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I'm fine with this and very much willing to help compile information.
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Nasuverse: Base Servant Stats Revisions
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
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It stopped notifying me too
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I was wondering where you were
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- Thread starter
- #565
Alright, I guess this can be closed then, for now, all Servants Base Stats will be Low 7-B until further info with the movie
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Lemme wait on Dargoo here
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Has anyone calculated Spartacus destroying the meteorite ? Asking because i feel like it would give a result quite higher than Low 7-B
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With a meteor that large it's going to be like 6-C just from a guess.
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We need more input from the calc members to prove it tho
Also isn't Spartacus used his NP in that scene?
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Spartacus used his NP. Is not scalable.
Still, I don't know what this dumb stuff about NPs being Tier 7 is, but it's pretty nonsense.
Still, 7-B base stats seem pretty settled.
Still, I don't know what this dumb stuff about NPs being Tier 7 is, but it's pretty nonsense.
Still, 7-B base stats seem pretty settled.
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Jeanne fought against a Spartacus that was way more amped by the noble phantasm, so servants would scale
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Jeanne never fought him directly, and never dealt any damage that wasn't minimal and healed in a second.
Like, the dude did a ******* Anti-Fortress level attack as his last move which Jeanne only survived because of her uber shield, which is an NP. Her scaling is nonsense.
Like, the dude did a ******* Anti-Fortress level attack as his last move which Jeanne only survived because of her uber shield, which is an NP. Her scaling is nonsense.
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Before Spartacus did the Anti-Fortress attack, his physical blows shook the cloud-level Hanging Guardian as if it is affected by an earthquake, so an argument can be made for that.
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wait, my bad, t'was Mordred
she blocks a punch
then tanks a punch
and then bysects him with a mana burst
she blocks a punch
then tanks a punch
and then bysects him with a mana burst
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Use the light novel, instead of the anime.
Anime already took a lot of liberties, like making Mordred tank Blasted Tree instead of teleporting out of its range and only taking some of it.
Anime already took a lot of liberties, like making Mordred tank Blasted Tree instead of teleporting out of its range and only taking some of it.
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i thought we threated the Fate animes as canon tho
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More like canon as long as it doesn't contradict the LN/VN material
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Yes? We treat any adaptation as canon, but as secondary canon. The source, which is the LN, is the primary canon.
If the LN and the anime differ in some way, we default for the LN.
I also wanted to check the LN for the casual melting a massive hole feat from Karna when activating VS, but most of Volume 5 is untranslated. I did see some mention in the discussion thread on beastlair that the thing did happen so that was good with me. But if it did get translated, and the context for the feat was different enough to invalidate the anime feat, it wouldn't be usable anymore.
If the LN and the anime differ in some way, we default for the LN.
I also wanted to check the LN for the casual melting a massive hole feat from Karna when activating VS, but most of Volume 5 is untranslated. I did see some mention in the discussion thread on beastlair that the thing did happen so that was good with me. But if it did get translated, and the context for the feat was different enough to invalidate the anime feat, it wouldn't be usable anymore.
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Is there any evidence in the LN showing that Mordred is incapable of fighting and bysecting big mode Spartacus ?
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I don't know, it has been a while since I read that section.
Which is why I said you can try looking it up. I myself wanna check the scene later, but right now am already busy with other stuff.
My point is that using the secondary canon instead of the primary shouldn't be done if you haven't even checked the primary canon.
Which is why I said you can try looking it up. I myself wanna check the scene later, but right now am already busy with other stuff.
My point is that using the secondary canon instead of the primary shouldn't be done if you haven't even checked the primary canon.
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In early UBW anime, Berserker doesn't deflect Caladbolg and dies, and this is a change Nasu supervised and decided to throw in.
The events in Fate/Zero also differ from how they were described in Fate/Stay Night and Hollow/ataraxia in some ways. In fact, Nasu told Narita (writer of strange Fake) that his problem is that he tries too hard to keep all timelines consistent, and that he should write original dialogue for a vision showing Fate/Zero's banquet of kings, and think of it as something that was said in a different timeline.
It sounds perfectly reasonable to me that the minor changes are chalked up as 'subtly different timeline'.
Q: Berserker took no damage from Archer's A-rank Noble Phantasm "Broken Phantasm" (Caladbolg), is it ineffective due to Berserk's Noble Phantasm, or was he simply able to withstand it naturally? <Not Mr. Shanoa>
Nasu: Oh, that. In the original work it was like "Even though up until then none of the attacks had been worth dodging, this one would have been fatal, so Berserker counters → the resulting explosion from the Noble Phantasm is devastating." Yet in the anime version it was handled as "Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates," which may be something to think about. In all he lost 2 lives because of it.
Takeuchi: Oh, so that's why God Hand in the anime version needed 3 days to recover!
Nasu: Oh, that. In the original work it was like "Even though up until then none of the attacks had been worth dodging, this one would have been fatal, so Berserker counters → the resulting explosion from the Noble Phantasm is devastating." Yet in the anime version it was handled as "Berserker could not respond to it due to a severe injury from Saber → losing one of his lives, and regenerates," which may be something to think about. In all he lost 2 lives because of it.
