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DemonGodMitchAubin

He/Him
VS Battles
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Ok, so the current 6-C rating that all of the Servants scale to is completely nonsensical, it comes from randomly scaling the Servants to 1/5 the rating of the High 6-C Lion King calc, because Gawain barely survived it and being 1/5 as strong as it is apparently valid, but it's not, the best we can do is scale the characters back to Baseline High 6-C off of that feat, but since the Lion King is a Divine Spirit and is above the regular servant, it makes no sense to fully scale every single servant to that calc, so we need some options

Berserker's Phyiscal strikes are stated to be able to destroy mountains and the calc been accepted as Low 7-B

Apparently it was said that the Caster Class Card has the power to destroy Fuyuki City, which was calced and accepted as 7-B

Pretty much everyone in Fate Stay Night can match and clash with Berserker's strikes, it's even said in Archer and Shirou's battle that Archer strikes him with an attack that is as strong as Berserker's strikes, so that's a good baseline for all of the Base Servant's physical stats, but since Gawain did survive the Lion King's High 6-C attack, then we should be able to give them a possibly rating back to Baseline High 6-C, I have no idea how valid the destroying Fuyuki City feat is, but if it's legit with her standard attacks, then that may also work for scaling, so the ratings we would scale to every servant would be...

"At least Low 7-B, possibly High 6-C" (At least 1.45 Megatons, possibly 100 Gigatons)

or...

"At least 7-B, possibly High 6-C" (At least 10.7 Megatons, possibly 100 Gigatons)

Another possibility for scaling Servants is that we know Overloaded Caliburn managed to kill Berserker 7 times, so if we want to highball and say that one of his lives could have survived 1/8 of the magical energy and would therefore scale to 1/8 of a Noble Phantasm, then that's a possibility as well
 
I agree 100% with the OP and I planned on addressing the 6-C nonsense myself but you hit the nail on the head with this one.



Although I also have issues with High 6-C as that produces lot of inconsistencies. Gawain barely survived the attack, his durability shouldn't scale.
 
I wish we had a better option, but I may need to agree here. I wish we had a method to get an exact value below High 6-C that gawain is, but if we don't then that's our only option here. I do not have time to argue, but I'll give my support in the understanding that I may change that later.

The tier range is a good compromise. I would have disagreed if we just dropped tier 6 outright
 
Btw, since the High 6-C from Excalibur comes from x7 Herc, Morgan has another feat that may be useful for this. Namely, it's above the Bennu asteroid, as can be seen in Shinjuku when her attack destroyed it as it was falling. If you divide it by 7, since that's the multiplier used for killing Herc, you get 172 megatons, aka mountain level.
 
My stance is the same as always.

The scaling to High 6-C should remain as a likely. The only thing saying Gawain "barely survived", after I took a closer look, is basically the goddamn dumb wikia that is only good for references. Nothing indicates Gawain barely survived, or got nearly killed, he's even completely fine the next time we see him even though nobody would try to heal him as it was the punishment given by the Lion King. So again, Likely should be kept.

I don't wanna use anything Prillya related if it can be helped at all, but meh, Low 7-B and 7-B work.

That said, you shouldn't use Shirou's narration at all, that is most likely an hyperbole. Any Servant not on Berserker's level should downscale from him. This is an Archer that was left with little energy after blocking Lancer's Gae Bolg, got none from Caster obviously and then killed her, and after that roamed for like a day without a master. Even if he can remain around for 2 days easily, he was so spent from magical energy that there is no way he was at his peak. Saber overpowered a Lancer that was holding back, while Archer was mostly equal even while having a proper supply of mana from Rin, and that same Saber gets her ass handed to her and almost killed against Berserker except when she uses the graveyard to her advantage, so by no means should every Servant be directly comparable to Heracles, much less Archer.
 
The jump from 7-B to High 6-C is a pretty big jump in tier, any reason to assume the latter isn't an outlier when tier 7 is a lot more consistent with the rest of the verse? Like that's a gap that's quite literally thousands of times higher than 7-B. Having every Servant be High 6-C seems odd wherever a lot of them aren't portrayed as nearly that strong.



Could I also see the scans for the Gawain stuff? I'm seeing some claims but no citation.



Edit: Also apparently surface area is to taken into consideration since this was the argument used for Jack from One Piece not scaling fully to 6-C since the trunk that struck him was kilometers in comparison to his much smaller surface area. I don't 100% agree with this reason but it's worth noting.
 
