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Naruto - Killer Bee and Kisame 6-C clarification

EmperorRorepmeThree

EmperorRorepmeThree

5,405
1,052
Killer Bee and Kisame's 6-C should have further reasoning added.

For Kisame, he's far stronger than Suigetsu (Chapter 404, page 12 and 13), he treated Suigetsu (Chapter 380, page 9 and 10) and even all of Taka (Chapter 380, page 7 and 8) as children throwing tantrums. Suigetsu with Tate Eboshi was capable of pushing back Killer Bee in Tailed Beast Mode (Chapter 418, page 4 and 5). Bee notes that Suigetsu was able to do this because he was a strong Water Style Shinobi and had the advantage of the terrain. Kisame is a superior Water Style user than Suigetsu, he practically owns the Water Element (Naruto Sha no Sho, page 272), and he can create massive amounts of water with a (Chapter 256, page 1 and 2) fraction (Chapter 258, page 7 and 8) of his chakra (Chapter 260, page 16) even whilst busy with a sealing jutsu with his main body. He could use to perform a similar feat as Suigetsu.

Kisame's Water Release was comparable to 6th Gate Guy because Asakujaku and (Chapter 506, page 11 and 12) Kisame's Thousand Feeding Sharks stalemated (Chapter 506, page 12 and 13), and 6th Gate Guy's Asakujaku (Chapter 568, page 4 and 5) was able to push back the acid of Saiken (Chapter 568, page 6), the Six Tails.

It was also evident that Daikodan was above the capacity of 6th Gate Guy to deal with (Chapter 507, page 2 and 3), it's one of Kisame's ultimate techniques which he notes is incredibly powerful, which is the greatest praise he's given in the series, as such it should be more powerful than Suigetsu's Tate Eboshi.


I think it's very consistent for Kisame to be in these ranges, he's a strong Akatsuki member people usually consider around the middle to above the middle but below the main power trio, so he should decisively be Kage-tier and most Kage have been listed as 6-C.

rTbonbP.png


我愛羅をも掌握・・・!! 「忍」を超えた戦闘能力

Defeated even Gaara...!! Combat abilities that surpass that of shinobi.

忍の頂点 五影の一角である我愛羅が、 ”暁”の一員の手で倒された･･･その事実 は衝撃以外のなにものでもない。忍の 範疇を超えた暁 の武は、間違いなく 世界の脅威となる!

The fact that Gaara, one of the five Kage at the pinnacle of the ninja world, was defeated by a member of "Akatsuki" is nothing short of shocking. The prowess of Akatsuki, surpassing the realm of ninja, undoubtedly poses a threat to the world!

砂の里上空での交戦の 末に、”風影”敗れる・・・!!

After a battle in the skies above the Sand Village, the "Kazekage" was defeated...!!

(Naruto Hero Book by Kishimoto)


Killer Bee by the start of the war arc should be upgraded. Even in base, he's 6-C.

He was able (Chapter 543, page 13 and 14) to outmuscle A (Chapter 543, page 15 and 16) the Fourth Raikage, in a contest of strength. He was able to prove to the Raikage that (Chapter 543, page 9 and 10) he had been underestimating his base strength for years (Chapter 543, page 15) .

This could backscale to Kisame as well but probably not to Taka Sasuke since Kisame fought Killer Bee around the time of the five kage summit, which is very close to the start of the war chronologically.

It would make sense considering a weakened Kisame (Chapter 506, page 2 and 3) was able to take a full speed punch from KCM Naruto (Chapter 505, page 11 and 12) who hadn't even learnt to hold back yet.

And Naruto was about to go KCM against a weakened Kisame (Chapter 508) as seen here and here. When he clasps his hands, this usually means he's going to use KCM.

Thoughts?

Agree: Bastalon72, SlendVeny

Neutral:

Disagree:
 
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In this format right?