Takeuchi: Oh, so that's why God Hand in the anime version needed 3 days to recover!
The events in Fate/Zero also differ from how they were described in Fate/Stay Night and Hollow/ataraxia in some ways. In fact, Nasu told Narita (writer of strange Fake) that his problem is that he tries too hard to keep all timelines consistent, and that he should write original dialogue for a vision showing Fate/Zero's banquet of kings, and think of it as something that was said in a different timeline.
It sounds perfectly reasonable to me that the minor changes are chalked up as 'subtly different timeline'.
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And it sounds perfectly reasonable to me that it really doesn't matter, because we don't assume animes aren't supervised by their authors. Does this change the fact that secondary canon is secondary? It really doesn't.
Edit: Just to clarify, anime being supervised or not matters practically squat- adaptations are still secondary canon. What the author says, as well, doesn't matter if it contradicts what actually happens.
It doesn't matter what he tells Narita, if something in Strange Fake contradicts the series. This is how we use Death of the Author- The author's word only matters as much if it's consistent with what happens in the story. Not only there's no comment from Nasu for any alternate events between the Apocrypha Anime and LN, it still would be disregarded if it caused inconsistencies.
Edit: Just to clarify, anime being supervised or not matters practically squat- adaptations are still secondary canon. What the author says, as well, doesn't matter if it contradicts what actually happens.
It doesn't matter what he tells Narita, if something in Strange Fake contradicts the series. This is how we use Death of the Author- The author's word only matters as much if it's consistent with what happens in the story. Not only there's no comment from Nasu for any alternate events between the Apocrypha Anime and LN, it still would be disregarded if it caused inconsistencies.
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Since you are in total agreement with me, I take it that you also agree that feats from things secondary canon changes in this verse are valid?
Not that Mordred taking hits from transformed Spartacus contradicts the LN, as much of the fight takes places off-screen.
Not that Mordred taking hits from transformed Spartacus contradicts the LN, as much of the fight takes places off-screen.
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I am not sure where I agreed in any sense with you. What Nasu says doesn't matter if it contradicts what happens in the series. What he says also doesn't change adaptations being secondary canon, not primary. I really doubt you even tried to read anything I said.
If that is true, bring up the relevant statements from the novel please. Even if it happened off-screen, something must have been said.
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The issue isn't the labeling of primary canon or secondary canon. It is in whether secondary canon represents parallel/multiple timelines, with valid feats and showings, even if the events contradicts the timeline of the primary canon. An attitude of dismissing all contradiction assumes that the work acknowledges a singular timeline, which is blatantly false. We are talking about an in-series multiverse established by the author where different versions of events can occur.
Notifications happen for comments, not edits which can go unnoticed.
By the same logic, Tsukihime contradicts Fate/Stay Night, so we need to dismiss lots of stuff to eliminate inconsistencies.
Looking at it, only Ruler's fight takes place off-screen in the LN, Mordred hesitates after seeing Spartacus and receives orders to retreat.
Notifications happen for comments, not edits which can go unnoticed.
By the same logic, Tsukihime contradicts Fate/Stay Night, so we need to dismiss lots of stuff to eliminate inconsistencies.
Looking at it, only Ruler's fight takes place off-screen in the LN, Mordred hesitates after seeing Spartacus and receives orders to retreat.
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shouldn't it be the same no matter what with Throne of Heroes if it they are multiple different timelines?
Edit: and wouldn't that be a retcon? Where the author overwrites the old material with the new one revised version?
Edit: and wouldn't that be a retcon? Where the author overwrites the old material with the new one revised version?
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No, an attitude of dismissing all contradictions assumes that information is consistent, and even if "all adaptations are just alternate timelines" the consistency comes first. It is bogus and intellectually dishonest to even imply multiple timelines suddenly means consistency is unimportant. It doesn't matter if in an alternate reality, Sasaki manages to cut Heracles. It is impossible for him to do so, by the rules established in the setting. If a proper justification doesn't exist, then this is a contradiction that violates the common sense of the setting and is disregarded. A perfect example? Saber Alter apparently killing Heracles multiple times with the very same Mana Burst in Heaven's Feel II movie.
Not that it matters, because it won't happen. Nasu said Fate/Zero was an alternate timeline. Not the anime adaptation of Fate/Zero, Fate/Zero as a whole. And most certainly he didn't ever say the anime adaptation was a different timeline from the Zero Novel. To assume it applies to every adaptation, then, would be arbitrary and sounds like just trying to disregard how we treat secondary canon.
So things are the exact same. The source is the primary canon, the adaptations are the secondary canon. Check the Apocrypha novel first, that's it. As for what exactly am I saying that could be contradictory? Saying that Mordred compares in any way to one of the most physically imposing Servants in the War after he has already been massively buffed by his NP. I am sure anyone could understand why I would find that dubious.
