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Remember how we downgraded Naruto to 7-C a while back? Surprise, they’re going right back to 7-B now!
We finally have a new calc for Kirin, we have a new version of Sasuke’s Katon calc, and some scaling changes to go with them. And before anyone asks, Sasuke’s Katon scaling to Kirin was already accepted in this thread.
With those out of the way, let’s get into the scaling.
Here’s a sandbox that shows the characters with notably revised scaling, everyone else keeps their current justification with the tiers changed, and here’s a sandbox that shows that every character is scaling to.
In summary;
We finally have a new calc for Kirin, we have a new version of Sasuke’s Katon calc, and some scaling changes to go with them. And before anyone asks, Sasuke’s Katon scaling to Kirin was already accepted in this thread.
The manga says this (Chapter 260) and the databook says this (Sha no Sho, Page 268). I've checked translations and they're both consistent with the raws, I.E., those aren't mistranslations.
The proportional statement that it says doesn't say it's proportional to the owner of the jutsu's chakra amount, because the person who's doing the jutsu is Nagato. He's using the chakra of others in order to do it.
With the manga statement above (Chapter 260), we know there's slight contradictions in the manga. We know Kisame's 30% ≠ Itachi's 30%. Kisame is stated to have the most chakra in the Akatsuki (Chapter 255), making his 30% ≠ Itachi's 30%.
Kakashi confirms that Itachi's fireball seems the exact same as it's supposed to, consistent with the databook supporting it, with these (Chapter 260) scans (Sha no Sho, Page 268).
The overarching point is that their potency isn't affected. But what is? Their stamina.
Itachi uses large amounts of chakra for his Mangekyo, his copy had only 30%, inhibiting him from using his Mangekyo. Or rather, from using Tsukuyomi.
Pain also says this about Kisame (Chapter 255), that Kisame would be best suited for the jutsu. If this was just axing technique strength, there would be no reason for someone who is known to be a stamina beast is "best suited" for it. My hypothesis is that Kisame would be able to be on the field longer. Chakra reserves would not be an issue if everyone was just getting their strength reduced to 30%, but Kisame's reserves are something to be noticed.
This is why the databook says that when their chakra runs out, the copy dies. (Sha no Sho, Page 268) Kisame, the member with the most chakra, being copied and him being the best suited for a technique that falters when the clone runs out of chakra, makes more sense.
Kakashi has also witnessed the physical strength of Itachi while he was fighting Kurenai, and he never mentioned his physicals being inferior, or even his speed.
TL;DR: Kakashi says that Itachi's ninjutsu is the same, but Itachi is shown to not be able to use higher level ninjutsu. Kisame, known for his large reserves, is stated to be the best for a technique that depends on the amount of chakra in a person. Strength comes in different forms, and showing that the strength of Itachi's ninjutsu is exactly the same and nobody comments on the physicals of Kisame or Itachi (Kisame, who Guy fought in Part 1. Nobody physically fought Itachi back then except Kurenai, but Kakashi did witness it), it probably refers to his chakra usage. The jutsu doesn't nerf strength (as in physicals or Ninjutsu), but it nerfs stamina.
Credit to @KingTempest for the above explanation.
The proportional statement that it says doesn't say it's proportional to the owner of the jutsu's chakra amount, because the person who's doing the jutsu is Nagato. He's using the chakra of others in order to do it.
With the manga statement above (Chapter 260), we know there's slight contradictions in the manga. We know Kisame's 30% ≠ Itachi's 30%. Kisame is stated to have the most chakra in the Akatsuki (Chapter 255), making his 30% ≠ Itachi's 30%.
Kakashi confirms that Itachi's fireball seems the exact same as it's supposed to, consistent with the databook supporting it, with these (Chapter 260) scans (Sha no Sho, Page 268).
The overarching point is that their potency isn't affected. But what is? Their stamina.
Itachi uses large amounts of chakra for his Mangekyo, his copy had only 30%, inhibiting him from using his Mangekyo. Or rather, from using Tsukuyomi.
Pain also says this about Kisame (Chapter 255), that Kisame would be best suited for the jutsu. If this was just axing technique strength, there would be no reason for someone who is known to be a stamina beast is "best suited" for it. My hypothesis is that Kisame would be able to be on the field longer. Chakra reserves would not be an issue if everyone was just getting their strength reduced to 30%, but Kisame's reserves are something to be noticed.
