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Neji/Hinata vs Toph/Aang
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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- #82
I'll count it now but im going to remind him, I didnt count it before because I literally said he'd needed better reasoning. Since he said FRA he's good now.
Also, i'd appreciate it if everyone would please stop discussing my personal info over a stupid matchup (not blaming the people who didnt first bring it up but it makes me very uncomfortable). I will remove this thread immediately if its talked about more.
Sorry, but after the whole discord stuff we should be beyond this now.
Also, i'd appreciate it if everyone would please stop discussing my personal info over a stupid matchup (not blaming the people who didnt first bring it up but it makes me very uncomfortable). I will remove this thread immediately if its talked about more.
Sorry, but after the whole discord stuff we should be beyond this now.
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- #83
You'll need to explain your reasoning a lot better too, im not counting this. AS is banned yes and Hinata's only fodder to Neji, not the Avatar team.Konaguna said:
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jesus christ what are going you vote both?
Team Naruto votes: 4
Team Avatar votes: 4
maybe im not sure vote be what want do you.
Team Naruto votes: 4
Team Avatar votes: 4
maybe im not sure vote be what want do you.
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- #86
4 people voted for Team Naruto and 4 for Team Avatar........
What exactly is the issue here??
What exactly is the issue here??
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Neji does have super strength compatible with Lee's. Looking at his fight with Naruto— the way he fights, by deflecting blows with his hands— it requires physical strength to shunt blows aside. Unless you want to try slapping a car aside with raw "skill", I'd say that skill is important when fighting at a disadvantage, but you still need to be able to compete physically.
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No.
They can feel them moving, and the metal that they are throwing.
And they wouldn't have time for it. The moment they are in fighting range theyll be owherwhelmed.
People just don't understand how high a X60 speed difference is
They can feel them moving, and the metal that they are throwing.
And they wouldn't have time for it. The moment they are in fighting range theyll be owherwhelmed.
People just don't understand how high a X60 speed difference is
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Mach 11 to mach 592.5
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This is how I see the battle going.
The two teams as mention by OP are going to meet in the middle. Aang typically leads in with airbending, while Toph is tossing rocks.
Neji and Hinata will eventually either get hit by air, but the damage is enough for KO or critical. They are going to dodge the rocks or resort to using rotation. Neji and Hinata are going to try and quickly close the distance. If Aang ore Toph gets hit one by gentle fist they are going to lose access to whatever limb if they are not drastically finished. However, let's say the escape the clutch. Aang and Toph are now resorting to heavy earthbending, mention earlier from others in this post. They are going to create pit falls, heavy compression, ect.
Aang and Toph are going to realize that Neji and Hinata must stay stationary during their rotation unless they resort 64 strikes to break the rocks.
The reason I say metalbending is a possible win for Team Avatar is because of Toph. Young Aang has never used metalbending until Korra's arc. Toph is going to sense Hinata and Neji are carrying metal, especially their headbands. If Toph can resort she may be able to have Neji's and Hinata's headbands impale their skulls.
The two teams as mention by OP are going to meet in the middle. Aang typically leads in with airbending, while Toph is tossing rocks.
Neji and Hinata will eventually either get hit by air, but the damage is enough for KO or critical. They are going to dodge the rocks or resort to using rotation. Neji and Hinata are going to try and quickly close the distance. If Aang ore Toph gets hit one by gentle fist they are going to lose access to whatever limb if they are not drastically finished. However, let's say the escape the clutch. Aang and Toph are now resorting to heavy earthbending, mention earlier from others in this post. They are going to create pit falls, heavy compression, ect.
Aang and Toph are going to realize that Neji and Hinata must stay stationary during their rotation unless they resort 64 strikes to break the rocks.
The reason I say metalbending is a possible win for Team Avatar is because of Toph. Young Aang has never used metalbending until Korra's arc. Toph is going to sense Hinata and Neji are carrying metal, especially their headbands. If Toph can resort she may be able to have Neji's and Hinata's headbands impale their skulls.
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Hinata and Neji won't be able to really protect themselfs from any hit with anything but the rotation, wich they can't keep up in a prolonged manner.
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- Thread starter
- #96
As OP, i'll leave some more thoughts on stuff:
-Since when is Toph able to sense metal? Its been a while since ive seen Avatar so theres stuff i'll need a refresher on like this
-What needs to be remembered is Toph's metal bending works by bending the earthly improperties within the metal to force it to bend. Metal benders can't actually bend pure metal. Now whether Ninja tools in Naruto are pure/impure metals is a different topic but lets not instantly assume its bendable.
-Since the teams will be meeting in the middle of the FoD, they'll be crossing trees and such. Don't forget about the Byakugan's vision being able to extend extremely far as well. If you havent then my bad, it just seemed like people only considered Seismic Sense here.
