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Simply that SM Naruto is stronger than any other inherited form at that point, like for example SM Nard > CM2 Sus
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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
MinatoSparkle
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That doesn't make SM a stronger form, it makes Naruto a stronger character
MinatoSparkle
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Yeah but the focus is still on the form itself. It's just talking about Naruto because he has perfect SM, which is obviously a stronger version than Jiraiya's.
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Sure. You'll find the relevant info here and here.
To add to your points, I don't even think the proposed equivalence even makes sense in the first place. Naruto "inherited" Sage Mode from Jiraiya thematically, not literally. He was simply inheriting his mentor's WILL and following in his footsteps by learning Sage Mode from the same teachers, in the same location, using similar methods, in order to defeat the same enemy and eventually complete Jiraiya's thesis on how to reach world peace. Hell, their level of mastery over Sage Mode could arguably be looked at as a symbol for how Naruto is the perfect vessel to inherit his mission and actually see it through successfully. It's all very beautiful and thematically rich.
This is not similar in ANY CAPACITY to Orochimaru's situation with the Curse Mark. It's not some power that they inherit from Oro through some teacher/student dynamic, it's a power that he bestows upon a select few through a specific procedure while he's still around, and all while not even using the Sage Transformation himself in the first place. Oro doesn't even use CS2 himself.
So my point is that they're just VERY different cases, and equating them doesn't make sense. And of course, they're also mechanically very different and can't be equated as I've explained in the links above. It just doesn't work fellas, give it up please.
MinatoSparkle
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Yes they're very different, but they are both still inherited in the end. Besides, the word strongest being used would imply there are other inherited forms to compare it to, and as far as I'm aware, there isn't another example up to the FKS arc of someone inheriting their master's will and training for a power up similar to theirs.
Also I just checked the raws again and it might actually be saying "The strongest form inherited" rather than "The strongest inherited form," which means that Sage Mode was just the strongest form in general (I put it through 4 different machines and they all said the same thing).
受け継がれた最強形態!!!
Still don't really agree with chakra amps being a linear thing. KCM2 Naruto is much stronger than 50% Kurama given the SM Naruto fight, BM Bee shows KCM Naruto level feats while Gyuki~3A who was beaten by a clone with 1/14th of Naruto's chakra and is reputed below Hiruzen, 50% Kurama is dozens of times smaller and thus probably weaker than 100% Kurama, already talked about KCM Minato, Fused Momoshiki shows feats significantly greater than what should be less than a 2x boost (goes from being lowkey bullied by the Kage to blitzing and one shotting them and tanking a Sasuke sword slash straight to the neck), etc. Also if Orochimaru really just imparted everyone with a Curse Mark 10x their level at the point they got it, it shouldn't still be 10x well after cause that'd mean they have to remain the exact same strength, and especially with Sasuke considering CM2 Sasuke is soooooooo much more than 10x FoD Sasuke.
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The Uchiha simp came back just to go insane because of the minato simp, dude is punching air rn.
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With Biju Scaling, Base Naruto would be no weaker than Suigetsu and Juugo who could be 6-C through their feats and scaling from V1 Ay (Again, this hasn’t been discussed or debated yet). Sage Mode Multiplier stacked ontop would then justify SM Naruto's Feats against Kurama on Turtle Island.
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Also, I said this multiple times in the past but people didn’t really understand me, but SPSM isn’t an AP Amp due to Naruto already being amped by Six Paths Chakra in Base. Base Naruto scales to Sasuke Physically in Strength & Durability and can react to him. This is Showcased in VoTE 2 and we’ve already seen Sasuke tank direct hits from RinneSharingan Madara’s Limbo Clones with little to no damage. We’re not even discussing Boruto Era yet, which doubles down on this.
The only Benefit Naruto gets from SPSM is the Sensory Abilities which helps his Speed and Flight and Cloaked SPSM isn’t a “significant” boost either. Naruto already had half of Hagoromo’s Chakra, which all the Biju are FAR Inferior to and we already know All Biju Chakra Combined leads to Six Paths Chakra.
From my PoV, if Base Naruto and Sasuke with half of Hagoromo’s Chakra each is 3/4 a cup, Cloaked SPSM Naruto (Due to having Fragments of all Biju Chakra) is a full cup, which again, is not significant. The only “major” stat that is improved is Speed, and that’s because Naruto’s Inherent speed is amped when using it even “Before” he uses Shunshin (Its like, “Double Shunshin” if that makes sense
)
And that speaks to the dynamic Naruto and Sasuke ALWAYS had. Both were always made to be comparable in Strength & Durability but Sasuke was always faster than Naruto Overall but Naruto had the Reaction speed to keep up to a degree without Amps. Before the Six Paths Amps, Base Naruto was shown Comparable to Sasuke in the War Arc with Sasuke only showing to be ahead in Speed when keeping up with KCM 1.