"<ref name=“NC(insert chapter)P(insert page)”>Naruto Chapter (insert chapter): Pages (insert pages)</ref>"
 
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Killer Bee and Kisame's 6-C should have further reasoning added.
Click to expand...
So before I get into the nitty girtty of everything, I just want to point out that Kisame's already 6-C with Water Style, so I'm fine with him being on that level and stuff.
Oh, and I'm really sorry for the late response. I've been a bit swamped IRL.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
For Kisame, he's far stronger than Suigetsu (Chapter 404, page 12 and 13), he treated Suigetsu (Chapter 380, page 9 and 10) and even all of Taka (Chapter 380, page 7 and 8) as children throwing tantrums. Suigetsu with Tate Eboshi was capable of pushing back Killer Bee in Tailed Beast Mode (Chapter 418, page 4 and 5). Bee notes that Suigetsu was able to do this because he was a strong Water Style Shinobi and had the advantage of the terrain. Kisame is a superior Water Style user than Suigetsu, he practically owns the Water Element (Naruto Sha no Sho, page 272), and he can create massive amounts of water with a (Chapter 256, page 1 and 2) fraction (Chapter 258, page 7 and 8) of his chakra (Chapter 260, page 16) even whilst busy with a sealing jutsu with his main body. He could use to perform a similar feat as Suigetsu.
Click to expand...
I kind of see the logic here, and I do agree that Kisame is both a stronger fighter and better Suiton user than Suigetsu. However, I'm not entirely sure that this in and of itself proves that Kisame can outdo this super specific technique that's only usable when certain environmental conditions are met. We don't even know if Kisame knows about this ability, so I feel like we can't say for certain that he had it in mind when he was berating Suigetsu and co. Even if he did, it's not like Suigetsu could've used it. And that's ignoring that a Suiton user as skilled as Kisame could probably neg the technique by manipulating the water anyway.

I guess in the end, I'm not wholly opposed to adding this stuff as support for the pre-existing 6-C scaling for Kisame's Suiton, but I just don't think it's all that strong on its own, personally.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Kisame's Water Release was comparable to 6th Gate Guy because Asakujaku and (Chapter 506, page 11 and 12) Kisame's Thousand Feeding Sharks stalemated (Chapter 506, page 12 and 13),
Click to expand...
Pretty sure this is already on the profile, but if you want to improve or expand upon the justification in some way, that's fine with me.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
and 6th Gate Guy's Asakujaku (Chapter 568, page 4 and 5) was able to push back the acid of Saiken (Chapter 568, page 6), the Six Tails.
Click to expand...
Ehhh, it was just some gas at the end of the day, but it doesn't matter tbh. Like, we already have 6th Gate Guy at 6-C physically, so obviously his Asakujaku is up there as well. Tbh I still believe Saiken was knocked down in that instance, but that was rejected and I don't feel like arguing against it rn, so whatever.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
It was also evident that Daikodan was above the capacity of 6th Gate Guy to deal with (Chapter 507, page 2 and 3), it's one of Kisame's ultimate techniques which he notes is incredibly powerful, which is the greatest praise he's given in the series, as such it should be more powerful than Suigetsu's Tate Eboshi.
Click to expand...
I'm a bit confused by this bit. How does Daikodan being one of Kisame's strongest techniques make it inherently stronger than Tate Eboshi? What makes you reach that conclusion? Also, low-key, he kinda attributes its "power" to the fact that it'll simply get stronger depending on how strong the opponent's attack is, since it absorbs chakra from whatever attack it comes into contact with.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:

I think it's very consistent for Kisame to be in these ranges, he's a strong Akatsuki member people usually consider around the middle to above the middle but below the main power trio, so he should decisively be Kage-tier and most Kage have been listed as 6-C.

rTbonbP.png


我愛羅をも掌握・・・!! 「忍」を超えた戦闘能力

Defeated even Gaara...!! Combat abilities that surpass that of shinobi.

忍の頂点 五影の一角である我愛羅が、 ”暁”の一員の手で倒された･･･その事実 は衝撃以外のなにものでもない。忍の 範疇を超えた暁 の武は、間違いなく 世界の脅威となる!

The fact that Gaara, one of the five Kage at the pinnacle of the ninja world, was defeated by a member of "Akatsuki" is nothing short of shocking. The prowess of Akatsuki, surpassing the realm of ninja, undoubtedly poses a threat to the world!

砂の里上空での交戦の 末に、”風影”敗れる・・・!!

After a battle in the skies above the Sand Village, the "Kazekage" was defeated...!!

