Nasuverse: Noble Phantasm Revisions

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Now that we have gotten Base Servant Stats out of the way, we can discuss Noble Phantasms and how they scale, cause many of them are whack, we need to decide what calcs to use and what NP's scale to each other, do we do it by Rank or by Type? Do we treat a A Rank Anti-Unit NP the same level as an A Rank Anti-Army NP or do we only treat Anti-Army NP's the same level as each other, also the Lion King's High 6-C Feat is up for question and will not be used until further clarification in the Movie that's slated to come out

We know that at bare minimum, Noble Phantasm's like Overloaded Caliburn are 7x Stronger than Berserker's Durability as it was able to kill him 7 times at once, however there are probably many other calcs that are important for scaling and rating these NP's

I also know that someone mentioned nuking the 5-B for Gil's Full Power Enuma Elish, however I don't know the specifics or the reason why

So let's discuss

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Could I post the the stuff i found that have a possibility of being calc'ed? I have no idea what their results would end up yielding though. I tried to calc them myself but i suck with numbers

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Dargoo_Faust @Schnee_One @LSirLancelotDuLacl

Input would be greatly appreciated

 

[Schnee_One]

NPs are going to be revised to be 7x physical strength until the movie comes out and we can recalc the feat

We know that Servants can survive their own NPs when they have been both heavily dispersed and the Servants are still very weak afterwards. So while they're not thousands of times weaker, they usually get insta wrecked otherwise.

Still, 7x is fair for now

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Noble Phantasm's like Overloaded Caliburn are 7x Stronger than Berserker's Durability as it was able to kill him 7 times at once, however there are probably many other calcs that are important for scaling and rating these NP's

I'm aware that it killed Berserker 7 times, but why are we deducing from this that it hit Berserker with 7 times his durability to accomplish this? I always felt like that mechanic of God Hand was rather inconsistent with Gilgamesh's fight with Herc, considering Gil fields a good number of prototype Phantasms that are >/= Overloaded Caliburn and none of them took multiple lives at once or just killed him outright.

It's also in a pretty significant gray area in our multiplier standards - unless there was a statement that Caliburn was 7x Herc's durability.

If this is what we're using to say NPs are 7x Servant AP I'd honestly be against it - NPs could be some value lower but still significantly above servants or OOMs higher, I'd prioritize comparisons from feats between NPs and Servants rather than trying to backscale.

 

[Zoey_of_Scadrial]

I question the 5-B for Enuma becuase it doesn't have feats to show what it meant. And I alwqys interpreted it more as surface wiping, as "return the world to it's genesis" just seems like returning it to a barren and inhabitable landscape.

And I don't know how we should deal with scaling, as both paths make sense.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

well if 5-B of Ea gets nuked. it has a crater that could be calc'ed.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm aware that it killed Berserker 7 times, but why are we deducing from this that it hit Berserker with 7 times his durability to accomplish this? I always felt like that mechanic of God Hand was rather inconsistent with Gilgamesh's fight with Herc, considering Gil fields a good number of prototype Phantasms that are >/= Overloaded Caliburn and none of them took multiple lives at once or just killed him outright.

It's also in a pretty significant gray area in our multiplier standards - unless there was a statement that Caliburn was 7x Herc's durability.

If this is what we're using to say NPs are 7x Servant AP I'd honestly be against it - NPs could be some value lower but still significantly above servants or OOMs higher, I'd prioritize comparisons from feats between NPs and Servants rather than trying to backscale.