The only Benefit Naruto gets from SPSM is the Sensory Abilities which helps his Speed and Flight and Cloaked SPSM isn’t a “significant” boost either. Naruto already had half of Hagoromo’s Chakra, which all the Biju are FAR Inferior to and we already know All Biju Chakra Combined leads to Six Paths Chakra.
From my PoV, if Base Naruto and Sasuke with half of Hagoromo’s Chakra each is 3/4 a cup, Cloaked SPSM Naruto (Due to having Fragments of all Biju Chakra) is a full cup, which again, is not significant. The only “major” stat that is improved is Speed, and that’s because Naruto’s Inherent speed is amped when using it even “Before” he uses Shunshin (Its like, “Double Shunshin” if that makes sense
) And that speaks to the dynamic Naruto and Sasuke ALWAYS had. Both were always made to be comparable in Strength & Durability but Sasuke was always faster than Naruto Overall but Naruto had the Reaction speed to keep up to a degree without Amps. Before the Six Paths Amps, Base Naruto was shown Comparable to Sasuke in the War Arc with Sasuke only showing to be ahead in Speed when keeping up with KCM 1.
MinatoSparkle
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Base Naruto (Post SM Training) was able to match Blood Lusted Kage Summit Sasuke whom was physically able to tank Kakashi’s strikes and shown being stronger than Suigetsu and Juugo against Killer B. Kishimoto not only implies both are roughly comparable at that point but also they both equally tanked the explosion of Rasengan/Chidori Clash, which (even though its already obvious) thanks to VoTE 2, proves both are equally damaged by the Clash’s Explosion.
It’s really the best line of scaling Naruto has in the series before meeting Hagoromo because Pain is implied to be not at 100% and holding back (Obviously) and too many inferences have to made for BoShippuden Naruto whom is damn there featless in Base.
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Funny thing about this is, if his Chakra wasn’t being stolen, Kurama would’ve gotten up from 2 FRS and a CORB with only “slight” injuries.
MinatoSparkle
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Suigetsu and Jugo could've gotten stronger since their fight against Bee. Base Naruto really can't scale to V1 Ay considering he scales to KCM Naruto.
What are you talking about?
Still, the fact that he got tagged at all, even if with strategy, is not something that would happen to KCM2 Naruto.Funny thing about this is, if his Chakra wasn’t being stolen, Kurama would’ve gotten up from 2 FRS and a CORB with only “slight” injuries.
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1.) Nothing Indicates Taka got stronger between the KB fight and Kage Summit other than Sasuke, who is implied to have done training with MS. Any assertion outside of that is baseless. Everyone had to heal after the KB fight, Suigetsu primarily as his body was completely messed up and he was in a tank.
2.) Base Naruto Scales to KS Sasuke (Not his MS Abilities which use Special Chakra, not his normal Chakra). Sasuke w/o MS could “barely” harm Ay through his Cloak and was Dead to rights w/o Susanoo and Amaterasu. Suigetsu was able to physically block V1 Ay’s Attack MOMENTARILY (High Diff) until his sword snapped and he suffered a unabaited Blow that “would’ve” ripped his arms off. Juugo was able to Block V1 At’s Strike (Again, High Diff) but only suffered a Mortal Injury with pressure being continuously applied and being overpowered from that. With KCM Naruto, while he did exclaim in pain a few times, V1 Ay did no substantial Damage to Naruto, and that’s w/o the Healing Factor. So no, Base Naruto wouldn’t scale to him in Totality. Suigetsu and Juugo don’t even scale to him in totality. Neither does Sasuke w/o MS Abilities. Depends on how you want to take these feats but no, they are not contradicted in the series.
3.) Except SM has Faster Reaction Speed than KCM 2 (Here) and is Stated have Faster Movement Speed than KCM 1 (Here), so actually Kurama tagging SM Naruto is more impressive than if he tagged KCM 1.
MinatoSparkle
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Them scaling to someone that strong is enough considering they were Sub-Mountain level before as they were slammed by Base Bee.
