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Well then, not my problem, I’m going to bed.
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Narutoverse Scaling: Kazekage Rescue Mission - Pain's Assault arcs
- Thread starter KingTempest
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Kisame never matched 7th Gate Guy. The only reason he thought he'd be able to is because his attack absorbs the chakra from his opponent's attack.
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What's your opinion on base Guy scaling to 30% Kisame?
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Guy was able to disarm 30% Kisame, but as soon as the two of them started clashing directly Guy was immediately overpowered and sent to the bottom of the lake with a punch that made him cough up blood.
These are pretty much all the relevant scans for base Guy vs. 30% Kisame.
Part of the issue is whether or not we scale Kisame's water creation jutsu to his physical strikes. Either way though, base Guy is definitely not Kisame's equal here.
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He was still able to block an attack from Kisame and survive his punch. If anything, he shod just downscale from Kisames AP.
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Blocking a single attack and getting overpowered shortly after, together with Guy's statement goes against the idea of them being even.
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Not to mention that if this logic were to be applied, then Kisame really should scale to 7th Gate Guy and KCM Naruto, who're High 7-A, which would mess up the current scaling.
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He didn't get overpowered, Kisame hit Guy with his free hand.
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Imo being able to injure someone enough to spew blood and send them "flying" through water while he struggles to block an attack from your other hand is a clear sign of being overpowered.
Edit: Especially when said other person instantly goes into a high level of his transformation and says "he has no other choice"
Edit: Especially when said other person instantly goes into a high level of his transformation and says "he has no other choice"
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That's not at all what being overpowered means. If Guy could only momentarily hold off Kisame, then yeah I'd agree, but that's not what happens.
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But he could only temporarily hold him down? He blocked Kisame's swing, after which Kisame decided to punch him.
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btw, Guy didn't block that attack physically. He blocked it with his Nunchaku, which means it was a bit easier, and even then he was clearly strained while Kisame was extremely casual.
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He used them because of Kisames shark sword that stabbed him when he took the sword away.
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If Kisame could overpower him, why bother punching him? It would have been easier to just apply more pressure to the sword and get a direct hit with that.
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Because while Guy cant get his hands off the sword at all as he is strained trying to keep it in check, he can just punch him like a punching bag, the same exact way he did.
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Why didn't Guy use one of his lower gates to overpower Kisame when he was "equal" to him? I guess we'll never know.
It doesn't change the fact that the punch made Guy spit blood and sent him flying deep into the lake.
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Exactly, he can keep it in check which means he isn't getting overpowered nor does he get one shot by the punch since he immediately recovers.
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He kept it in check but Kisame was no longer swinging with it, at that point its just a question of lifting strenght, and sure he didnt get one-shot, he just got "BTFO'd" and forced by his own words into the 6th gate.
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That could be said for literally any ability a character has. We could say that about Naruto and Sasuke, Kakashi not using the first gate and many more, I don't really think that's a valid argument to use. It's probably just Kishi not really caring about the other gates and being mrk.
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He was forced into 6th gates because there were like 5 sharks right in his face, and as you know the transformation of the 6th fate releases a shockwave which remove all the water around him, getting rid of the disadvantage he had. Also I'll be gone for a few hours, so I'll respond later.
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Kishimoto not caring isnt an argument either, as we can only go by what material was given to us, even if he wrote in something while in a half drunken daze we would still need to work with it.
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Fair enough, but still if we purely look at what happened in that encounter I don't see anything that indicates Guy is equal to Kisame. Just because a character didn't die from an attack doesn't necessarily mean they scale to it.
If we set this precedent, then we'll have many more characters scale higher than they should undeservedly.
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Okay but if he used only 1 gate which is 5x stronger and faster than said sharks, he wouldnt be forced into the 6th, as even 1 gate is plenty enough to destroy them.
Annnd aight sure sure, take care i suppose.
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Scene for that
I hope u are not talking about bee statement
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Using him not going into the first gate as an argument kinda stupid in my opinion. Guy has never used it in the first place, it's just like arguing that Kakashi never using the first gate eventhough he would have one shot and blitzed kakuzu, Hidan, and pain yet he didn't.
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It's not undeserving though since he blocks his attack and survives a punch. The purposed rating for Guy makes 30% Kisame capable of one shotting him which clearly didn't happen.
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While Kakashi can use the First Gate, it is reasonable to assume that he hasn't trained with it enough to use it reliably in combat. He might not get the same benefits from it that Rock Lee and Guy do, seeing as so far we've only seen him use it to help climb a cliff.
Kakashi's stamina and chakra levels also aren't that great early on in the series; so trying to force more chakra through his body through the Eight Gates might just exhaust him more than fighting normally.
Kakashi's stamina and chakra levels also aren't that great early on in the series; so trying to force more chakra through his body through the Eight Gates might just exhaust him more than fighting normally.
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While that may be true, it would have helped him in all of his fights during the first half of the series and he would have been able to easily deal with Haku and Zabuza. Using the argument of Guy not using the first gate to discredit him scaling seems faulty to me.
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Kisame was never casual with Guy.
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Also, there are multiple databook statements and statements from the manga that say kakashi and Guy are comparable in strength. So even if we don't scale him Kisame, he would still be 7-B scaling to Kakashi.
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Base Guy scaling to Kakashi would literally discredit those statements though, and the whole concept of them being rivals in general.
If base Guy = Kakashi, then any gate amplification will be more than enough to stomp Kakashi, which makes no sense. Plus, AFAIK, these statements don't specify whether they're comparable in base or not.
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Every statement shows base guy with no mention of the gates. It would specify if they were refering to the gates or not. Kakashi also has access to his Sharingan and a plethora of jutsu. The statements also mention "strength" being equal as well.
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Also how are we going to scale Kakashi to Itachi eventhough the only physical interaction they had is Itachi blocking Kakashi's punch
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The issue with that, IMO, is that it completely invalidates the idea of them being TRULY "equal". Kakashi is supposedly Guy's rival, equal, and even his goal is to be on his level/compete with him. Would that work in any capacity if Guy could absolutely stomp him using his only relevant ability? Like, literally any of the gates would make him astoundingly above Kakashi.
The Sharingan wouldn't matter either because we know it's not enough to cover MASSIVE gaps in strength and speed. Genjutsu also doesn't matter because Guy already developed a fighting style to counter it. Kakashi's Jutsu are mostly elemental Jutsu that wouldn't matter if the difference in power was that massive. Their rivalry just would NOT work if base Guy is = to Kakashi.
Even if we say he's equal to Kakashi in base, then we fall into the issue of deciding which Kakashi he'd scale to since Kakashi isn't a stationary character. His stats change from Part I to Part II at the very least, so which one would he scale to?
I won't get into the war arc because Kakashi is equal to 6th Gate Guy at that point, which kinda supports my point, but whatever.
There's just a lot of holes in this scaling IMHO.
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We always does this.
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No matter what we go with, this scaling will have flaws. I disagree with you on the statement portion since it only refers to their base forms, and guy only uses the gates when he goes for the kill. I'd say they would be comparable for both part one and 2 since they are still said to be rivals. It would be nice if others would try and help with scaling guy, as I seem to be the only one coming up with suggestions.
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We don't.
@UchihaSlayer96; might be an unpopular opinion but IMO a lot of these troubles came into existence once we accepted a solid multiplier for the Eight Gates.
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Well, I don't disagree tbh.
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