Maybe cause she's a joke-character?
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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
Tdjwo
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There's a controversial question that has been bothering my mind for a while now.
Shouldn't The Root have a High 1A tier or possibly TIer 0 since it transcends any dimensional theories? On this site, Tier 1A is still treated as a dimensional theory since it's described as a number of dimensions equal to the Cardinal aleph-2.
We know the root is unreachable to any notion or amount of dimensions via its description. Tier 1A still falls under amounts of dimensions even if its size is larger in alephs than the lower tiers.
Wouldn't Tier High 1A be more appropriate based on its description?
What do you guys think?
Shouldn't The Root have a High 1A tier or possibly TIer 0 since it transcends any dimensional theories? On this site, Tier 1A is still treated as a dimensional theory since it's described as a number of dimensions equal to the Cardinal aleph-2.
We know the root is unreachable to any notion or amount of dimensions via its description. Tier 1A still falls under amounts of dimensions even if its size is larger in alephs than the lower tiers.
Wouldn't Tier High 1A be more appropriate based on its description?
What do you guys think?
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Ubdon and I discussed tier high 1-A root
Tdjwo
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I see. Was there any conclusion?
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Wdym? She is an avatar that hosts the embodiment of Capitalism.
| Nemo I agree with Mash. Though I also can't help but wonder: If not eldritch power, what DID get into you, XX? Heroine XX I'm not sure. We don't really have anything like an outer universe back in the Servantverse. Van Gogh Heh, ehehe... Isn't it obvious? It was the great evil god you know as...capitalism... |
When she succumbs to despair and gets possessed, she becomes capable of running a bunch of investments, paywalls, and scams:
| Heroine XX Hehehe... Hehehehe... Hey Master, can you believe it...? This... My little corner of the sea...is amazing... I have void affiliates...void paywalls... Void video hacks...void pyramid schemes... And best of all...I can make as many void customers as I want...so theoretically, I can also make all the void money I want... I'm even working on establishing a void fund to invest in void agriculture and void cruise ships... I'm a full-fledged void tycoon now... |
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Foreigner (MHXX)
Foreigner (フォーリナー, Fōrinā?) is a Foreigner-Class Servant who is playable in Fate/Grand Order. She first appears in the Servant Summer Festival event. Her real identity is Mysterious Heroine XX, the grown up version of Mysterious Heroine X. Having come back to Earth on paid leave, MHXX is a space...
vsbattles.fandom.com
I don’t see authority on her profile (authority resistances)
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Would fall under the general Servant resistances.
vsbattles.fandom.com
Servant Physiology
Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Can they be 6-D considering she is low 1-C? (Or are they stuck as 4-D)Would fall under the general Servant resistances.
Servant Physiology
Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...
cause this matchup is up right now
Tdjwo
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You ignored my next question
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While I guess this is technically correct, it would be a massive NLF and over extrapolation as nothing in the Nasuverse (that I know of) ever mentions larger transfinite cardinals and there's no indication that 'dimensional theory' in the verse extends that far. On the wiki, these types of statements seem to be treated as 1-A by default/as a minimum if no further information is given.
A couple of months ago, Ultima made a thread about tier 1/0 justifications where he seemed to imply the possibility of Tier 0 Root based on vaguely similar reasonings (although his argument was more to do with apophatic theology), but it was thrown out due to being an over extrapolation of information.
The issue with this is, if we take the whole "beyond dimensional theory" stuff to its absolute logical extreme, then the Root would be Tier 0. If the number of dimensions was equal to the smallest inaccessible cardinal, then that would be a High 1-A cosmology. If there were a Berkeley Cardinal or Maholo Cardinal number of dimensions, then the cosmology would reach Tier 0, and so on so forth.
So technically, dimensional theory could reach all the way into tier 0 depending on how many dimensions there are, but since inaccessible cardinals or transfinite cardinals are never mentioned in verse in relation to the cosmology, then 1-A is the max we could get.
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assuming no NLF, transcending the concept of space would be tier 0 because the concept of space would likely encompass all possible extentions of space including infinite d space, aleph 1 d space, inaccessible cardinal d space, etc
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I mean... probably. This likely depends on how a particular verse treats the "concept of space"; whether it includes all possible extensions or just what can exist within the verse. If, for example, a verse specified that a 6-D space was physically impossible then the 'concept of space' would likely cap at 5-D.
The only verse that I can think of that describes 'space' with infinite cardinals would be Self-Reference Engine, in which the multiverse contains a universe for every possible theorem and the number of theorems is said to extend into the Large Cardinals. This means that the multiverse itself has a tier 0 number of universes.
Although as I said previously, none of this applies to Fate.
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erm, i am talking about concept of space by default not how the verse treats it
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The is no singular definition for the 'concept of space'. That varies wildly depending on religion, philosophy, fiction,...etc.