"The jump from 7-B to High 6-C is a pretty big jump in tier"

This isn't really valid as there are many profiles that huge jumps from a certain rating and possibly rating, I've seen many "6-B, possibly 5-B", "4-A, possibly 2-C"'s and many many more profiles that have huge jumps like that, I mean some jumps between a certain and possibly rating are effectively infinite AP wise, so that's not a good reason to get rid of the possibly High 6-C
 
The actual scene. Gawain is blasted out of the city, but Mordred clearly says he survives. Nothing more is said in anything else I can find, beyond the fact that he's perfectly okay when we next see him. But if I missed a scene, I'd like to know which.

A pretty big tier jump doesn't matter if there's a solid feat to scale from and no real anti feats. Not to mention direct comparison from Nasu that a C rank NP is comparable to an A/A+ Rank normal attack, and then pretty consistent A Rank NPs with tier 6 stuff (Attila destroying Rome, Santa Quetz's being compared to the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs, Ishtar destroying Connacht with Gugalunna, Shuten's NP burning a whole province of Japan despite its main feature being inflicting Status Debuffs and not dealing damage), so unless C and A is a difference of hundreds of times....

Of course, I don't think they should all be the exact same AP purely on rank, but they should be close for sure.
 
No I meant as in the calc itself being the outlier and scaling that to them. The profiles like that are usually arbitrary, since the feats they scale to is usually a singular feat that can be interpreted as let's say 7-A or Low 2-C.


This is a different cases since they'd be scaling to two calcs, with one being immensely higher than the other.
 
Arash's NP was used to deflect an attack from the Lion King that was meant to kill (iirc) 7 Servants at once. he succeeded in saving everyone's life, but you should know how his NP works lol

Anyways, I agree with LSirLancelotDuLac's stuff
 
You are free to show how many profiles really are an "arbitrary singular feat" that can have such differences.

Also, this is the literal definition in the attack potency area:

"Likely​

Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should be favourable.

Possibly​

Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

Under such circumstances, I really have no clue why them having a Likely or Possibly is such an issue.

Just as an example of what I mean, Manhattan's page. First is due to being able Mister **** his name, second is from being made of an energy implied to be the direct opposite and equal to the energy of Perpetua, two different things entirely.

Scarlet King, main tier for ******* around with creation, possible one for affecting one thing in specific, so only one feat to boot.

I can link the Primordials from God of War, who have 3-A for the creation of the universe and Possibly Low 2-C from Cronos who created time, then 2-C from comparing to Old Kratos doing shit over with the Norse dudes.

So unless these are all wrong, which you are free to prove, nah there are many that aren't a singular feat and this ain't a rule of any sort.
 
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Are there any feats within the tier 6 range? What I'm arguing is an issue of consistency, most of the calcs I've seen in the verse barely breach 7-A, none of the several calcs are remotely close to 6-C so it seems odd to scale them to much, much higher feats than what most of the verse has. If there are other feats to support that rating I'm fine with it.
 
Are there any feats within the tier 6 range? What I'm arguing is an issue of consistency, most of the calcs I've seen in the verse barely breach 7-A, none of the several calcs are remotely close to 6-C so it seems odd to scale them to much, much higher feats than what most of the verse has. If there are other feats to support that rating I'm fine with it.
Base stats such as physical strength? Not that I am aware of except Gawain scaling


the strength level of Noble Phantasms have a lot https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3695412
 
My point was simply that Noble Phantasms are totally superior to Servants, but it has never been implied that it is by literal orders of magnitude. The fact some of the more resilient Servants can still survive some NPs is just further proof of it.

Or Siegfried doing the same when he downgrades the power of most to like E rank. Unless, again, there is a difference of hundreds of times between NP Ranks, it makes no sense. Or Karna, who took Balmung to the face when bolstered by his flames.
 
Question, what about characters who use their phsyical strength for their noble phantasm? I may not be knowledgeable on some of these characters though so there maybe context that explains it

For example Caster Xuanzang Sanzang
 
I added context, that NPs are in that range and Servants can survive some of the weaker ones, or stronger ones if they have very strong defenses.

But unless those are in the orders of magnitudes stronger, it makes no sense.

Edit: That's a boost above their normal AP, so still not applicable.
 
That's still a NP, Noble Phantasms are a Servants' strongest attack, their regular stats shouldn't scale to them.
 
"it shouldn't scale to them"

If you aren't even trying to read what I write, don't act like you did. Karna's armor reduces attacks by 90%. If Servants are hundreds of times under their NP, that doesn't make sense. If ranks don't have dozens of times difference in AP between ranks, Siegfried's defense wouldn't do shit to most NPs.

