you are resorting to straw man fallacy.
You show the blue energies that come out when you fight with knull.
Do you think these look like the lights when fighting black winter?
You have already responded to 1 of the 3 arguments I presented, and that one is straw man fallacy, let's not talk anymore and let the admins talk.
Anyway, if you still answer my arguments after this, there will be backtracking.
Regards...

 

[Eseseso]

Could someone explain the arguments for keeping High 1-A?

 

[Kaandnyy]

First of all, I agree that power is immeasurable, but I remain neutral because I don't think he attacked Knull the way he attacked Black Winter.

 

[Roirr]

Thor gathered all his energy and unleashed it, and the black winter crumbled to the ground.
That much energy only happened when he turned blue, and you haven't answered almost any of my arguments.
You still haven't shown anything that will scale from the energy that destroyed that black winter to the energy that knull released to knull and knull tanked it, just like he did to black winter again with environmental destruction.
What thor already did to black winter is environmental destruction, neither dura/neither striking strenght.
In order for Knull to scale, try to show something that will completely tank the explosion on that black winter and scale like that.
I didn't say there is no evidence, I said it's not enough, and here you are resorting to straw man fallacy.
You show the blue energies that come out when you fight with knull.
Do you think these look like the lights when fighting black winter?
You have already responded to 1 of the 3 arguments I presented, and that one is straw man fallacy, let's not talk anymore and let the admins talk.
Anyway, if you still answer my arguments after this, there will be backtracking.
Regards...

In order to scale up to this power, he does not need to use all this power, and there is no such rule. You are talking for the sake of talking. I answered what you said, you are the one who does not answer here and makes fallacy.

This wiki cannot drop knull from high 1a even if it wants to right now storm is scaling to high 1a right now and knull has already defeated storm, little one, of course you don't know any of this because your marvel knowledge is 0

 

[Antvasima]

No rude or disparaging comments please.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

In order to scale up to this power, he does not need to use all this power, and there is no such rule. You are talking for the sake of talking. I answered what you said, you are the one who does not answer here and makes fallacy.

This wiki cannot drop knull from high 1a even if it wants to right now storm is scaling to high 1a right now and knull has already defeated storm, little one, of course you don't know any of this because your marvel knowledge is 0

I won't say anything about Marvel knowledge.
The black winter was destroyed when thor unleashed all his power and we know how big of an explosion that was.
Can you prove that Knull can tank an explosion of that magnitude?
Also you called me ignorant and resorting to fallacy, still no answer to environmental destruction.
As for Marvel knowledge, even if I didn't know an ounce of Marvel, anyone can see that it's an invalid scale.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

No rude or disparaging comments please.

I don't do it anyway, but when I was having a proper discussion with my friend
He says things like "little one ", "Your Marvel knowledge is 0".

 

[Protector_Hunk]

To be honest, I think I took this debate without difficulty, he used a lot of ignorance and fallacies, and when I pointed out these fallacies, unfortunately he gave me ignorant evasive answers like "you are the one who is making fallacies".
Not enough context for multi eternity
HON still hasn't provided any evidence for this immeasurable power for Thor, like "never-ending" "infinite amount of matter", and if he had, it would have been environmental destruction, and if he had done the same big bang as he did to black winter, or an explosion similar to that bang that would scale with it, and knull tanked it or did something to scale with it, he would have gotten High 1A.
Yes, HON Thor is High 1A but he was not shown to use the same energy after he destroyed black winter,
Anyway, releasing all of the energy it receives from Galactus to black winter gives it environmental destruction, not dura/striking strenght.
Therefore, knull can't scale from this, if he was to scale, thor would have to create an explosion that would scale at the same intensity or close to it and knull would have to scale from this.
He also broke crt rules, I gave a fallacy but his only argument against it was that you are the one who made a fallacy.
This put him in the fallacy of Argumentum ad nauseum or argument from repetition, if you read the messages carefully you will see this.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

I agree with OP. We should dismiss it because the reasons for High 1-A are based too much on conjecture and precise statements are required at such a tier.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

I agree with OP. We should dismiss it because the reasons for High 1-A are based too much on conjecture and precise statements are required at such a tier.

it's true

 

[Karllkraft]

I'm neutral on this matter, but I don't think the word 'immeasurable' will have much impact compared to the others."