(Naruto Hero Book by Kishimoto)

Click to expand...
I guess this is fine as support for the pre-existing rating.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Killer Bee by the start of the war arc should be upgraded. Even in base, he's 6-C.

He was able (Chapter 543, page 13 and 14) to outmuscle A (Chapter 543, page 15 and 16) the Fourth Raikage, in a contest of strength. He was able to prove to the Raikage that (Chapter 543, page 9 and 10) he had been underestimating his base strength for years (Chapter 543, page 15) .
Click to expand...
I have a couple of issues with this. It just doesn't......really work. It ends up resulting in circular scaling because the 6-C value (4.3 Gigatons) literally comes from Gyuki taking his Bijuudama in the first place. And we know from prior fights that B's V1, V2, and Bijuu Mode are pretty substantial amps to his power in base. We see this in the fight against Sasuke, where Bee clearly grows substantially in terms of strength and speed. He goes from being slightly stronger than Sasuke, but not to the point of Sasuke not being able to keep up at all, to just damn near one-shotting him with V1. We also see it with V2 where Bee demolished Kisame even though he was using Samehada as a shield, which is worthy of note because we know they're relative base-to-base. Same thing with Bijuu Mode, as he was generally around the Edo Jinchuriki's level in base, but then knocked them out in Bijuu Mode by simply spinning around. I think the Tailed Beast forms being amps is something we can all agree on, it's just common sense, but I just wanted to prove that it's definitely a thing in Bee's case. So him scaling to his full power in base is just going to be textbook circular scaling. We'd end up with: Bijuu Mode Bee (4.3 Gigatons) >~ V2 (Bijuu's power in humanoid form) > V1 > Base Bee > Ay > Bijuu Mode Bee

But maybe Bee just got stronger during the War Arc, no? Well, that's all well and good, but the problem is that the 4.3 Gigatons value literally comes from WA Bijuu Mode Bee, so that just doesn't work unless we say that his base is equal to his BM, which just makes no sense.

"But what about the Ay feat? We can't just ignore feats."
Not putting words in your mouth btw lol, this is more so me playing devil's advocate.
We can and do ignore feats when they cause big issues and inconsistencies that we simply cannot reconcile with the overall scaling. That's why we have Outliers and PIS as part of our standards. It always sucks when these terms are pulled out, because it feels like a copout, but they are there for a reason. Stories just aren't always perfectly consistent, unfortunately.
Personally, I think this moment is just classic PIS. It's just a moment that only exists to teach Ay a lesson. There's also the fact that Ay wasn't even going all out against Bee (and only did so against Naruto at the very end), which makes sense. He would obviously hold back against his brother, and has no reason to go at him with killer intent or anything of the sort. So him likely holding back throws even more wrenches into this IMO.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
This could backscale to Kisame as well but probably not to Taka Sasuke since Kisame fought Killer Bee around the time of the five kage summit, which is very close to the start of the war chronologically.

It would make sense considering a weakened Kisame (Chapter 506, page 2 and 3) was able to take a full speed punch from KCM Naruto (Chapter 505, page 11 and 12) who hadn't even learnt to hold back yet.
Click to expand...
I definitely disagree with Kisame having Bijuu level physicals in base. Mainly for the reasons I laid out in my previous point. He's pretty objectively not on V2 Bee's level, so him having Bijuu lvl dura just doesn't add up.
As for this particular feat with KCM Nard, I personally don't even think it's that great. He was within Samehada, which is currently accepted to have 6-C dura, and the dude still got wrecked and coughed up blood. He wasn't subjected to the punch's full power due to Samehada acting as a protective layer, and still took serious damage.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
And Naruto was about to go KCM against a weakened Kisame (Chapter 508) as seen here and here. When he clasps his hands, this usually means he's going to use KCM.
Click to expand...
This is fine, but all it really proves is that Kisame's stronger than base Naruto, which is okay I guess. But I'm not really sure it means that Kisame's as strong as KCM or anything like that. KCM's just the most readily available power-up at Naruto's disposal, so it makes sense that he'd enter it against a powerful enemy like Kisame. It's not like Naruto didn't use KCM against weaker characters later, so IMO it just doesn't mean much on its own.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
So before I get into the nitty girtty of everything, I just want to point out that Kisame's already 6-C with Water Style, so I'm fine with him being on that level and stuff.
Oh, and I'm really sorry for the late response. I've been a bit swamped IRL.
Click to expand...
Now I'm gonna have to apologise for my late response, lmao
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I kind of see the logic here, and I do agree that Kisame is both a stronger fighter and better Suiton user than Suigetsu. However, I'm not entirely sure that this in and of itself proves that Kisame can outdo this super specific technique that's only usable when certain environmental conditions are met. We don't even know if Kisame knows about this ability, so I feel like we can't say for certain that he had it in mind when he was berating Suigetsu and co. Even if he did, it's not like Suigetsu could've used it. And that's ignoring that a Suiton user as skilled as Kisame could probably neg the technique by manipulating the water anyway.