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Just to clarify, I am not dismissing it because is different. I am dismissing the silly idea that if there's something in the novel that could contradict the feat, to just disregard it and go for what the anime shows "because alternate universes". This before even tackling that I do not like the idea of scaling Mordred to someone superior to her.
So, again, check the novel. Checking the primary canon costs absolutely nothing.
So, again, check the novel. Checking the primary canon costs absolutely nothing.
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- Thread starter
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Wait, Fate Zero isn't the same canon as Fate Stay Night?
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Whatever do you mean? The thing about it being an alternate timeline :O?
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Yeah, do the events of Fate Zero not happen in the past of the Fate Stay Night VN?
Or is it like, Fate Zero is similar to a version of what happened in the Fate Stay Night VN's past, but it's not exact?
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More like a number of details are different. Some say for fun, others say it is because Urobutcher is a hack.
Let me tell you some of them in private message to not derail from this.
Let me tell you some of them in private message to not derail from this.
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According to Nasu, Fate/Zero's event are similar but not exactly what happened in Stay Night's past, hence he labelled it as a "similar alternate timeline" to handle the incosistencies.
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Your threshold was low enough that if creating lava was not mentioned in the LN, then we dismiss the lava created in the anime. This means all contradiction, regardless if they break setting rules or not. Also, no contradiction with the Heaven's Feel movie; The first Mana Burst blew up Berserker's arms and legs, and a more powerful version barely killed him afterwards; Nasu clarified that when he said immunity he meant gaining extreme resistance and becoming basically immune (up to you if you believe him, or see this as trolling by trying to hide a retcon under the rug).
Most verses don't establish an in-universe multiverse, so no value in appealing to how we usually treat secondary canon. Also, the notion that Nasu puts the primary canon on a pedestal is lol; the anime version of Caster's master (Atrum) retconned the visual novel version and appears in other works (FGO, Lord El-Melloi).
Rank B+ Strength (with potential for Mana Burst boost) & Rank A Endurance vs Rank A Strength is not a massive jump and not stomp worthy. The point is that Mordred is inferior, but not to the level that she would get one-shotted; Spartacus' main trump card is the explosion/energy discharge which would definably one-shot Mordred, but it is plausible for her to survive the strength boost.
Fate/Zero takes place in a slightly different timeline with subtle differences that doesn't change the final outcome; the most obvious one is that Saber didn't dry up river Mion with Excalibur like she said she did. The only spinoff that 100% takes place in the Fate/Stay Night timeline is The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II.
Most verses don't establish an in-universe multiverse, so no value in appealing to how we usually treat secondary canon. Also, the notion that Nasu puts the primary canon on a pedestal is lol; the anime version of Caster's master (Atrum) retconned the visual novel version and appears in other works (FGO, Lord El-Melloi).
Rank B+ Strength (with potential for Mana Burst boost) & Rank A Endurance vs Rank A Strength is not a massive jump and not stomp worthy. The point is that Mordred is inferior, but not to the level that she would get one-shotted; Spartacus' main trump card is the explosion/energy discharge which would definably one-shot Mordred, but it is plausible for her to survive the strength boost.
Fate/Zero takes place in a slightly different timeline with subtle differences that doesn't change the final outcome; the most obvious one is that Saber didn't dry up river Mion with Excalibur like she said she did. The only spinoff that 100% takes place in the Fate/Stay Night timeline is The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II.
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- Thread starter
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I’m still wondering why this thread is even open, I thought we all agreed that we scale Base Stats to Low 7-B
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Fate/Hollow Ataraxia exists.
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You are either misconstruing me or completely unable to grasp what I mean at any point.
I never said this, and the fact you imply so sounds like a terrible strawman. I simply said that if anything in the LN happened that would render the VS feat inapplicable, then I would be all for discarding it. Whether it be the feat being much smaller, Karna being completely immune to the heat and therefore tanking none of it, etc. You know, like literally every other similar feat where the source material and the adaptation differs? Conversely, if the feat was even bigger, I'd be all up for calcing it and potentially using it for scaling.
A more powerful version "barely killed him"? Let's see... Saber kills him the first time, mangling his extremities some. And then kills him a second time so hard that he loses all limbs. Did I mention his third death where he is left looking like Charcoal? This certainly doesn't contradict the fact that Heracles' creates such powerful resistances that they work on NPs, right? Meaning his resistance would nullify stuff that can one-shot him, right? It would nullify something stronger than Mana Burst, but not stop the weaker Mana Burst, because that is somehow logical, right?
If in your world this is not a contradiction, you must live in fairyland.
The multiverse stuff is just meaningless trash. Multiverses don't suddenly make adaptations be as valid as the source material, and don't make contradictions suddenly be ignored. But I really don't care about telling you that right now, because if you think Saber Alter being able to kill Berserker with the same ability, multiple times, is not a contradiction, then your mind is made up and I genuinely don't care enough to try and change it.
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I brought up a feet (Spartacus destroying a giant meteorite) that could give better ratings
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This is for Base Stats
Your feat is a NP
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