 

[Antvasima]

So what do our knowledgeable and experienced members think that we should do here?

 

[Protector_Hunk]

So what do our knowledgeable and experienced members think that we should do here?

Of course it's not for me to say, but if you look at the headline, most people agree that it should be downgraded from High 1A.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

So what do our knowledgeable and experienced members think that we should do here?

Well antvasima, you must have studied the debate
Do you think it should or should not be downgraded?
Accordingly, I can write agree or disagree if you tell me with your request.

 

[ObberGobb]

The actual Black Winter story makes it look like Thor used up all the power, since it says Thor unleashes all of it and immediately afterward reverts to his normal form and never enters his Herald form again. So, I have some questions before I decide which side I'm on here:

1. Is the idea that Herald Thor absorbed the full power of Lifebringer Galactus, and so after he kills the Black Winter retains all of that power and continues to scale to High 1-A?
2. Where does the evidence that it is Herald Thor as opposed to Odinforce Thor in the Knull fight come from? I don't see anything in Knull's justifications.
3. The other piece of evidence shown that Thor kept that power is a fight against Hulk (which admittedly I have not read), but I don't see any indication in those scans that he has his Herald powers.

Regardless of the conclusion this thread reaches, I think both profiles need better explanations for the High 1-A tiering. Knull's profile needs to prove it is High 1-A Herald Thor that he is fighting, and Thor's profile needs to indicate the High 1-A tiering is something he keeps and isn't just a one time attack.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

I'm of the opinion that Marvel's High 1-A scaling is kind of rough right now. I don't think it makes sense for characters like Storm or Thor to scale above Multiversal Abstracts at all, all of the things used to scale them to that level seem like enormous outliers to me, Yggdrasil should not scale above the Living Tribunal that is only ever implied one time in a non-Thor comic it makes no sense at all for it to even be above Uni Eternity because Thor absolutely does not scale to Abstracts that is never implied anywhere in any story. But, I digress, that's not the topic of discussion now, so I'll drop it.

For this specific situation, I don't really know. The actual Black Winter story makes it look like Thor used up all the power, since it says Thor unleashes all of it and immediately afterward reverts to his normal form and never enters his Herald form again. So, I have some questions before I decide which side I'm on here:

1. Is the idea that Herald Thor absorbed the full power of Lifebringer Galactus, and so after he kills the Black Winter retains all of that power and continues to scale to High 1-A?
2. Where does the evidence that it is Herald Thor as opposed to Odinforce Thor in the Knull fight come from? I don't see anything in Knull's justifications.
3. The other piece of evidence shown that Thor kept that power is a fight against Hulk (which admittedly I have not read), but I don't see any indication in those scans that he has his Herald powers.

Regardless of the conclusion this thread reaches, I think both profiles need better explanations for the High 1-A tiering. Knull's profile needs to prove it is High 1-A Herald Thor that he is fighting, and Thor's profile needs to indicate the High 1-A tiering is something he keeps and isn't just a one time attack.

Now, thor's powers are already gone after herald of none, you already said that.
And if he hadn't gone, it would have been the same scale of environmental destruction and knull would have to tank an H1A explosion for knull to scale.
Now, you said you'd pick a side.
Do you agree with Knull being downgraded or staying High 1A, if you are neutral you can specify that too, but please specify one of them because crt's head
I will write your name as agree, disagree or neutral and this is important.

 

[ObberGobb]

The environmental destruction thing doesn't really matter all that much. A character can scale to High 1-A without causing High 1-A levels of damage with their attacks. Thor is High 3-A, but he doesn't blow up the universe whenever he attacks someone.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

The environmental destruction thing doesn't really matter all that much. A character can scale to High 1-A without causing High 1-A levels of damage with their attacks. Thor is High 3-A, but he doesn't blow up the universe whenever he attacks someone.

Yes, knull does not get a scale from Thor because he is already High 1A with environmental destruction, the tier that should be given to knull here is High 1B, and this is because he kills celestials.
And what do you call this crt?
Agree or disagree or neutral?