More precisely, Base Naruto scales to Base Sasuke, not just FKS Sasuke w/o MS abilities. So he doesn't scale to 3T or MS Sasuke in physicals. And Base Sasuke doesn't scale at all to V1 Ay considering he needed a 3T AND Chidori amp against him. Also I don't really think Ay was fully trying against Jugo and Suigetsu. At the end of 461, Ay's eyes went bloodshot and he seemed to power up cause Jugo was shocked at his speed. Then he powered up even more after Sasuke landed a Chidori as his chakra spiked right before he did Liger Bomb as implied by Karin. So really Ay wasn't going all out when Team Taka was doing alright against him.
Idt that's a solid enough implication since KCM2 can't sense the Juubi as it has no emotions and there was dust so he couldn't see him. And that's a mistranslation, raws actually say faster sensing or reaction speed.
仙人モードの蛙組手 …こっちの方が危険感知は広いし早い!
Really makes no sense for SM to physically be faster than KCM when that form's specifically hyped for its speed, even by characters who have seen SM like Tsunade.
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1.) Suigetsu & Juugo were arbitrarily put at that level with no legitimate reasoning for them. From Introduction, their only fights (In order) were: Themselves > Killer B > Ay. They can’t scale from themselves. Base Killer B scaled from them until he fought Ay & Kisame. Kisame was more than 3x Stronger than Base Guy as Pain’s a Clone of them are 30% of their actual selves and strength is LITERALLY stated to be proportional to the Chakra Allocated to them in the databook. And Killer B’s Feats against Ay informs us to tge degree to which he is stronger than them and Kisame scales from KB as he matches Unamped KB’s strikes. So no, their feats against Ay doesn’t imply they “magically got stronger” with no indication of that.Them scaling to someone that strong is enough considering they were Sub-Mountain level before as they were slammed by Base Bee.
More precisely, Base Naruto scales to Base Sasuke, not just FKS Sasuke w/o MS abilities. So he doesn't scale to 3T or MS Sasuke in physicals. And Base Sasuke doesn't scale at all to V1 Ay considering he needed a 3T AND Chidori amp against him. Also I don't really think Ay was fully trying against Jugo and Suigetsu. At the end of 461, Ay's eyes went bloodshot and he seemed to power up cause Jugo was shocked at his speed. Then he powered up even more after Sasuke landed a Chidori as his chakra spiked right before he did Liger Bomb as implied by Karin. So really Ay wasn't going all out when Team Taka was doing alright against him.
Idt that's a solid enough implication since KCM2 can't sense the Juubi as it has no emotions and there was dust so he couldn't see him. And that's a mistranslation, raws actually say faster sensing or reaction speed.
SM has greater reactions than KCM, not greater combat speed
仙人モードの蛙組手 …こっちの方が危険感知は広いし早い!
Really makes no sense for SM to physically be faster than KCM when that form's specifically hyped for its speed, even by characters who have seen SM like Tsunade.
2.) Ay was bloodlusted against Akatsuki. He Killed Zetsu with 0 Quams or hesitations about it and attack Sasuke and with 0 Reservations about his well being. Trying to imply Ay was holding back against them when he was provably already indifferent to them living or dying is a no go. That’s a baseless Assumptions taking in the entire situation. Also, Sharingan doesn’t provide a physical amp nor does it amp their Chakra. The only amp Sharingan gives is Perception / Reaction Speed. 3T particularly because of the Pre-Cog the 1T & 2T don’t offer. Like it’s a seriously baseless claim. Even if you want to wank the VoTE 1 fight, understand Kn0 Naruto’s best feat isn’t “as” impressive as you may think it is. Base Naruto tanked a slam on the leg from the same kind of snake during the Tsunade Search and was walking Normally after that still. Kn0 really after the CE arc wasn’t portrayed as a “Massive” Amp going forward, again, Based on Feats like what happened in SFT Arc. Not only that but it is inconsistent with literally every other Sharingan fight and depiction in the series if you guys are using 3T Sasuke vs Kn0 Naruto to justify that argument. Sasuke was already strong enough to not be one shot by Kn0, and so was Base Naruto. Literally the only benefit 3T gave Sasuke was the Pre-Cog and Kishimoto tells you this here. It wasn’t his strength, it wasn’t even focused on or implied to be the case. Even after Naruto got Hit, the focus was on Sasuke knowing his movements, not physical capabilities being amped. This just proves Kn0 wasn’t as strong as the previous scaling suggested and now you guys are making baseless claims to justify it. Base Naruto Scales to Sasuke w/o MS Abilities. Sharingan doesn’t amp physical stats, neither does MS.