I mean do we know that those NP's that Gil used were stronger or comparable to an Overloaded Caliburn? I think he spammed many at once and killed several of Berserker's lives at once as well, also I though the idea was that Overloaded Caliburn produced enough mana to kill Berserker 7 times at once, therefore requiring 7x the mana it would take to just use normal strikes with Caliburn, which makes sense to me personally

Some things I want get clarification on are

1. Excalibur Morgan apparently matching Bennu, which is supposedly High 7-A

2. Ishtar's 6-C feat linked to the Nasuverse page

3. Caladbolg's Tier 6 Feat

4. Gugalanna's 6-B Feat

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean do we know that those NP's that Gil used were stronger or comparable to an Overloaded Caliburn? I think he spammed many at once and killed several of Berserker's lives at once as well

We currently rate his higher-ranked NPs, i.e. the ones he spammed at Herc, as comparable or superior to overloaded Caliburn, yes. And multiples of them were getting tossed into Herc at a time. If Herc getting overflow damage was consistent in the series, Gil would have literally just killed him in the first couple seconds of the fight.

I though the idea was that Overloaded Caliburn produced enough mana to kill Berserker 7 times at once, therefore requiring 7x the mana it would take to just use normal strikes with Caliburn, which makes sense to me personally

Is this something that was actually stated? I'm asking because that's extremely necessary for a multiplier to be accepted.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Wait, if the NP's Gil spammed against Herc didn't kill Herc 7 times over at once, then they're not comparable to Overloaded Caliburn

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wait, if the NP's Gil spammed against Herc didn't kill Herc 7 times over at once, then they're not comparable to Overloaded Caliburn

With how we define Herc's overflow mechanic with God Hand the NPs Gil spammed would have had to have been so much weaker than Caliburn that we'd need to nerf Gil's AP fairly significantly, putting his A-ranked Phantasm barrages at like, slightly above base servant stats. He was firing barrages of A-ranked NPs, with multiples hitting Herc at a time and not taking multiple lives.

I find it's much more likely that what Caliburn (and weakened Excalibur) did is the exception and not the rule, or at least that God Hand inconsistently does its overflow thing enough to the point where we shouldn't use it to seriously rate base servant stats.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Dargoo_Faust

I believe that the amount of Mana matters for attacks, God Hand is based on Ilya's Mana reserves, essentially meaning if you output more Mana than what she is using to sustain Berserker, than you can kill Berserker several times over, Ilya says that if Rin had 5 times the amount of jewels she used to kill Berserker once, she may have been able to take out the rest of Berserker's lives, one of those jewels is packed with Mana and could kill Herc once, so theoretically killing Berserker over several times means outputting several times the amount of damage and Mana

So I believe a multiplier is valid, but I'm not sure if the amount of lives is linear with the Noble Phantasm's output, since apparently 5x Rin's Jewels could take out Berserker's 6 lives

Also maybe those A Rank NP's Gil used were equal to a normal Caliburn, but not Caliburn's Overloaded Power, remember that Shirou said that Gil has never mastered or pushed any of his Noble Phantasms to the limit, whereas Artoria using Caliburn would be able to, this is the main reasoning why I don't know how we should handle NP Scaling, by Ranks or by Types

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

so theoretically killing Berserker over several times means outputting several times the amount of damage and Mana

I find it very hard to believe that Gil couldn't output more mana than Rin with her gems per NP (or was actually outputting significantly less mana than Rin since a ton of them hit Herc at once) when he was killing Herc. Either the God Hand mechanic is inconsistent or Gil is super weak when he's using high-quality Phantasms from his GoB, I find the former to be far more likely considering this is Nasu.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Lord El-Melloi Case Files Episode 5 around the 14 minute marker the fight begins. It is storming and raining HARD. Gray's Rhongo blast clears all the clouds in the sky making it a perfectly sunny evening that is very vibrant and beautiful. Not a cloud one in the sky! she likely had 3 or less seals active at this time.


If you want to yeet 5-B Ea. Here is something you could calc for Gilgamesh with Ea









Spartacus's NP caused a crater













In the Fate/Grand Order First Order movie, Caster Cu's Wicker Man also caused a hole in some very low hanging very thick looking clouds.

