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Ada’s Mind Manipulation Discussion

Deceived3596

Deceived3596

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Introduction:

I’ve finally decided to create this thread as I’m tired of constantly bickering back and forth with people on the layering of Ada’s Mind Manipulation. Having an actual accepted level of layering for Ada’s Mind Manipulation would rectify this issue and cease possible future debates on Ada’s capabilities.

The Issue:

So it’s been debated for some time now in multiple threads (mostly in the top 10 non-smurf list) on if Ada’s Mind Manipulation should scale off of Genjutsu resistance scaling or not. This is because Ada’s capable of effecting Sasuke with her ability (further context can be found in Chapters 79 and 80), and Sasuke has a resistance to Mind Manipulation through resisting Genjutsu.

Discussion:

We’ll now discuss if we should scale Ada’s Mind Manipulation potency from Sasuke’s Genjutsu resistance layering or not.

It shouldn't scale - @KingTempest

It should scale - @Duedate8898

Neutral -
 
Last edited:
KingTempest said:
They work completely different. I find no reason to link the resistances
Click to expand...
Eidas memory manipulation worked like this according to Momoshiki
”every persons Conciousness is by nature linked through chakra”
“So it’s not impossible”
”for a god to meddle with it, if they so choose”
basically saying that Eidas memory hax from Omnipotence worked through manipulating chakra (same way that genjutsu works)
so although the general abilities are very different, this application of it works almost the exact same as Genjutsu, meaning that it should scale from EMS Sasuke‘s Resistence

Edited: we could also treat it as reality warping (which means you would need resistence to reality warping to resist it, with mindhax resistence not stopping it)
 
Last edited:
I agree with them not scaling to each other. Eida's memory/mind manip is a byproduct of reality warping, not mind manip itself. Sasuke doesn't resist reality warping, hence there would be no reason for the ability not to work on Sasuke.

I have more thought on Eida's ability being functionally different from Genjutsu but I'll maybe comment on that later.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I disagree with them not scaling to each other. Eida's memory/mind manip is a byproduct of reality warping, not mind manip itself. Sasuke doesn't resist reality warping, hence there would be no reason for the ability not to work on Sasuke.

I have more thought on Eida's ability being functionally different from Genjutsu but I'll maybe comment on that later.
Click to expand...
This actually makes more sense.
 
Holding an official vote for now; but honestly, how is scaling this any different from something like the soul manip layers scaling in bleach where you scale completely different abilities, with differing mechanics, in the same chain because they all ultimately effect the soul?

And I'm talking to you Bleach guys.
 
Didn't shikamaru also say her normal love enchantment (not the Reality manip) would work on naruto and sasuke. That's one way to make it scale
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
We don't have an official/accepted soul manip layer scale for Bleach, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Spirit energy and chakra don't function the same within their respective verses anyway, so entirely a false equivalence if what you said were true.
Click to expand...
Really? You guys need to work on that then, might as well say SC is baseline lol.

Edit: I'll definitely refer to you saying this whenever someone brings up soul layers in Bleach.
 
I’m neutral on using Sasuke’s layered genjutsu resistance for Edas ability for now but I’ll comment more of my thoughts later.
 
theultimate5105 said:
Eidas memory manipulation worked like this according to Momoshiki
”every persons Conciousness is by nature linked through chakra”
“So it’s not impossible”
”for a god to meddle with it, if they so choose”
basically saying that Eidas memory hax from Omnipotence worked through manipulating chakra (same way that genjutsu works)
so although the general abilities are very different, this application of it works almost the exact same as Genjutsu, meaning that it should scale from EMS Sasuke‘s Resistence

Edited: we could also treat it as reality warping (which means you would need resistence to reality warping to resist it, with mindhax resistence not stopping it)
Click to expand...
Ability worked through manipulating chakra ≠ abilities working the same

Are we gonna say that you can resist healing because you resist genjutsu cause they both involve manipulating someone else's chakra?
 
KingTempest said:
Ability worked through manipulating chakra ≠ abilities working the same

Are we gonna say that you can resist healing because you resist genjutsu cause they both involve manipulating someone else's chakra?
Click to expand...
I think this is a false equivalence. At the end of the day we're still comparing apples (MM) to apples (MM) and not oranges (Healing).

So the logic is that manipulation of chakra (Mechanics) + Similarities among the ability themselves (Mind Manipulation) = Scalable.
 
Actually, there are some other functionally key differences between Edia’s ability and genjutsu beyond just the reality warping shenanigans as a whole.

From what I understand, Edia is RW and using mind manipulation because she’s manipulating chakra as a whole, the fundamental aspect to reality that is “chakra.” And because all human consciousness is linked through chakra, she’s able to manipulate people’s mind from her manipulation of chakra as a whole. This means that if someone outside the verse of Naruto somehow popped in, or you had a whole jujutsu kaisen scenario and a character is just completely unlinked with chakra in anyway, Edia’s ability would not work on them.

