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Wasn't Tsunade,clearly inferior to, but somewhat comparable to Ay during the fight against Madara? So maybe she could scale off of Ay
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Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling II
- Thread starter Jvando
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Thats another issue we have. Madara was toying around with them the whole time. They could scale to Sub-Rel, but Madara will scale to Rel.UchihaSlayer96 said:
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Thats another issue we have. Madara was toying around with them the whole time. They could scale to Sub-Rel, but Madara will scale to Rel.
Yea I wouldn't even dream of scaling them to Madara lmao. I was only referring to the kage being somewhat comparable to each other
Yea I wouldn't even dream of scaling them to Madara lmao. I was only referring to the kage being somewhat comparable to each other
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Yeah, they could scale to the other kage.
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I have no problems with the current scaling as is but keep in mind that Orochimaru has been weakened ever since his fight with Hiruzen up until when he revived, fought Itachi and got sealed and when he revived a second time. thus since neither Tsunade nor Jiraiya in base ever fought full powered Orochimaru, however I believe that Tsunade and Jiraiya should scale with their respective transformations.
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so how's this thing going?
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We just started the discussion.
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I don't see how their respective transformations enter the scaling chain here.
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We should establish a baseline first, then get into who scales.Damage3245 said:
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I completely disagree with this current sandbox of Wrath about the High Tiers.
They all scales Sub-Rel.
Third and Fourth Raikage, with their Lightning Cloak, clearly scales to Guy with the 1st Gate. Which would at least put Sasuke Taka's reactions to Sub-Rel, thanks to reacting to Raikage, Bee V1 and etc.
Obviously, this would scale to Minato, of which it fought several with Ay with its maximum speed. And Sage Mode Minato would scale even higher.
That would also obviously scale to Naruto KCM, thanks to being as or even faster than Ay Top Speed.
Kisame reacted to V2 Bee and shortly after, faced Guy with the 6th Gate.
Kakashi reacted and fought with V2 Jinchuurikis.
Etc.
As I said earlier, all High Tiers scales to Sub-Rel, with a few minor exceptions that, they do need discussion.
They all scales Sub-Rel.
Third and Fourth Raikage, with their Lightning Cloak, clearly scales to Guy with the 1st Gate. Which would at least put Sasuke Taka's reactions to Sub-Rel, thanks to reacting to Raikage, Bee V1 and etc.
Obviously, this would scale to Minato, of which it fought several with Ay with its maximum speed. And Sage Mode Minato would scale even higher.
That would also obviously scale to Naruto KCM, thanks to being as or even faster than Ay Top Speed.
Kisame reacted to V2 Bee and shortly after, faced Guy with the 6th Gate.
Kakashi reacted and fought with V2 Jinchuurikis.
Etc.
As I said earlier, all High Tiers scales to Sub-Rel, with a few minor exceptions that, they do need discussion.
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@MostPowerfull + @M3X; Wrath of Itachi hasn't updated any of the characters ratings in the sandbox I think. He's just posted all of the characters in there that are being proposed to be changed.
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@Damage
Ah yes ... My mistake!
Ah yes ... My mistake!
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the raikage should def scale no matter what, they are considered one of the fastest ninja, a first gate guy should not beat themin speed.
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I know they scale to Sub-Rel, the sandbox is free for others to edit. I left their current rating and justifications for me to edit later.MostPowerfull said:
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So let's discuss the scaling.
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> Kisame reacted to V2 Bee and shortly after, faced Guy with the 6th Gate.
He faced 6th Gate Guy, yes, but I wouldn't say his combat speed is comparable to him at all.
Guy can move his fists through the air so fast that he can create flames powerful enough to vaporize Kisame's water jutsu. Something that Kisame praises him for.
Guy later does the same move against the Six-Tails, swinging his fists so fast that they're a blur while at the same time Kakashi can just perform a single jutsu.
Now, I'm not saying that 6th Gate Guy is in a completely different league to Kakashi, but I do think it is shown in the manga that his combat speed is a lot higher than Kakashi's.
I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Kakashi to fully scale to 6th Gate Guy's combat speed.
Thinking about it, does it make a whole lot of sense for Naruto to need to unlock Kyuubi Chakra Mode in order to surpass the Raikage's top speed and yet Kakashi also gets that fast just for no reason?
Now before anyone comes back at me with "You're wrong. Head canon! Downplayer!" I just want to say that I'm being the Devil's Advocate here and trying to look through it thoroughly before fully agreeing with upgrades that may not make sense.