-Also make sure not to forget what Astral mentioned. Neji and Hinata still have stuff like Shunshin, substitution jutsu, paper bombs, etc. which is standard shinobi stuff so they don't neccesarily need to fight in close-range all the time.
-For the Avatar Team, I know they're MHS in combat speed but what about their attack speed? As in the speed of their bending? Combat speed and Attack speed are treated differently here IIRC so if im right, that makes things more fair.
Thoughts over.
-Since when is Toph able to sense metal? Its been a while since ive seen Avatar so theres stuff i'll need a refresher on like this
-What needs to be remembered is Toph's metal bending works by bending the earthly improperties within the metal to force it to bend. Metal benders can't actually bend pure metal. Now whether Ninja tools in Naruto are pure/impure metals is a different topic but lets not instantly assume its bendable.
-Since the teams will be meeting in the middle of the FoD, they'll be crossing trees and such. Don't forget about the Byakugan's vision being able to extend extremely far as well. If you havent then my bad, it just seemed like people only considered Seismic Sense here.
-Also make sure not to forget what Astral mentioned. Neji and Hinata still have stuff like Shunshin, substitution jutsu, paper bombs, etc. which is standard shinobi stuff so they don't neccesarily need to fight in close-range all the time.
-For the Avatar Team, I know they're MHS in combat speed but what about their attack speed? As in the speed of their bending? Combat speed and Attack speed are treated differently here IIRC so if im right, that makes things more fair.
Thoughts over.
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Toph can sense Earth flying at her. I don't get why she shouldn't be able to sense metal as she does with Earth.
I don't think Naruto is that advanced to have 100% purified metal to use as tools. They don't even need purity. And until stated otherwise, Occam's razor dictates that it should be normal metal, which in most cases is impure.
And combat speed should include attack speed by definition. Attacking is a part of combat. And if their attack speed were that much slower than their combat speed, they would have dodged almost every attack thrown at them by other benders.
I don't think Naruto is that advanced to have 100% purified metal to use as tools. They don't even need purity. And until stated otherwise, Occam's razor dictates that it should be normal metal, which in most cases is impure.
And combat speed should include attack speed by definition. Attacking is a part of combat. And if their attack speed were that much slower than their combat speed, they would have dodged almost every attack thrown at them by other benders.
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- Thread starter
- #98
Fair enough but the problem I still see with that is what evidence proves Toph is able to sense such tiny amounts of earth from a distance far from where she is (matter of fact someone remind me how big the Forest of Death is?)
I don't deny her earth sensing and now won't for her metal sensing, it just comes down to how much of it she can sense and how far away from her.
I don't deny her earth sensing and now won't for her metal sensing, it just comes down to how much of it she can sense and how far away from her.
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Another thing is that....IIRC....Toph needs to touch metal to bend it. I know there are characters in TLoK who don't need to touch metal, but when it comes to Toph we've only ever seen her bending metal by touching it (At least on tv....Idk about the comics).
In other words, she would need to get very close to metal bend their headbands.
In other words, she would need to get very close to metal bend their headbands.
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She doesn't need to touch earth to bend it,same goes for metal
In the comics toph had a feat of blocking metal thrown at her when she fought with a weapons user...also seismic sensing can read trajectory of the body when performing throwing actions that's how she fights fire benders
I don't know how many times I'll have to explain the Neji and Lee situation.i even used OPM series analogy of two very comparable characters Genos and bang
In the comics toph had a feat of blocking metal thrown at her when she fought with a weapons user...also seismic sensing can read trajectory of the body when performing throwing actions that's how she fights fire benders
I don't know how many times I'll have to explain the Neji and Lee situation.i even used OPM series analogy of two very comparable characters Genos and bang
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Toph doesn't necessarily need to touch metal in order to bending. It acts like her earthbending. If she is in the vicinity of it she will be able to bend it.
Bend it all
In the link above to go 0:47. You see Toph bend the metal from below the fire guards feet. Fast forward to 1:41 you notice Toph bend the metal pipe from above to smack the guard. There are other moments too, but it will take time to find the exact episodes.
Bend it all
In the link above to go 0:47. You see Toph bend the metal from below the fire guards feet. Fast forward to 1:41 you notice Toph bend the metal pipe from above to smack the guard. There are other moments too, but it will take time to find the exact episodes.
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- #103
TloK doesnt apply here, just a heads up. This is Toph when she was a kid (unless her High 8-C comes from TLoK???)
I think Yungs point was more Toph needs to be extremely close to metal in order to bend it, that she doesn't bend metal from a far distance, not even as far a distance she bends earth. Thats how it looks to me anyway.