But I get what you mean. Sorry for being pedantic.
Tdjwo
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Ultima intended to make Apophatic Theology the epitome of Tier 0. But right now, it's only seen as 1A at the bare minimum. The Root, in this case, is apophatically beyond every extension and description in the Nasuverse, which would include the concepts of time and space and every dimensional theory. If 1A is still treated as an aleph size and dimensions, then it's something that is still below Root's description of being above all dimensional theories. Before the description of Tier 1A got changed, the Root could only be 1A at max, but this new description makes the root High 1A by default if we were to follow the context of the root's description being above any 1A context.
You are right. That's why I also added a possible Tier 0 as well. The Root's description is something that logically should be on that level. It has Apophatic Theology and its also above-dimensional theories, which extend to Tier High 1A-0. If something is stated to be above dimensional theories, and this site puts such a statement at a particular tier, then there's not really much any reason to disprove it. If being above dimensional theories was tier 2; the root would be that. If it were extended to Tier High 1B, the root would be 1A. Now that it extends to 1A, the root should logically be above that, and it's even Apophatically unreachable to any notion of dimension this wiki holds, which should make it a tier above 1A.
We accepted the Root as 1A in the past, even when it didn't have Aleph 2 within the verse. And it was based on the fact that it was above dimensional theories and was also apophatic to it, which was just tiered at 1A at that time. Now that dimensions extend into 1A, the root should be High 1 A or possibly Tier 0 if dimensions also extend into High 1A based on the previous reasonings.
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I think you're missing my point. You first must prove that 'dimensional theory' in the Nasuverse extends into the transfinite cardinals. As cardinals are never mentioned in the Nasuverse (to my knowledge at least), then there is no way to prove that an aleph-2 or aleph-3 dimension exists. We treat the Root as 1-A as that is the min default for these things.
I know that 1-A is treated as being equivalent to an aleph-2 dimension in size but that doesn't mean that every instance of 1-A spaces in fiction are aleph-2 dimensional. For example, in the Cthulhu Mythos The Outer Extension is treated as 1-A despite it being described as "undimensioned".
It wouldn't be High 1-A by default tho. If we agree that dimensionality can extend into the large cardinals then it would be tier 0.
This is something I do agree with. The various descriptions of the Root make it sound like something that should be in those really high tiers, but you know, wiki rules and stuff.
That's the issue tho. The wiki doesn't have a set tier for 'dimensional theories'. It is wholly dependent on the verse in question. Yes, the wiki uses dimensions and cardinals to describe high tiers, but that is mainly for simplicity sake. Yes, if we assume that dimensional theory extends to all possible cardinals the Root should be tier 0, but we can't make that assumption.
Can you prove to me that Nasu or anyone at Type Moon even know what transfinite cardinals are? The reason Ultima's apophatic theology thread was rejected was because most staff disagreed with the heavy over extrapolation beyond the author's apparent knowledge. Unless stated directly, we cannot assume that dimensional theory in the Nasuverse extends beyond High 1-B.
I explained this part above. Not every verse treats 1-A as a dimension.
The wiki switched to dimensional tiering years ago. I'm pretty sure when the thread that made the Root 1-A was originally made 1-A was already treated as aleph-2.
This isn't me trying to disagree with the notion of High 1-A/0 Root entirely. I would honestly love to see the franchise reach those high tiers
Tdjwo
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I mean, any tier that has to do with the concept or notion of dimensions in terms of cardinals or alephs should automatically fall under the descriptions of dimensional theories. It wouldn't really make sense to claim something is above every dimensional theory, yet it's restrained by the same notions. Truthfully, we never saw a transfinite cardinal mentioned within the verse, but that's exactly the same way we never saw an aleph-2 mentioned in verse but being above dimensional theories was enough to get it to 1A. Now that dimensions are claimed to reach on into Tier 0, the main default for the root should also be that.
I agree with this, and I know that already which is why I think the Root should be able to reach High 1A or 0 based on this context as well. There might not have been any aleph 2 and 3 mentioned in the verse but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to reach such a tier if its stated to be above dimensional theories and it's completely unreachable by any means or size due to it being apohatic in nature which indirectly makes it an inaccessible cardinal to the notions of dimensions.
But on this site, dimensionality extends to Tier 0, right? Then the root should be TIer 0. I only said Tier High 1A previously because I didn't want to look so foolish. But after looking back at it and reading your comment, I don't think the root reaching Tier 0 sounds illogical.
I'm glad you think the same. The root by itself sounds like an inaccessible cardinal in comparison to dimensional theories because its specifically stated to be unreachable by dimensional theories via apophatic theology.
I see no reason why dimensional theories wouldn't encompass the entirety of the concepts of dimensions, cardinals and alephs. According to Wikipedia(not the best source Ik but that's the only source I could find), this is how it defines dimensional theories.