I guess in the end, I'm not wholly opposed to adding this stuff as support for the pre-existing 6-C scaling for Kisame's Suiton, but I just don't think it's all that strong on its own, personally.
Click to expand...
I don't think Suigetsu's technique should be seen as super specific, he can do it in any place with large amounts of water, like a lake. Originally, water release was something characters couldn't do except with a water source.

And even later on, most characters can only create small amounts of water compared to characters like Mei, Tobirama, or Kisame, including Suigetsu.

I think Kisame should be aware of this technique, or something similar since it seems to be a staple of the Hozuki clan which is one of the major clans of the Hidden Mist. Gengetsu Hozuki was a Kage in the past.

I think it would be quite reasonable to not only Kisame, but also Mei and Tobirama superior to Tate Eboshi in terms of water release.

Something to supplement this, but Tobi does say that Kisame's affinity to water would be useful against Isobu. Though Tobi is a troll, this isn't necessarily a lie or anything.
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Pretty sure this is already on the profile, but if you want to improve or expand upon the justification in some way, that's fine with me.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd like
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Ehhh, it was just some gas at the end of the day, but it doesn't matter tbh. Like, we already have 6th Gate Guy at 6-C physically, so obviously his Asakujaku is up there as well. Tbh I still believe Saiken was knocked down in that instance, but that was rejected and I don't feel like arguing against it rn, so whatever.
Click to expand...
Fair
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I have a couple of issues with this. It just doesn't......really work. It ends up resulting in circular scaling because the 6-C value (4.3 Gigatons) literally comes from Gyuki taking his Bijuudama in the first place. And we know from prior fights that B's V1, V2, and Bijuu Mode are pretty substantial amps to his power in base. We see this in the fight against Sasuke, where Bee clearly grows substantially in terms of strength and speed. He goes from being slightly stronger than Sasuke, but not to the point of Sasuke not being able to keep up at all, to just damn near one-shotting him with V1. We also see it with V2 where Bee demolished Kisame even though he was using Samehada as a shield, which is worthy of note because we know they're relative base-to-base. Same thing with Bijuu Mode, as he was generally around the Edo Jinchuriki's level in base, but then knocked them out in Bijuu Mode by simply spinning around. I think the Tailed Beast forms being amps is something we can all agree on, it's just common sense, but I just wanted to prove that it's definitely a thing in Bee's case. So him scaling to his full power in base is just going to be textbook circular scaling. We'd end up with: Bijuu Mode Bee (4.3 Gigatons) >~ V2 (Bijuu's power in humanoid form) > V1 > Base Bee > Ay > Bijuu Mode Bee

But maybe Bee just got stronger during the War Arc, no? Well, that's all well and good, but the problem is that the 4.3 Gigatons value literally comes from WA Bijuu Mode Bee, so that just doesn't work unless we say that his base is equal to his BM, which just makes no sense.