I think Yungs point was more Toph needs to be extremely close to metal in order to bend it, that she doesn't bend metal from a far distance, not even as far a distance she bends earth. Thats how it looks to me anyway.
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@MCS
She was touching the metal in every single clip. The only clip where she wasn't was the moon rock one....Which still doesn't prove her range (It's also questionable whether or not that's actually metal and not rock imo).
Also, Kukui is correct. Even if she doesn't have to touch it, her range with it is still trash compared to her earth bending.
She was touching the metal in every single clip. The only clip where she wasn't was the moon rock one....Which still doesn't prove her range (It's also questionable whether or not that's actually metal and not rock imo).
Also, Kukui is correct. Even if she doesn't have to touch it, her range with it is still trash compared to her earth bending.
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if she only had a 60 times speed advantage to be able to blitz them to the point where it doesn't matter.
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Since when does combat speed allow someone to blitz that badly? Thats only when its mid fight.
Movement speed is where usually the blitzing comes from and if its not in mid-combat, Toph and Aang aren't blitzing the Hyugas.
Movement speed is where usually the blitzing comes from and if its not in mid-combat, Toph and Aang aren't blitzing the Hyugas.
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no, not at all.
Combat speed is litiraly for how fast you can move during a fight.
When Neji and Hinata have a X3 AP advantage at most, it comes down to the fact that their enemy can hit them 60 times before they could properly land a hit.
And movement speed isn't something we rate.
The things we rate are Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed.
How fast you can move mid fight is determinated by combat speed, with reaction speed allowing for small movements.
Aang and Toph are sixty times faster combat speed wise.
I mean, what did you think the feat comes from? Not moving during combat?
Combat speed is litiraly for how fast you can move during a fight.
When Neji and Hinata have a X3 AP advantage at most, it comes down to the fact that their enemy can hit them 60 times before they could properly land a hit.
And movement speed isn't something we rate.
The things we rate are Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed.
How fast you can move mid fight is determinated by combat speed, with reaction speed allowing for small movements.
Aang and Toph are sixty times faster combat speed wise.
I mean, what did you think the feat comes from? Not moving during combat?
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What matters here are combat speed and reaction speed is what I'm saying, because combat speed does determinate how fast you move while fighting.
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Combat speed is how fast a character can fight, not how fast a character can run during combat. To say that character A has normal human travel/movement speed (because movement speed is what travel speed is intended to describe), but infinite combat speed means his punches, kicks, and dodging movements are infinite, but he can't run at that speed. To say that character's running/travel speed changes solely dependent on them being in a fight (without that being a specific verse mechanic or power) is ridiculous.
This misconception is extremely pervasive— especially after Screwattack's Goku vs Superman. People on Goku's side tried to claim that Goku's faster than what they calced. He is. But their reasoning was because Goku can move (as in Do the teleporting speed thing he does) faster during combat. "Short Burst speed". No. That's not true. It makes no sense. To say Goku couldn't have used that speed to do anything else besides fighting— to say that Goku can only run or fly or vanish from sight as fast as he does when he is fighting is ridiculous.
No. These people are wrong. They tried to argue that Goku and DBZ characters had been pacing himself to not burn himself out when he flew (which doesn't make any sense for several reasons), and that doesn't change what his actual movement/travel speed is, nor is their argument that Goku can't sustain that speed of long periods justified. Snake way, Goku wasn't going to Pace himself. He wanted to fly back as fast as possible to save his friends— and even then, Karin gave him senzu BECAUSE he was tired from moving full speed to get there. The whole thing is PIS, because we see characters outpace their energy beams, like Goku did against Piccolo, or against Cell's Kamehameha— in addition to them being able to hit each other by flying at each other and running at each other full speed.
Point is;
Movement Speed/Travel Speed: How fast a character can move their entire body from point A to point B, whether it's a small hop or a sprint.
Combat speed: A combination of attack speed and reaction speed sustained over a fight. AKA how fast a character can move their limbs, or body parts, typically during a fight.
Example:
Usain Bolt and Bruce Lee are in a fighting ring that is the same size as the DBZ fighting tournament arenas.
Bruce Lee has superior combat speed. Usain Bolt has superior movement/travel speed. Bruce can Blitz Bolt.
Why?
Because Bruce has faster combat speed.
How?
Bruce will never catch up to Bolt running around. Just because Bruce can punch fast, pick up his legs to dodge a sweep faster than Bolt, Duck under a punch and stand back up faster than Bolt, it doesn't mean he can run as fast as Bolt. This doesn't magically change when Bruce and Bolt are about to fight. He blitzes, however, when the fists fly, Bruce's fists fly far faster than even Bolt can see, hitting him too fast for him to react, Blitzing.