 

[John985]

Gil cant use the special ability of any weapon inside GoB outside of EA. He can only bypass God Hand by the weapon rank, not the special ability of the weapons. So its attack power is not stronger than Caliburn.

He cant do any true name release of the weapon he have.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Gil cant use the special ability of any weapon inside GoB outside of EA. He can only bypass God Hand by the weapon rank, not the special ability of the weapons. So its attack power is not stronger than Caliburn.

He cant do any true name release of the weapon he have.

This^

That's why I thought Gil couldn't kill and one-shot all of Berserker's lives all at once, he's basically danmaku spamming him with physical NP's, which would make them comparable to the normal Caliburn strikes, which could cut off Berserker's Arm, but not comparable to the Overloaded Output of Caliburn, also Rin's Jewel was packed full of Mana she was storing for several years, so that should be superior to just raw physical NP attacks from Gil

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So its attack power is not stronger than Caliburn.

He cant do any true name release of the weapon he have.

Gil uses one of his GoB Phantasms [Merodach] to outright match an activated Caliburn. He can’t do that with any other Prototype in his treasury?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Gil uses one of his GoB Phantasms [Merodach] to outright match an activated Caliburn. He can’t do that with any other Prototype in his treasury?

Well at that time, he was just using Merodach, Gil using just one NP's name would be stronger than just spamming a bunch of NP without using their names, this is 100% consistent with Fate Lore as the True Name of one NP is superior to the might of an infinite number of normal NP, in fact that's the entire point of Shirou vs Gil, that Shirou can match the numerous NP's Gil uses because Gil isn't using the True Names of the swords like every other Servant does, if Shirou used his infinite swords all together against the True Name of one NP, he would lose, that's shown in Shirou vs Angelica, where she flat out wrecks his infinite swords with Enuma Elish

So Overloaded Caliburn>>>Gil's NP Spam

 

[John985]

Um those are physical attack only. And its Shirou who was using Caliburn when Gil pull out Merodach.

Yeah the weapon he have are prototypes so they don't have any names.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah the weapon he have are prototypes so they don't have any names.

Then what was he doing with Merodach that allowed it to match an activated Caliburn? If he doesn't need to true name release to match an activated NP, and he was already chucking dozens of prototype NPs at Herc (Merodach likely included), why is he only hitting Herc with attacks that are <<< what Rin can produce with more gems?

And its Shirou who was using Caliburn when Gil pull out Merodach.

It's rated the same as Caliburn on the profiles, explicitly.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Dargoo_Faust

I've actually had an issue with Merodach on Gil's Profile, it says that he overpowers and destroys Overloaded Caliburn, however Shirou flat out says he cannot bring out Caliburns True Power on his own, he needed help from Saber to activate it's True Power against Berserker, against Gil using only his power it would be much weaker, not to mention that I don't think he managed to activate it in time before Gil destroyed the sword, Merodach seemingly only overpowered Caliburn's standard physical attacks and not the same level of attack that killed Berserker several times over, so that means Merodach on Gil's profile would be downgraded to be at the level of a NP without using the True Name, so it'd essentially be equal to his Gate of Babylon AP, as for Shirou's profile, I think he should lose the justification of the attack that killed Berserker several times over, he would still be able to use the Overloaded Caliburn, it would just be based on his own power and be severely nerfed compared to the version that killed Berserker, only when Saber used Caliburn with Shirou were they able to draw out Caliburn's true power

So, scaling goes like this essentially

Shirou's Standard Caliburn<Merodach and Gate of Babylon Standard NP's<<<Shirou and Saber's Overloaded Caliburn

Shirou and Saber's Overloaded Caliburn is what is Excalibur and other Noble Phantasm's of that level would scale to

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Caliburn is only Rank B unless someone who is a chosen king wields it then it jumps to Rank A+ or was it A++? I don't remember. it had some weird catch like that.

 

[John985]

Shirou cant do true name release. Gil only slash Merodach to destroy Caliburn.

