Nasuverse Discussion Board 23

[KnightOfSunlight]

So for Saber's scaling, it would be:

Baseline <<< BB < MMC Servants < Moon Crux Servants < Moon Cell amped Artoria Pendragon and Saber Venus Nero Claudius =< Weakened Sefar/Titan Attila < Full Power Sefar/Velber

I didn't include Kiara because we still haven't decided whether she's above, equal, or below BB

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Forgive me the bluntness, but an Extella Saber profile is bloody redundant. Saber being that powerful makes no sense just because "moon cell amp". Not to mention I don't remember when did she ever have Avalon in Extella.

It's starting to feel a little too much like making powerful profiles for the sake of making them.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

It's... a key. On her normal profile. Not a seperate profile.

And she defeated Moon Crux Tamamo with relative ease. Moon Crux Tamamo, who can damage Sefar, and is High 3-A to Low 2-C.

She can use Avalon in normal gameplay during Extella.

 

[Paul_Frank]

But wE aRe An InDeXiNg WiKi

So we need all the profiles and keys ovo

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Key or not, it is still incredibly redundant.

Yes, we also have Karna killing Sefar if we follow the ending. We also have Arthuria winning against Gil and Iskander. Coming outside of this, we also have Balmung matching Vasavi Shakti after a command seal boost. We also have Saber Nero blocking Excalibur Galatine in the Extra anime. We also have Nitocris beating Ozy, who is not even fighting alone.

You can pretty much win in this game with any Servant that you pick from the roster, but this dabbles a bit too close to videogame mechanics to me personally. There's no implied boost at any point for Saber, or Jeanne or Iskander, they are just very powerful Servants used by the Moon Cell. Even Saber having Avalon, because it seems pretty similar to La Pucelle and Vasavi Shakti being able to be used more than once.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl

We should still add Avalon to her profile, just separate from her normal durability, showing how strong her defense is when she has Avalon at her disposal, I mean she does use it at one point, so adding it to her profile wouldn't be a con

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I don't agree with that, as it crosses into the "character lost item for the key but is somehow still able to use it".

Best I can agree with is putting it as optional equipment and noting that normally Saber wouldn't have it.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

@LSirLancelotDuLacl Saber literally states that she's being boosted by the moon cell, like what?

Did you even watch her story?

There's a big difference between all of these things, especially later on in your list, Lance. And this still doesn't change that she beat Moon Crux Tamamo-no-Mae. All of the other feats are either explained away (Gil and Iskandar losing to a Moon Cell amped Artoria is blatantly obvious since it's servant Gil and Iskandar, not Full Power Gil and Iskandar, and she already defeated someone an infinity above them earlier) or are different scenarios entirely (Nero blocking Excalibur Galatine)

I understand if it doesn't sit well with you to have her with a new key, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore something she blatantly does, especially given she has a given explanation for being far stronger than she usually is.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It has nothing to do with me not sitting well with me, it has to do with it not being possible unless you ignore things.

I will have to look for the part that mentions this boost then, I don't remember it.

No, it has everything to do with it. Because fate has obviously shown that scaling can be outright ignored at times for the sake of the story, and Extella wouldn't be an exception to this. Literally even the Material Book Lampshades how she's mostly a cameo except for her side story, and she somehow defeats fellow Top Servant Iskander who is also with Gilgamesh, or are we going to assume THEY pull off all the stuff they pull off in their own stories while being infinitely below Saber? Is that how this suddenly works? Or would we assume Iskander isn't getting boosted, if this Boost is there, despite the fact Iskander has command of attack programms, like the bearers of the Regalia? Or that Gil is infinitely weaker despite the fact his faction consists of the 2 Top Servants besides Saber summoned by the Moon Cell and he's not overshadowed by them? Or are we really going to expect they were complete idiots and only symbolically stood in her way as 7-As against a High 3-A character at minimum? What about, I don't know, Gil's own side story where he trashes the very same Arthuria? Or are we supposed to believe she's not empowered now? Or that HE is?

Yes, it makes no sense and I am entirely against it.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

So, we just ignore that she defeated a Moon Crux, and is actively being boosted by her own account, ignore that she had no trouble with any servants before this, and ignore that the Moon Cells boosts have previously made characters at this level before because Fate ignores scaling sometimes.

Go watch the story. She states that she is being amped by the Moon Cell. Add on, once more, that Archimedes states that if she were to find Sefar, she would pose an actual threat to her. He then states that she wouldn't find her because her instincts couldn't unravel the steps he took to hide her.

We can't just ignore this because Fate ignores scaling. We can't just say "Oh this was Full Power Gil" since he was actively dying due to the Dark Side of the Moon's influence, which Gil has never had happen to him in all of CCC.

Add on again, that Tamamo states that "even with the Regalia" she couldn't beat Saber, "as expected of the girl with the holy sword"

There is plentiful evidence. Ignoring it is lying to ourselves.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Anyway, I'm going to sleep, so night.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Since we're past 450 comments, I've made the new thread.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yes, because by your proposal we ignore all that I have just said, we also ignore Gilgamesh's final sidestory mission where Nero comments how overpowered he is and directly says even with Regalia Mode he's too strong to overcome. We also ignore Gilgamesh being easily able to interrupt the battle between Altera and Jeanne, Jeanne who is another Top Servant summoned by the Moon Cell who should be getting boosted just as Saber because she was sent to stop Altera, but not only can Altera match her, Gil disposes of her without issue and then Altera wins merely because Gilgamesh holds back.

We would also ignore Iskander logically scaling as well by being summoned as another Top Servant and directly showing he has administrative rights by commanding around the attack programs, which only the Regalia users can do. And by being able to battle Altera and win in their second fight, which should obviously scale him to Jeanne if being a Top Servant like her already did not.

Let's also ignore the times you do defeat her and, surprise, Gilgamesh also kicks her ass without much issue in their fight. But then she goes and beats both him and Iskander.

There's no plenty evidence, there's a battle royale game with multiple endings and extremely contradicting scenarios as I blatantly pointed out. Gil has more consistency for being beat with his implied holding back against Altera as example.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Since my last CRT was getting messy, clogged, and just a straight up mess. I decided to break it up into parts. These are strictly only missing abilities. The first segement or part 1 is about BB.. Here's the link https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3302437