But they do. Yet you keep wording it like I am saying they scale to their full yield. Not even addressing the point that possibly can be used even if the feat is above the first tier. I literally linked 3 examples above of profiles using possibly with entirely different feats.
 
Ah yeah NP's shouldn't scale to the pshycial stats of Servants, especially the enegry based ones, also I'm not sure how consistent it is for characters in the verse being able to take or endure NP's, which are typically beyond anything Servants can do typically.


Some Servants are naturally more durable than others. From what I'm seeing Servant's for the most part shouldn't scale physically from their NP's, as it's seen as an ultimate attack where Servants are capable of doing shit they typically aren't able to do normally. Scaling them to or down from their NP's kinda defeats the purpose of it being their trump cards. I'm fine with a "possibly" for them but I'm still not fully sold on that argument and that won't change.
 
Screenshot_20191115-160351.png
Screenshot_20191115-160418.png

Here's Ishtar creating a storm, clearly through KE too since the storm clouds were approaching.

Also, while we are here can we fix Servant's LS? Asterios carries Drake's ship, which weights over 1000 tons, and Quetz lifted and backdropped the big bull, which is a Class T feat.
 
"NP shouldn't scale, let me disregard pretty much everything said beyond this one point".

Well, obviously we would never reach an agreement with this way of addressing things.
 
That's still a NP, Noble Phantasms are a Servants' strongest attack, their regular stats shouldn't scale to them.
This is also only true half the time. See: Arash's arrows destroying the walls of Ozymadias's temples, which completely tank your average anti-army noble phantasm and Holmes's martial arts being able to hit with the force of a noble phantasm.
 
Yeah, a feat being preformed by an NP doesn't mean it can't be used for scaling, especially since we see that NP's don't just automatically delete any servant they touch, and can be survived.

Things like the Bennu calc would be able to scale, because, despite Excalibur being her "strongest attack" it is, surprise, not an instant deletion to every servant. There are things like backscaling Herc off it for instance, which can then scale to those who directly hurt him.

The argument of "an NP shouldn't scale because its their strongest attack" doesn't make sense for a fair few. The aforementioned Excalibur which doesn't instantly kill all the time, and other beam NPs which have that same limit, there are examples of people surviving or clashing against NPs in the series, saying that "they're the strongest attack" isn't grounds for then not scaling.

So if NPs have feats, and those NPs are able to scale to people, there's no issues with that

That said, Lancelot brought up a good point above, about Gawain not actually being said to be near death from the attack, and I'm not sure if that was really addressed much here.
 
Like, seriously, in what language do I have to talk to put it more clearly?

Siegfried weakens NP attacks, Karna does too, but not by hundreds of times. Karna's armor literally only divides their power by 10. Most tier 6 ratings for NPs remain tier 6 if divided by that amount.

And the issue of me bringing up pages that completely use a Possibly scaling derived from an entire different feat was never addressed. So what is the issue here? What consistency issues exist in using possibly here and not in the cases of those profiles?

And don't even start with "2 wrongs don't make a right", because then I'd really hope someone could explain what is wrong with those other profiles. If nothing is, what is wrong here?

Edit: I wouldn't use Excalibur as an arguing point though. The NP that killed Berserker 7 times was Caliburn, a degraded Caliburn used by Shirou and Saber when both were pretty tired and not at their best. It should scale to more powerful NPs, but not at all comparable to Excalibur.
 
Is alright. Is just that it was like my third time using that specific example but the only part that seemed to be pinpointed was "scaling people to NPs".
 
Also, while we are here can we fix Servant's LS? Asterios carries Drake's ship, which weights over 1000 tons, and Quetz lifted and backdropped the big bull, which is a Class T feat.
Quetz did that while she still had some of her divinity, so I am not sure at all about scaling that to normal Servants.

But there was also that feat of Alcides sending a bunch of rocks flying so hard it looked like an eruption after being punched straight into a mountain.
 
It is not scaling to the Lion King or a serious Divine Spirit... it is scaling to the Lion King's casual attack which was made with the intention to kill. While the 1/5 multiplier is questionable, downscaling from a low-end High 6-C to 6-C is reasonable and leaves room for error. It has been demonstrated that with the exception of E Rank the higher ranks of Strength/Endurance/Speed are not overwhelmingly different, so it is not like we'll put most servants in different tiers to each other.

There is a collection of Tier 6 feats from the upgrade CRT
 
It could be a lot worse, that's true.

So my point remains the same. I've no issue scaling to Tier 7, but no Possibly or Likely tier 6 I won't agree with.
 
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