"But what about the Ay feat? We can't just ignore feats."
Not putting words in your mouth btw lol, this is more so me playing devil's advocate.
We can and do ignore feats when they cause big issues and inconsistencies that we simply cannot reconcile with the overall scaling. That's why we have Outliers and PIS as part of our standards. It always sucks when these terms are pulled out, because it feels like a copout, but they are there for a reason. Stories just aren't always perfectly consistent, unfortunately.
Personally, I think this moment is just classic PIS. It's just a moment that only exists to teach Ay a lesson. There's also the fact that Ay wasn't even going all out against Bee (and only did so against Naruto at the very end), which makes sense. He would obviously hold back against his brother, and has no reason to go at him with killer intent or anything of the sort. So him likely holding back throws even more wrenches into this IMO.
Click to expand...
I don't really want to get too deep into this though I'm sure this will be a debate at some point in the future
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I definitely disagree with Kisame having Bijuu level physicals in base. Mainly for the reasons I laid out in my previous point. He's pretty objectively not on V2 Bee's level, so him having Bijuu lvl dura just doesn't add up.
As for this particular feat with KCM Nard, I personally don't even think it's that great. He was within Samehada, which is currently accepted to have 6-C dura, and the dude still got wrecked and coughed up blood. He wasn't subjected to the punch's full power due to Samehada acting as a protective layer, and still took serious damage.
Click to expand...
That's fair for Base Kisame

I think he should have Biju level physicals whilst Fused though, and I think we can agree that his fusion state proper would be more durable than his fusion state when taking Naruto's punch
UchihaSlayer96 said:
This is fine, but all it really proves is that Kisame's stronger than base Naruto, which is okay I guess. But I'm not really sure it means that Kisame's as strong as KCM or anything like that. KCM's just the most readily available power-up at Naruto's disposal, so it makes sense that he'd enter it against a powerful enemy like Kisame. It's not like Naruto didn't use KCM against weaker characters later, so IMO it just doesn't mean much on its own.
Click to expand...
Fair enough

Overall though, seems like Kisame having 6-C ninjutsu and with Samehada is already accepted, and I'd just want to tidy his page a bit and add some justifications
 
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UchihaSlayer96 said:
I'm a bit confused by this bit. How does Daikodan being one of Kisame's strongest techniques make it inherently stronger than Tate Eboshi? What makes you reach that conclusion? Also, low-key, he kinda attributes its "power" to the fact that it'll simply get stronger depending on how strong the opponent's attack is, since it absorbs chakra from whatever attack it comes into contact with.
Click to expand...
Because Kisame is a superior water style user than Suigetsu, and just generally narratively superior, so I can definitely see Daikodan tussling with some Tailed Beasts, pushing them back a bit and so on
 
Damage3245 said:
He doesn't actually mention Kisame's Water Release there. He just says that Kisame would be good against a water-type enemy which makes sense considering Kisame's swimming skills / underwater combat.
Click to expand...
It doesn't mention Kisame's water release specifically, but at the same time he says Kisame would be better at dealing with Isobu, which doesn't make sense if we're saying Kisame's water release would be irrelevant to Isobu so I'm more so inferring Kisame's water release would actually be able to do something to a Biju
 
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
It doesn't mention Kisame's water release specifically, but at the same time he says Kisame would be better at dealing with Isobu, which doesn't make sense if we're saying Kisame's water release would be irrelevant to Isobu so I'm more so inferring Kisame's water release would actually be able to do something to a Biju
Click to expand...
It could be something to do with him being the one who can breathe underwater
 
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Now I'm gonna have to apologise for my late response, lmao
Click to expand...
It's alright lmao, no worries.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
I don't think Suigetsu's technique should be seen as super specific, he can do it in any place with large amounts of water, like a lake. Originally, water release was something characters couldn't do except with a water source.

And even later on, most characters can only create small amounts of water compared to characters like Mei, Tobirama, or Kisame, including Suigetsu.

I think Kisame should be aware of this technique, or something similar since it seems to be a staple of the Hozuki clan which is one of the major clans of the Hidden Mist. Gengetsu Hozuki was a Kage in the past.

I think it would be quite reasonable to not only Kisame, but also Mei and Tobirama superior to Tate Eboshi in terms of water release.