3.) KCM still has Negativity Sensing Pre-Cog, which doesn’t rely on Chakra Sensing and Naruto still considers it better than At Least what KCM 1 has going off your correct scan and KCM 2 still wasn’t able to react to it and was caught unaware. Not only that, he couldn’t even react to Madara and Obito’s intent while controlling Juubi and they weren’t hiding their chakra if you are going to make the argument Chakra still has to be sensed for it. What even is the argument here for you? SM shouldn’t have perfomed as well as it did against Kurama? The fact that it did proves your argument false. Author’s Intent >…
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The point is of me mentioning it is the snakes were the same and attacking with Killing Intent. Base Naruto as of SFT Arc can react and dodge its lunges, tank it chomping down on him and tanks it slamming on his ankle with a minor Injury all things considered. Then after a bit off screen, Naruto is laid out but the snake is gone. I’m not saying Naruto scales to Kn0 100% but the Snake didn’t destroy him either like FoD.
MinatoSparkle
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No Kisame didn't scale from them, he scales off 3T Taka Sasuke who downscales from 3T Hebi Sasuke, who is more than a CM2 amp below 3T FKS Sasuke.
Not a baseless assumption when I've given reasons on why that is. Jugo wouldn't suddenly be shocked at his speed midway through the battle when he's been seeing it this whole time unless he got faster.
The Sharingan definitely does provide an amp. Have you seen the CRT about it? If so and you still disagree, I'm just gonna leave this here cause I'm too lazy to go into detail on the topic rn https://www.quora.com/Does-Dojutsu-...s-specifically-combat-speed/answer/Alan-Jia-1
About the KM0 Naruto thing, it most definitely was a huge amp. Naruto went from the losing end to absolutely clapping Sasuke around, and it's stated to be the highest level of strength he'd ever achieved, meaning it was greater than when he fought Haku and surpassed Kakashi, or when he got a mental amp and reacted to, physically restrained, and critically injured Kabuto who's Kakashi's rival.
And Base Kid Naruto was certainly nowhere near Kakashi, considering it wasn't until years later in the Akatsuki Suppression Arc that Naruto surpassed Kakashi.
????? That's the very ability I'm referring to. Sage Mode is what senses chakra, KCM just senses intent, and Kurama specifically said Naruto couldn't sense the Juubi in KCM2.
I don't think sensing intent equals knowing exactly what someone is mentally commanding someone else to do.
My argument is that KCM2 Naruto is more than Base Naruto+50% Kurama, which is implied earlier in the series.
Probably was capping on the intelligence bit, but he had to get the idea that Jinchuriki>Bijuu from somewhere.
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* Begins penning concession letter *No Kisame didn't scale from them, he scales off 3T Taka Sasuke who downscales from 3T Hebi Sasuke, who is more than a CM2 amp below 3T FKS Sasuke.
Not a baseless assumption when I've given reasons on why that is. Jugo wouldn't suddenly be shocked at his speed midway through the battle when he's been seeing it this whole time unless he got faster.
The Sharingan definitely does provide an amp. Have you seen the CRT about it? If so and you still disagree, I'm just gonna leave this here cause I'm too lazy to go into detail on the topic rn https://www.quora.com/Does-Dojutsu-...s-specifically-combat-speed/answer/Alan-Jia-1
About the KM0 Naruto thing, it most definitely was a huge amp. Naruto went from the losing end to absolutely clapping Sasuke around, and it's stated to be the highest level of strength he'd ever achieved, meaning it was greater than when he fought Haku and surpassed Kakashi, or when he got a mental amp and reacted to, physically restrained, and critically injured Kabuto who's Kakashi's rival.
And Base Kid Naruto was certainly nowhere near Kakashi, considering it wasn't until years later in the Akatsuki Suppression Arc that Naruto surpassed Kakashi.
????? That's the very ability I'm referring to. Sage Mode is what senses chakra, KCM just senses intent, and Kurama specifically said Naruto couldn't sense the Juubi in KCM2.
I don't think sensing intent equals knowing exactly what someone is mentally commanding someone else to do.
My argument is that KCM2 Naruto is more than Base Naruto+50% Kurama, which is implied earlier in the series.
Probably was capping on the intelligence bit, but he had to get the idea that Jinchuriki>Bijuu from somewhere.
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Speaking of the jubi would it be able to resist eidas charm?
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I would say no as its still capable of emotions such as anger, etc.
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i think theres an interesting discussion about if the ten tails jin could resist solely because having a ten tails inside you is a pretty big link to the Otsutsuki. not enough to argue on a profile for anything but a fun discussion.
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Ahhhh, happier times.
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I don’t think the Danger Sensing Aspect is tied to Chakra Sensing aspect but while it may be a limitation of the Sharingan, wouldn't that only be “In-Verse”?
It would be similar to the “Soul Manipulation” or “Mind Manipulation” debate if that makes sense?