This misconception is extremely pervasive— especially after Screwattack's Goku vs Superman. People on Goku's side tried to claim that Goku's faster than what they calced. He is. But their reasoning was because Goku can move (as in Do the teleporting speed thing he does) faster during combat. "Short Burst speed". No. That's not true. It makes no sense. To say Goku couldn't have used that speed to do anything else besides fighting— to say that Goku can only run or fly or vanish from sight as fast as he does when he is fighting is ridiculous.
No. These people are wrong. They tried to argue that Goku and DBZ characters had been pacing himself to not burn himself out when he flew (which doesn't make any sense for several reasons), and that doesn't change what his actual movement/travel speed is, nor is their argument that Goku can't sustain that speed of long periods justified. Snake way, Goku wasn't going to Pace himself. He wanted to fly back as fast as possible to save his friends— and even then, Karin gave him senzu BECAUSE he was tired from moving full speed to get there. The whole thing is PIS, because we see characters outpace their energy beams, like Goku did against Piccolo, or against Cell's Kamehameha— in addition to them being able to hit each other by flying at each other and running at each other full speed.
Point is;
Movement Speed/Travel Speed: How fast a character can move their entire body from point A to point B, whether it's a small hop or a sprint.
Combat speed: A combination of attack speed and reaction speed sustained over a fight. AKA how fast a character can move their limbs, or body parts, typically during a fight.
Example:
Usain Bolt and Bruce Lee are in a fighting ring that is the same size as the DBZ fighting tournament arenas.
Bruce Lee has superior combat speed. Usain Bolt has superior movement/travel speed. Bruce can Blitz Bolt.
Why?
Because Bruce has faster combat speed.
How?
Bruce will never catch up to Bolt running around. Just because Bruce can punch fast, pick up his legs to dodge a sweep faster than Bolt, Duck under a punch and stand back up faster than Bolt, it doesn't mean he can run as fast as Bolt. This doesn't magically change when Bruce and Bolt are about to fight. He blitzes, however, when the fists fly, Bruce's fists fly far faster than even Bolt can see, hitting him too fast for him to react, Blitzing.
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Another thing, don't try so hard to split up the speeds like that. Reaction speed is for being able to perceive all movements, big or small. Not just for small details. Reaction and attack speed together create the Combat speed. Reaction and attack are only seen seperate when their specific attack is far faster than what they're normally able to do, or faster than they can react.
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- #114
Lets try and leave the other verses out of this, however for the most part Amexim is what I was describing.
Combat speed is only the speed of your attacks and movement during combat, not moving from point A to point B. Plus, the Avatar characters pages wouldnt specifiy their MHS rating as specific speeds if it covered all of them in total.
Combat speed is only the speed of your attacks and movement during combat, not moving from point A to point B. Plus, the Avatar characters pages wouldnt specifiy their MHS rating as specific speeds if it covered all of them in total.
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Exept they also move around while fighting, and move faster than the enemies attacks several times.
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Yes.Zzsax said:
And my point is that they dodge, jump around and attack at a speed that is over 60 times faster
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well guess nothing pick voted to TEAM Avatar what ever.
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Ricsi, then make a CRT that says their movement/travel speed scales to their combat speed. The point here isn't to say your claim is false, the point here is to say that your definitions are wrong.
And, well, they're MHS because of reacting to top tier's Lightning. So, I wouldn't even bother with that CRT, since I haven't seen Aang out run, or physically dodge attacks like that. Trying to scale them to fodder enemies doesn't work, because that implies than any random fodder they fight can react to lightning like they do— which would make sense if it were explicitly untrue based on how doing the lightning reaction and redirection is a feat in and of itself compared to everyone in the verse.
Honestly, if it wasn't downplay via anti-feats, the cast shouldn't be MHS because they don't blitz the fodder of their verse, who shouldn't be able to react to lightning.
Point is, Combat speed isn't how fast you're running around the arena during a fight. That's movement/travel speed.
Them scaling in movement to their attacks doesn't make sense because of the nature of their attacks.
And, well, they're MHS because of reacting to top tier's Lightning. So, I wouldn't even bother with that CRT, since I haven't seen Aang out run, or physically dodge attacks like that. Trying to scale them to fodder enemies doesn't work, because that implies than any random fodder they fight can react to lightning like they do— which would make sense if it were explicitly untrue based on how doing the lightning reaction and redirection is a feat in and of itself compared to everyone in the verse.
Honestly, if it wasn't downplay via anti-feats, the cast shouldn't be MHS because they don't blitz the fodder of their verse, who shouldn't be able to react to lightning.
Point is, Combat speed isn't how fast you're running around the arena during a fight. That's movement/travel speed.
Them scaling in movement to their attacks doesn't make sense because of the nature of their attacks.
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