Something to supplement this, but Tobi does say that Kisame's affinity to water would be useful against Isobu. Though Tobi is a troll, this isn't necessarily a lie or anything.
Click to expand...
Look, man, I personally believe Kisame's the best Water Release user in the series, so you're kinda preaching to the choir here.
The only thing is just that to do scaling between characters and their techniques, we usually need at least semi-strong proof.
Like I said, I do believe that Kisame's a superior Suiton user to Suigetsu; but for instance, if Kisame had zero other Bijuu lvl implications outside of the Tate Eboshi connection you're trying to make, I'm not too sure it would've been enough on its own to give him a 6-C rating.
However, as a minor piece of support, I can see it working depending on how you word the justification.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd like
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's fine with me. Write out the justification you have in mind, and we can evaluate it properly then.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Fair

I don't really want to get too deep into this though I'm sure this will be a debate at some point in the future
Click to expand...
Sure.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
That's fair for Base Kisame
Click to expand...
Coolio.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
I think he should have Biju level physicals whilst Fused though, and I think we can agree that his fusion state proper would be more durable than his fusion state when taking Naruto's punch
Click to expand...
It definitely would be, since he had stolen a massive amount of Bee's chakra when he underwent the fusion, but yeah this is already on the profile technically.
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
Fair enough

Overall though, seems like Kisame having 6-C ninjutsu and with Samehada is already accepted, and I'd just want to tidy his page a bit and add some justifications
Click to expand...
Sure, that's fine with me. Write out the justification you want to get implemented, and then we can talk about it. But tentatively speaking, I'm mostly fine with everything you said for Kisame since a lot of it's already accepted lol.
 
I suppose you're referring to the "Easy for you to say, since you don't know him" and "You probably can't understand my pain...not having battled the fellow directly." But that's really too vague to say it means Roshi would be a challenge for Itachi, it could easily just be Kisame being salty
 
MinatoSparkle said:
I suppose you're referring to the "Easy for you to say, since you don't know him" and "You probably can't understand my pain...not having battled the fellow directly." But that's really too vague to say it means Roshi would be a challenge for Itachi, it could easily just be Kisame being salty
Click to expand...
Not sure how it's too vague, seems pretty clear he's implying that Roshi would cause Itachi similar pain he caused Kisame if they had fought

You can say Kisame's wrong cause he's being salty but at the same time he is implying Itachi would struggle with Roshi
 
EmperorRorepmeThree said:
Not sure how it's too vague, seems pretty clear he's implying that Roshi would cause Itachi similar pain he caused Kisame if they had fought

You can say Kisame's wrong cause he's being salty but at the same time he is implying Itachi would struggle with Roshi
Click to expand...
If Itachi battled Roshi, he'd be able to understand Kisame's pain even if he hadn't struggled particularly, as he could tell how strong Roshi was in comparison to Kisame.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
If Itachi battled Roshi, he'd be able to understand Kisame's pain even if he hadn't struggled particularly, as he could tell how strong Roshi was in comparison to Kisame.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty odd reading since Kisame isn't implying anywhere that Itachi is somehow above experiencing struggle with Roshi's Lava Release, he's saying that Roshi's Lava Release is serious shit that isn't a laughing matter in a general manner which encompasses Itachi and that Itachi would understand the struggle with it by battling Roshi directly, not that he'd see Kisame struggling with it
 
EmperorRorepmeThree said:
Itachi is saying that Kisame shouldn't be treating Roshi roughly, and Kisame says he'd understand if he'd battled Roshi and Son Goku's Lava Release directly
Click to expand...
Yes, which can easily be referring to him understanding why KISAME would feel that way. Itachi is always portrayed as Kisame's superior, he shouldn't have trouble with someone that couldn't even damage Kisame's cloak.
 
MinatoSparkle said:
Yes, which can easily be referring to him understanding why KISAME would feel that way. Itachi is always portrayed as Kisame's superior, he shouldn't have trouble with someone that couldn't even damage Kisame's cloak.
Click to expand...
There's basically nothing in that scene supporting this intepretation. Kisame says that Roshi's Lava Style is nothing to laugh about, difficult to deal with, he doesn't exclude Itachi from this general statement and there's no implication he's excluding Itachi.

Since Kisame vs Roshi was off screen and this scene is some time after that fight, we basically can't infer how much damage Kisame took. And Itachi being Kisame's superior (only really portrayed that way in Part 1, not that I'm saying Itachi isn't stronger) doesn't mean he wouldn't have some difficulties with Roshi.
 
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