But yeah, the merodach tiering on gil profile need to be change most likely.

Caliburn is rank B, but when activated it became A+.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

however Shirou flat out says he cannot bring out Caliburns True Power on his own, he needed help from Saber to activate it's True Power against Berserker

I mean, the point is that Gil cannot activate his treasury Phantasms, however, even if Shirou Caliburn is < Shirou/Artoria Caliburn it's still, well, an activated Phantasm which should logically trounce an unactivated Medorach. But Medorach straight-up blocks and destroys Caliburn.

Shirou cant do true name release. Gil only slash Merodach to destroy Caliburn.

Mitch was saying that Shirou was overloading his Caliburn in a similar way to what he was doing with Artoria but at less power, so I'm not sure what you guys are saying went on with that feat.

Until the profiles are changed though using multiplier scaling through Herc shouldn't be done period.

I still have issues with using Herc for multipliers if there are no statements that Caliburn was explicitly hitting with 7x Herc's durability, however, as without that it fails our minimum standards for multiplier scaling.

 

[John985]

I just reread that part, no mention of Shirou trying to activate it. He only survive because the sword is telling him to.

It is fortunate that I also reproduced its memory when I reproduced the sword. A sword with a long past holds will and experience. This sword must already be familiar with such attacks. I can't juge Gilgamesh's attacks, but this sword is able to.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I mean, the point is that Gil cannot activate his treasury Phantasms, however, even if Shirou Caliburn is < Shirou/Artoria Caliburn it's still, well, an activated Phantasm

I still have issues with using Herc for multipliers if there are no statements that Caliburn was explicitly hitting with 7x Herc's durability, however, as without that it fails our minimum standards for multiplier scaling.

I found this statement from the Light Novel on LP archive [1]

"That illusion cannot be underestimated. I did not expect it to destroy my body seven-fold with a single blow."
He puts no emotion into his dying words.
The mad warrior follows his role until the very end, and his existence disperses as if fading into the air.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Dargoo_Faust

I specifically went back and read the fight against Berserker, and I understand the misconceptions of the number lives now, Overloaded Caliburn managed to kill Berserker 5 times at once because he had 5 lives left at that time, however Berseker said that the attack had enough power to kill him 7 times over, he just didn't have that many lives at that point in time

So Rins Jewel Attack could kill Berserker, therefore it's on his level of durability, Ilya says that with 5x's the amount of Jewels used to take one of Berserker's lives, he would be killed six times, that means that an attack 5x stronger than one that can kill him would be able to kill him six times at once, therefore we should scale Overloaded Caliburn and NP's that are comparable to 5x Base Servant Stats, that's the best we can do for Multipliers, the number of lives isn't what dictates the Multiplier number itself, but the statement from Ilya

However calcs may make the multiplier irrelevant, as Excalibur Morgan was able to match Bennu, which is High 7-A apparently, however I would like more clarification on that kind of stuff, I know very little about all these Grand Order Feats, I would like more clarification from everyone about the 6-C Ishtar feat and if scales to anyone, also more clarification on Excalibur Morgan matching Bennu

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I found this statement from the Light Novel on LP archive

I mean, yes, I know that it kills Herc seven times.

I'm asking for a statement that it's seven times more powerful than his durability or attack potency. "Destroy my body seven-fold" doesn't really establish anything for a multiplier.

 

[LehenDuo]

Merodach is Caliburn's ancestor as swords of selection
''The son cannot surpass the father.'' bullshit.
Merodach and Caliburn are ''the same mystery'', but Merodach, as older and the progenitor, is higher ranked. And, as Rin says, a higher mystery > weaker one.
It like the scene with Lugh, he no sells any modern magecraft because he himself is a older, stronger mystery than anything modern magecraft normally uses.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