MinatoSparkle
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Let's see how many months this one takes
BlastX
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Rasengan Barrage and Planetary Rasengan is used by Naruto in these Arcs.
Pain Arc (Barrage)
WA (Planetary)
The Last (Both)
Isshiki Arc (Barrage, but it got shrunk by Isshiki before it hits.)
Scaling chain:
Rasengan <(2x) Rasengan Barrage < Planetary Rasengan (is considered an enhanced version of Rasengan Barrage) < Rasenshuriken (Naruto's strongest technique in Pain and early-mid War Arc)
Note: Planetary Rasengan is only usable with KCM
Note 2: If you consider Kurama Avatar to be stronger than Rasengan Barrage then it will scale above 2x base Naruto as well.
So we can conclude that any variant of Naruto after Pain Arc can use both of these techniques, it's just rarely used in Boruto due to ninjutsu absorption.
@GokuSparkle already made the proposed changes for Pain Arc till Pre-Hagoromo Naruto in the thread. So I'll try to make some changes for the later arcs.
The Last
BSM Naruto is L5-B+ here, so applying a simple 2x multiplier for Rasengan Barrage would grant him 5-B.
Boruto Era
SPSM KCM Naruto is rated 312.8 ZT here. Applying the 2x multiplier, he'll get 625.6 ZT with Rasengan Barrage, Planetary Rasengan, or Rasenshuriken. Base Naruto is 156.4 ZT, 312,8 ZT with Rasengan Barrage and Rasenshuriken.
Pain Arc (Barrage)
WA (Planetary)
The Last (Both)
Isshiki Arc (Barrage, but it got shrunk by Isshiki before it hits.)
Scaling chain:
Rasengan <(2x) Rasengan Barrage < Planetary Rasengan (is considered an enhanced version of Rasengan Barrage) < Rasenshuriken (Naruto's strongest technique in Pain and early-mid War Arc)
Note: Planetary Rasengan is only usable with KCM
Note 2: If you consider Kurama Avatar to be stronger than Rasengan Barrage then it will scale above 2x base Naruto as well.
So we can conclude that any variant of Naruto after Pain Arc can use both of these techniques, it's just rarely used in Boruto due to ninjutsu absorption.
@GokuSparkle already made the proposed changes for Pain Arc till Pre-Hagoromo Naruto in the thread. So I'll try to make some changes for the later arcs.
The Last
BSM Naruto is L5-B+ here, so applying a simple 2x multiplier for Rasengan Barrage would grant him 5-B.
Unknown (Far stronger than his previous Base Form, but to what extent is unknown due to him regularly borrowing power from his other forms), Small Planet level+, possibly Planet level with Kurama Sage Mode (Fought and damaged Tenseigan Chakra Mode Toneri), Planet level with Rasengan Barrage, Planetary Rasengan, or Rasenshuriken (Rasengan Barrage increases the Rasengan's power more than twice. The Rasenshuriken is exponentially stronger than the Rasengan) higher with Kurama Avatar (The Kurama Avatar greatly increases Naruto's Attack Power)
Boruto Era
SPSM KCM Naruto is rated 312.8 ZT here. Applying the 2x multiplier, he'll get 625.6 ZT with Rasengan Barrage, Planetary Rasengan, or Rasenshuriken. Base Naruto is 156.4 ZT, 312,8 ZT with Rasengan Barrage and Rasenshuriken.
Planet level (While weakened to half power, he fought against Fused Momoshiki), higher with Rasengan Barrage and Rasenshuriken (Rasengan Barrage increases the Rasengan's power more than twice. The Rasenshuriken is exponentially stronger than the Rasengan) even higher with Six Paths Sage Mode (Overwhelmed Fused Momoshiki while fighting alongside Sasuke Uchiha), far higher with Rasengan Barrage, Planetary Rasengan, Rasenshuriken or Kurama Avatar (The Kurama Avatar greatly increases Naruto's attack potency), even higher with Majestic Attire Susano'o (Easily overpowered Fused Momoshiki's Lava Golem, combined powers with Sasuke's Susano'o)
Testarossa002
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Totally harmless question (I hope)
Do we consider Boruto anime post Bayron Mode to be canon?
Like we did to the previous episodes?
Do we consider Boruto anime post Bayron Mode to be canon?
Like we did to the previous episodes?
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https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-bestest-crt-for-the-bestest-dino-in-existence.153961/
Any mods want to get in on this or can I just apply it since it's not a 1C rank character?
Any mods want to get in on this or can I just apply it since it's not a 1C rank character?
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i think so