Afaik, the Root is one of the very few structures that use such a description on this site which might be the reason why there's no specific tier for "dimensional theories." It's not common enough to be talked about or extrapolated on. But logically, if dimensions truly reach tier 0, the root should be on that tier.
Truthfully, I can't prove to you that anyone in Type moon knows what transfinite cardinals are. But when there is a description about it existing above such a notion, there isn't much to do to disprove it. The only reason I made this question and post is that dimensions exist in 1A, and the root is logically above dimensions and any of its theories that exists which would include transfinite cardinals...logically.
I think you misunderstood me. What I'm trying to say is Tier 1A used to be based on the fact that you transcend the notions of dimensions and its concepts. That's why the Root was 1A. But currently, dimensions and its concept exists in Tier 1A which already makes it lower than the root's description.
I understand lol. I tend not to have anything to do with Reddit. I don't consider their existence at all.
It's perfectly fine if you don't want to reply to this comment since it looks too long to read. Sorry for the bother.
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why couldn’t they just give boudica apply Roman trait to enemies, I mean we have Romulus=quirinus but it proves she’s terrible because you need a limited time servant to actually use boudica’s full potential.
don’t get why lasengle didn’t just give boudica an apply enemy trait to enemies, would make boudica more useful and more popular.
don’t get why lasengle didn’t just give boudica an apply enemy trait to enemies, would make boudica more useful and more popular.
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Also I read something about people bitchin about Sheba getting a new buff regarding np gain. (Something something fix her np/something else instead of just np charge for rank up quests)
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Nah it's fine, I read all of it. I've written longer responses to people before so no need to worry
Yes and no. While this is true for the wiki, if you want to upgrade the Root then you would have to prove that large cardinals fall under dimensional theory in the Nasuverse. Dimensional Theory/higher spatial dimensions aren't exactly a proven science so we can't make assumptions as to how dimensions are treated in fiction. I understand where you're coming from, but rules be rules.
While I can't exactly disprove tier 0 dimensions in the Nasuverse, it is also impossible for you to prove their existence. This is why I keep mentioning the point of cardinals never being mentioned. We don't know exactly how dimensional theory works in the Nasuverse, so without a direct statement, we can't prove that tier 0 dimensions exist. While their existence can certainly be extrapolated, it cannot be proven.
For tier 1/0 stuff, extrapolation normally isn't good enough. Stuff like this needs to either be directly stated or heavily implied for it be accepted. It's the same reason why Type 4 Multiverses are treated as 1-A by default whereas they should logically be tier 0. The wiki doesn't like assumptions, especially with high tiers.
Nah, I know what you meant. I know that the wiki used to treat 1-A as "beyond dimensions" and "outside time and space", but that wasn't why the Root became 1-A. I'm pretty sure Tier 1-A and above encompassing dimensions and what not was already in place when the Root was upgraded.
The reason the Root is 1-A and not 0 is because, as I previously said, not every instance of 1-A in fiction has to be dimensional. Take my previous example. The Outer Extension is beyond all dimensions within the Cthulhu Mythos, but it is only 1-A as the mythos can only be proven to have High 1-B number of dimensions.
The Root is 1-A because it being apophatic means that it is beyond all possible extensions and since the cosmology is already known to have upwards of 8-dimensions due to the Moon Cell, the Root must be beyond all extensions of 8-D (9-d, 10-d, 11-d...etc). However, the reason that these extensions don't extend all the way into tier 0 is due to how cardinals work. Inaccessible Cardinals are named as such because their existence must be axiomatically asserted in order for them to exist. You cannot prove the existence of an inaccessible cardinal using only the transfinite cardinals. Similarly, transfinite cardinals cannot be reached with just simply arithmetic and require axiomatic assertions to exist. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that the number of dimensions extends beyond High 1-B.
I feel like I've said all that I can on the topic. The Root being 1-A is a safe low-ball based on the info we have, but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets upgraded in the future. All we need to pretty much guarantee a high 1-A/0 rating is any vague mention of set theory / cardinals, but I don't know how likely that is. I doubt anyone at Type Moon is a massive maths nerd.
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btw can anyone answer my sheba and boudica questions please
thanks
thanks
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Uni+ and Possibly Low 1-C striking strength Caren when?
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Mhxx profile is not finished.
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What about my questions regarding boudica and Sheba.
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The upgrade thread will come(whenever crimson decides to make it lol), just be patient were waiting for TL's and stuff
Tdjwo
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U-Olga Marie: WHY WON’T YOU DIE
Daybit:
Daybit:
Maxeez
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Like ?
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But how did daybit have the alien god’s heart guys?
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Tee took it after olga was os by kuku attack
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Sounds ironic given that popes are supposed to be celibate
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Well the Valentine scene are not with pope but with s.ibuki, kuku, and city girl
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Implying the previous valentine events aren'r horny
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just how horny were they?