However with genjutsu, Sasuke implants his own chakra into the other person’s brain and through his own chakra being put in, he’s able to use mind manipulation in a variety of ways. This means that it doesn’t matter if the person if linked with chakra or outside the verse or not, Sasuke could still put them under genjutsu.

So there are actually some pretty notable distinctions between the two abilities and their mechanisms for their abilities are fundamentally different towards one another.
 
Maitreya said:
However with genjutsu, Sasuke implants his own chakra into the other person’s brain and through his own chakra being put in, he’s able to use mind manipulation in a variety of ways. This means that it doesn’t matter if the person if linked with chakra or outside the verse or not, Sasuke could still put them under genjutsu.
Click to expand...
For clarification; this mechanic is just for Sharingan genjutsu, not genjutsu in general. So that's actually not a distinction between genjutsu in general and Ada's ability.
 
Ooh well yeah I definitely don't think it's scalable for Arc's reasons.

It's moreso that the characters don't resist Reality Warping imo
 
YungManzi said:
For clarification; this mechanic is just for Sharingan genjutsu, not genjutsu in general. So that's actually not a distinction between genjutsu in general and Ada's ability.
Click to expand...
Regardless of the inputting of chakra in the brain, most genjutsu requires you to manipulate the flow of chakra in somebody else

This isn't that
 
I would argue that all what Aida ends up doing is working essentially like Genjutsu, since Momoshiki mentions how chakra links everyone's consciousness and through that means Omnipotence can work and Genjutsu through manipulating someone else's chakra can create illusions which have to inflict that persons consciousness. Hell we even have genjutsu that can be cast on reality with the likes of Izanagi so it feels best to put these two techniques in a similar lane.

While Omnipotence is reality manipulation, when looking at how the chapters talked about it, Eda's charm is a power derived from Omnipotence so while connected the two abilities should be treated as separate. And if they're separate I say it fair to scale Eda's charm over the likes of Sasuke's genjutsu resistance, with a bit of catch. Her charm would just be above the likes of Sasuke's eternal mangekyo, since he no longer has the rinne-sharigan as far as we know.

If we don't do that, then I guess we'd end up having it so that her charm can only be resisted if you resist Reality Warping which I don't think is the proper implication we're to go with.
 
it would scale. because the means are irrelevant because sasuke's mind resistance is not based on the delivery method as described and accepted on this wiki when i made my genjutsu thread like 2 years ago.

No genjutsu doesn't require you to control the chakra flow of your opponent(its the other way around) given the fact that a massive amount of Genjutsu is described and stated to work via effecting the persons senses directly.

The fact that the mind manipulation happens through reality warping doesnt stop it from scaling either, and our resistances on the wiki are built with holistic definitions in mind , which is why when we divide the means within different levels we work from the conclusion. a strong example would be how we treat regeneration, when we divide the levels we are looking at the outcome not the method. being able to regenerate your arms is the same level of regeneration regardless of if they were chopped off, put into a blender, erased, or blown away. the alternative counter point is to divide resistances into extrinsic and intrinsic
that being that preventing the delivery method from succeeding in the first place, but this has nothing to do with resistance at all. if your skin is too hard for a poison needle to puncture you, your not resisting the poison your prevent the poison from taking effect. however if your Influenced by the effects of the poison what comes after is what defines resistance and at that point the delivery method is superfluous.

there's also this weird belief that Genjutsu is this very super specific thing, it isnt. genjutsu is a broad term that defines a variety of abilities.

Genjutsu can be physical barriers that obscure things that exist in the real world that are applied to surfaces, they can be Illusions that exist in real time with the real world and can be countered Physically, they can be created by altering light around the environment in similar ways to how Illusions work in the real world or they can be internal hellscapes like Tsukuyomi and in severe cases can warp the fabric of reality itself. so pointing to Genjutsu as some sort of contextual thing is irrelevant.

Reality warping is a means not a state. if someone can survive fire that was reality warped onto them, they not resisting reality warping, they resisting the fire. in the same way when someone gets their memories changed via reality warping, its not that reality warping is their isolated kryptonite, its that they are susceptible to effects of that specific mind manipulation, and if they resist it they are resisting the effects not the means. which is why characters like Sarada and Sumire aren't suddenly getting reality warping resistances, or why we don't do this in general across the board unless theres strong evidence that the resistance is universal to the method.

So yes I do think it should scale but only to the version of sasuke that was effected. i should also clarify i am talking about resistances here not potency and there doesn't have to be inherent linearity between potency and resistance, given that sharingan users can put themselves into a genjutsu.

Now I've said what I needed, I leave the rest for the other staff and other members votes.
 
Last edited:
No shouldn't scale. Momo even says it's not like Genjutsu.
d0iByv9.png
 
Since you grabbed that scan specfically, I would hope you read the rest of the page where Momoshiki proceeds to explain the why it's different from a momentary deception like genjutsu.