This is why the databook says that when their chakra runs out, the copy dies. (Sha no Sho, Page 268) Kisame, the member with the most chakra, being copied and him being the best suited for a technique that falters when the clone runs out of chakra, makes more sense.
Kakashi has also witnessed the physical strength of Itachi while he was fighting Kurenai, and he never mentioned his physicals being inferior, or even his speed.
TL;DR: Kakashi says that Itachi's ninjutsu is the same, but Itachi is shown to not be able to use higher level ninjutsu. Kisame, known for his large reserves, is stated to be the best for a technique that depends on the amount of chakra in a person. Strength comes in different forms, and showing that the strength of Itachi's ninjutsu is exactly the same and nobody comments on the physicals of Kisame or Itachi (Kisame, who Guy fought in Part 1. Nobody physically fought Itachi back then except Kurenai, but Kakashi did witness it), it probably refers to his chakra usage. The jutsu doesn't nerf strength (as in physicals or Ninjutsu), but it nerfs stamina.
Credit to @KingTempest for the above explanation.
So here's the currently accepted explanation for how the amp provided by the Curse Mark's Second State works.
With that in mind, here's a quick rundown for the bits relevant to this thread. The Curse Mark is NOT a set multiplier, but rather an addition of chakra, fueled by the chakra Orochimaru inputted into the Curse Marks of various users. This amount of chakra was enough to amplify the Sound 5's (as well as Sasuke's) chakra levels and strength by 10 times back in Part I.
As of Part II, Sasuke has made tremendous leaps in strength and advanced far beyond where he was in Part I thanks to the 2.5 years he spent training with Orochimaru. This means that, logically speaking, the amp he received from the Curse Mark's Second State would be less than it was before. In other words, the increase would be less than 10 times.
To better visualize this, let's assume that P1 VOTE CS1 Sasuke was a 5, and his CS2 made him a 50. Now if P2 CS1 Sasuke were a 10, his CS2 would be a 55. Well, why didn't he become a 100? Isn't this supposed to be a 10x amp? No. As I said, it's not a set multiplier, but rather a chakra amp. So it works through addition rather than multiplication. This has the consequence of the amp being worth less as the characters themselves get stronger.
So what does this mean for the scaling being proposed in this thread? Well, it means that CS1 Sasuke in Part II should be less than 10 times weaker than his CS2 state. Since we don't know how much less, exactly, we'll use the 10x value as a lowball.
This means that CS1 Sasuke will be at least 1/10th of CS2's calced value, and Sasuke's base form will downscale for the reasons mentioned below in the scaling section.
With that in mind, here's a quick rundown for the bits relevant to this thread. The Curse Mark is NOT a set multiplier, but rather an addition of chakra, fueled by the chakra Orochimaru inputted into the Curse Marks of various users. This amount of chakra was enough to amplify the Sound 5's (as well as Sasuke's) chakra levels and strength by 10 times back in Part I.
As of Part II, Sasuke has made tremendous leaps in strength and advanced far beyond where he was in Part I thanks to the 2.5 years he spent training with Orochimaru. This means that, logically speaking, the amp he received from the Curse Mark's Second State would be less than it was before. In other words, the increase would be less than 10 times.
To better visualize this, let's assume that P1 VOTE CS1 Sasuke was a 5, and his CS2 made him a 50. Now if P2 CS1 Sasuke were a 10, his CS2 would be a 55. Well, why didn't he become a 100? Isn't this supposed to be a 10x amp? No. As I said, it's not a set multiplier, but rather a chakra amp. So it works through addition rather than multiplication. This has the consequence of the amp being worth less as the characters themselves get stronger.
So what does this mean for the scaling being proposed in this thread? Well, it means that CS1 Sasuke in Part II should be less than 10 times weaker than his CS2 state. Since we don't know how much less, exactly, we'll use the 10x value as a lowball.
This means that CS1 Sasuke will be at least 1/10th of CS2's calced value, and Sasuke's base form will downscale for the reasons mentioned below in the scaling section.
With those out of the way, let’s get into the scaling.