However calcs may make the multiplier irrelevant, as Excalibur Morgan was able to match Bennu, which is High 7-A apparently, however I would like more clarification on that kind of stuff, I know very little about all these Grand Order Feats, I would like more clarification from everyone about the 6-C Ishtar feat and if scales to anyone, also more clarification on Excalibur Morgan matching Bennu

We agreed on the last thread that we weren't scaling Anti-Army NPs to Anti-Fortress NPs, though. Excalibur Morgan just straight-up vaporizes average servants, you're not really backscaling anything from that to physicals.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why not calc this? its Excalibur Galatine Rank A+ Anti-Army NP

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Why not calc this? its Excalibur Galatine Rank A+ Anti-Army NP

Is that supposed to be a hole in the clouds below them or a hole in the ground

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is that supposed to be a hole in the clouds below them or a hole in the ground

its a hole in the ground with a long streak extending outward from the hole/crater. Excalibur Galatine's maximum range is 13 Kilometers

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

We agreed on the last thread that we weren't scaling Anti-Army NPs to Anti-Fortress NPs, though. Excalibur Morgan just straight-up vaporizes average servants, you're not really backscaling anything from that to physicals.

Oh I completely agree, I just wanted that kind of stuff clarified, I know Anti-Army<Anti-Fortress NP's, I just wanted to know what NP's scale to those higher NP's

Honestly I'm extremely iffy on scaling NP's via Rank as those may not be a good indicator of scaling Noble Phantasm's, I feel that Rank is just mean't to specify the quality of a specific Noble Phantasm as opposed to it's actual power, for instance someone can be a boxer and have a really high quality punch, but it doesn't mean said high quality punch has the same power as a high quality nuke for instance

Ranks are so weird to me, because I don't think that Ionioi Hetairoi, which is an EX Rank NP scales above Excalibur, an A++ Rank NP in terms of power, it just means that Ionioi Hetairoi is the best level Reality Marble NP, while Excalibur is just a solid Anti-Fortress NP, they're not ranked by power and AP, but by quality of what they are

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel that Rank is just mean't to specify the quality of a specific Noble Phantasm as opposed to it's actual power, for instance someone can be a boxer and have a really high quality punch, but it doesn't mean said high quality punch has the same power as a high quality nuke for instance

I agree with this substantially, however Lancelot had some large problems with this claim and it's apparently something that's been debated many times before.

 

[John985]

The highest rank is A+++. EX are something you can't scale normally. And Ionioi Hetairoi isnt really attack like Excalibur.

Also, a truly exceptional ability score that falls outside the numerical ranking scale is represented by an EX.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is my stance when it comes to Noble Phantasms, there's two major things we need to do in this specific order

1. Check what type of Noble Phantasms it is, Anti-Army NP's have the potential to scale to each other based on Rank, but an Anti-Army NP and Anti-Unit NP can't scale to each other unless directly shown to be comparable in power, we shouldn't assume any kind of comparison based solely on Rank, so if an Anti-Army NP and Anti-Unit NP are both Rank A, they don't scale to each other based on that alone, if we are shown or told that a specific Anti-Unit NP is comparable to the power of an Anti-Army NP, then they can scale, but otherwise Rank alone should never be used for different types of NP

2. If we have two NP of the same Type, then we can scale via Ranks, for instance an A Rank Anti-Army NP would scale stronger in power than a B Rank Anti-Army NP since their the same type and one is of a higher Rank

This is what we should do for all Noble Phantasm scaling, it's confusing as hell, but very doable if we follow these guidelines

 

[LehenDuo]

I agree with this substantially, however Lancelot had some large problems with this claim and it's apparently something that's been debated many times before.

I think the point is that to look unidimensionally at ranks will always lead to weird situations.

The ''highest quality punch'' really is so when it's not doing any damage at all? At that point, what quality does it have? Isn't intrinsic to the idea of ''a good punch'' the idea of ''doing damage/being effective''?

 

[Schnee_One]

I forgot that Benny had a High 7A calc that was on Saber Alters file

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Who is Benny?