This page where he says right after that:


As in, Eida was simply the trigger. Even if you were to kill her now, it would not reverse the changes that have already taken place.

Sounds like the difference here is that unlike Genjutsu, which normally falls apart when the caster can no longer maintain the techinque what Eida has done is otherwise permanent.
 
theultimate5105 said:
Eidas memory manipulation worked like this according to Momoshiki
”every persons Conciousness is by nature linked through chakra”
“So it’s not impossible”
”for a god to meddle with it, if they so choose”
basically saying that Eidas memory hax from Omnipotence worked through manipulating chakra (same way that genjutsu works)
so although the general abilities are very different, this application of it works almost the exact same as Genjutsu, meaning that it should scale from EMS Sasuke‘s Resistence

Edited: we could also treat it as reality warping (which means you would need resistence to reality warping to resist it, with mindhax resistence not stopping it)
Click to expand...
when did sasuke ems sasuke resisted genjutsu?
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
it would scale. because the means are irrelevant because sasuke's mind resistance is not based on the delivery method as described and accepted on this wiki when i made my genjutsu thread like 2 years ago.

No genjutsu doesn't require you to control the chakra flow of your opponent(its the other way around) given the fact that a massive amount of Genjutsu is described and stated to work via effecting the persons senses directly.

The fact that the mind manipulation happens through reality warping doesnt stop it from scaling either, and our resistances on the wiki are built with holistic definitions in mind , which is why when we divide the means within different levels we work from the conclusion. a strong example would be how we treat regeneration, when we divide the levels we are looking at the outcome not the method. being able to regenerate your arms is the same level of regeneration regardless of if they were chopped off, put into a blender, erased, or blown away. the alternative counter point is to divide resistances into extrinsic and intrinsic
that being that preventing the delivery method from succeeding in the first place, but this has nothing to do with resistance at all. if your skin is too hard for a poison needle to puncture you, your not resisting the poison your prevent the poison from taking effect. however if your Influenced by the effects of the poison what comes after is what defines resistance and at that point the delivery method is superfluous.

there's also this weird belief that Genjutsu is this very super specific thing, it isnt. genjutsu is a broad term that defines a variety of abilities.

Genjutsu can be physical barriers that obscure things that exist in the real world that are applied to surfaces, they can be Illusions that exist in real time with the real world and can be countered Physically, they can be created by altering light around the environment in similar ways to how Illusions work in the real world or they can be internal hellscapes like Tsukuyomi and in severe cases can warp the fabric of reality itself. so pointing to Genjutsu as some sort of contextual thing is irrelevant.

Reality warping is a means not a state. if someone can survive fire that was reality warped onto them, they not resisting reality warping, they resisting the fire. in the same way when someone gets their memories changed via reality warping, its not that reality warping is their isolated kryptonite, its that they are susceptible to effects of that specific mind manipulation, and if they resist it they are resisting the effects not the means. which is why characters like Sarada and Sumire aren't suddenly getting reality warping resistances, or why we don't do this in general across the board unless theres strong evidence that the resistance is universal to the method.

So yes I do think it should scale but only to the version of sasuke that was effected. i should also clarify i am talking about resistances here not potency and there doesn't have to be inherent linearity between potency and resistance, given that sharingan users can put themselves into a genjutsu.

Now I've said what I needed, I leave the rest for the other staff and other members votes.
Click to expand...
Don’t worry @Deceived3596 I ain’t ducking 🗿

So after doing some thinking about the mechanics of the ability, I actually disagree with this notion.

The reason is because the mechanism for this ability by Aida is so different to genjutsu and especially ocular genjutsu that I don’t think Sasuke even has the capability of resisting the ability even if he did have higher resistances.

This is because the way Aida’s ability works is by altering and manipulating “chakra” as a whole. The fundamental aspect to reality that is known as “chakra” in the Naruto verse. And because all consciousness of humans is linked through the chakra system, Aida is capable of manipulating the minds of all people because she is manipulating the chakra system itself which they are all linked to.

This ability and manner to perform the mind manip is so drastically different than the way genjutsu operates that Sasuke honestly shouldn’t even have the capability to resist the move at all. This is because to resist Aida’s power, you have to resist her influence on the chakra system as a whole. With other genjutsu, a simple fluctuation in their chakra can be enough to dispel it. And when someone tries to put Sasuke under an ocular genjutsu, all he needs to do is take control of his own chakra networks compared to the enemy’s chakra invading his own.

These methods of resistance shouldn’t work on Aida’s ability due to the fact that any fluctuations or attempts to take control of one’s own chakra system would have no impact on the move because of how all chakra is linked towards itself, and Aida is impacting the fundamental roots towards that Chakra structure, not any personalized chakra networks.

To summarize, the reason Sasuke can’t resist Aida’s power is because in order to do so, Sasuke would need to resist the fluctuation in the chakra system as a whole rather than simply his own personalized internal chakra network like he would with all other types of genjutsu.
 
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