With the above explanation, CS1 Sasuke would scale to less than 10x weaker than his CS2 self, putting him >139.2 megatons (7-A). His base form would downscale, as he could match MS Itachi with shurikenjutsu and physically clash with him (Chapter 387), with MS Itachi being shown to be comparable, albeit inferior, to CS1.5 Sasuke (Chapter 389). That leaves us with this scaling chain:
Hebi Sasuke ≈ MS Itachi =< CS1.5 Sasuke > CS1 Sasuke > 139.2 megatons
Taka Sasuke shouldn’t be much weaker than his Hebi self, as the only difference between them was Taka Sasuke not having the Curse Mark and not being fully healed from his fight with Itachi (Chapter 415) and of course, having the Mangekyō Sharingan. So Taka Sasuke downscales from base Hebi Sasuke. Killer B would scale above this, as he casually kept up with Sasuke and no-sold a kick from him and overpowered him (Chapter 411). Kisame scales to B, as he matched his headbutt after stealing his V1 chakra (Chapter 470), and 3T Itachi scales to Kisame (Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations). That leaves us with this scaling chain:
139.2 megatons ≈ MS Itachi > 3T Itachi = Kisame = Killer B >= 3T Taka Sasuke =< Hebi Sasuke ≈ 139.2 megatons
Condensing it down to what really matters, Taka Sasuke, Killer B and Kisame downscale from 139.2 megatons. I think a reasonable guesstimation here would be to downscale them to baseline 7-A, or 100 megatons. And that will bring us to the final step of this new scaling.
Might Guy was able to send Kisame flying with a kick(Chapter 143), and he could block one of his hits, but he was overpowered by the follow-up strike (Chapter 258). Kakashi could clash with Kisame’s Water Shark Bullet (Chapter 141) and was stated to be a threat to him by Itachi (Chapter 142), but was shown to be weaker than 3T Itachi (Chapter 258), who was equal to Kisame. Asuma could block Kisame’s attack, but was being overpowered (Chapter 141). Overall, this paints a picture of the Kakashi tier characters being comparable, but noticeably inferior to the likes of Kisame.
100 megatons = Kisame >= Kakashi ≈ Might Guy ≈ Asuma
Since Kisame is baseline 7-A, these guys should downscale to baseline 7-B+, or 53.15 megatons. This is what most of the verse will be scaling to now.
Hebi Sasuke ≈ MS Itachi =< CS1.5 Sasuke > CS1 Sasuke > 139.2 megatons
Taka Sasuke shouldn’t be much weaker than his Hebi self, as the only difference between them was Taka Sasuke not having the Curse Mark and not being fully healed from his fight with Itachi (Chapter 415) and of course, having the Mangekyō Sharingan. So Taka Sasuke downscales from base Hebi Sasuke. Killer B would scale above this, as he casually kept up with Sasuke and no-sold a kick from him and overpowered him (Chapter 411). Kisame scales to B, as he matched his headbutt after stealing his V1 chakra (Chapter 470), and 3T Itachi scales to Kisame (Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations). That leaves us with this scaling chain:
139.2 megatons ≈ MS Itachi > 3T Itachi = Kisame = Killer B >= 3T Taka Sasuke =< Hebi Sasuke ≈ 139.2 megatons
Condensing it down to what really matters, Taka Sasuke, Killer B and Kisame downscale from 139.2 megatons. I think a reasonable guesstimation here would be to downscale them to baseline 7-A, or 100 megatons. And that will bring us to the final step of this new scaling.
Might Guy was able to send Kisame flying with a kick(Chapter 143), and he could block one of his hits, but he was overpowered by the follow-up strike (Chapter 258). Kakashi could clash with Kisame’s Water Shark Bullet (Chapter 141) and was stated to be a threat to him by Itachi (Chapter 142), but was shown to be weaker than 3T Itachi (Chapter 258), who was equal to Kisame. Asuma could block Kisame’s attack, but was being overpowered (Chapter 141). Overall, this paints a picture of the Kakashi tier characters being comparable, but noticeably inferior to the likes of Kisame.
100 megatons = Kisame >= Kakashi ≈ Might Guy ≈ Asuma
Since Kisame is baseline 7-A, these guys should downscale to baseline 7-B+, or 53.15 megatons. This is what most of the verse will be scaling to now.
Here’s a sandbox that shows the characters with notably revised scaling, everyone else keeps their current justification with the tiers changed, and here’s a sandbox that shows that every character is scaling to.
In summary;
- 30% clone scaling is removed
- CS1 Hebi Sasuke scales above 1/10th of CS2 Hebi Sasuke, putting them at 139.2 megatons (7-A)
- Kisame tier characters downscale from Hebi Sasuke tiers to baseline 7-A
- Kakashi tier characters downscale from Kisame tiers to 7-B+