He faced 6th Gate Guy, yes, but I wouldn't say his combat speed is comparable to him at all.
Guy can move his fists through the air so fast that he can create flames powerful enough to vaporize Kisame's water jutsu. Something that Kisame praises him for.
Guy later does the same move against the Six-Tails, swinging his fists so fast that they're a blur while at the same time Kakashi can just perform a single jutsu.
Now, I'm not saying that 6th Gate Guy is in a completely different league to Kakashi, but I do think it is shown in the manga that his combat speed is a lot higher than Kakashi's.
I don't think it makes a lot of sense for Kakashi to fully scale to 6th Gate Guy's combat speed.
Thinking about it, does it make a whole lot of sense for Naruto to need to unlock Kyuubi Chakra Mode in order to surpass the Raikage's top speed and yet Kakashi also gets that fast just for no reason?
Now before anyone comes back at me with "You're wrong. Head canon! Downplayer!" I just want to say that I'm being the Devil's Advocate here and trying to look through it thoroughly before fully agreeing with upgrades that may not make sense.
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Kakashi and Guy both arrived at the same time to save Naruto from Obito. Guy also views Kakashi as a rival, I dont see an issue with kakashi scaling.
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@Wrath of Itachi; Guy viewing Kakashi as a rival is the justification for his base form scaling to Kakashi. Not Kakashi scaling to Guy's 6th Gate.
Kakashi and Guy arriving together in all likelihood was a planned attack (this is my interpretation from reading the scene; feel free to disagree with it); they wait for Tobi to try and touch Naruto (where he'd be solid) so Guy can kick him while Kakashi goes in to grab Naruto and rescue him. Them arriving at the same time doesn't make me think that Kakashi has equal combat speed to Guy's 6th Gate.
Kakashi and Guy arriving together in all likelihood was a planned attack (this is my interpretation from reading the scene; feel free to disagree with it); they wait for Tobi to try and touch Naruto (where he'd be solid) so Guy can kick him while Kakashi goes in to grab Naruto and rescue him. Them arriving at the same time doesn't make me think that Kakashi has equal combat speed to Guy's 6th Gate.
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@Damage
Creating frictional flames is not really impressive (In fact, I was wondering if Guy should not be resistant to Fire Manipulation, for the same reason as Sanji, but disregard this for now.). Technically, anyone supersonic can do that. And Kisame praises him, there's nothing wrong with that. It is not proof that he is faster than Kisame or that Kisame does not scale at all, just that he used an impressive technique.
This is a spamming of fist attacks. The same with Luffy, in which his fists are like a blur, while most characters simply do few actions. And Luffy is not always faster than them.
No. Literally, it has never been shown that Guy is extremely superior to Kakashi in combat, literally, it is kind of implied that Kakashi knows and has fought Guy at his gates, when he is disappointed with Guy for teaching Lee the heavenly gates.
Thinking logically, Guy needs the Gates to keep up with Kakashi, who owns the Sharingan. Then, at least in reaction, Kakashi would easily scale Guy with Six Gates. However, Kakashi showed good feats, like keeping up with V2 Jinchurikis and etc, so there is no problem Kakashi scale to Guy with Six Gates.
Many characters go fast for no reason in a Shounen. That is why they are classified in keys according to Arc/Saga and etc.
Creating frictional flames is not really impressive (In fact, I was wondering if Guy should not be resistant to Fire Manipulation, for the same reason as Sanji, but disregard this for now.). Technically, anyone supersonic can do that. And Kisame praises him, there's nothing wrong with that. It is not proof that he is faster than Kisame or that Kisame does not scale at all, just that he used an impressive technique.
This is a spamming of fist attacks. The same with Luffy, in which his fists are like a blur, while most characters simply do few actions. And Luffy is not always faster than them.
No. Literally, it has never been shown that Guy is extremely superior to Kakashi in combat, literally, it is kind of implied that Kakashi knows and has fought Guy at his gates, when he is disappointed with Guy for teaching Lee the heavenly gates.
Thinking logically, Guy needs the Gates to keep up with Kakashi, who owns the Sharingan. Then, at least in reaction, Kakashi would easily scale Guy with Six Gates. However, Kakashi showed good feats, like keeping up with V2 Jinchurikis and etc, so there is no problem Kakashi scale to Guy with Six Gates.
Many characters go fast for no reason in a Shounen. That is why they are classified in keys according to Arc/Saga and etc.
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> Thinking logically, Guy needs the Gates to keep up with Kakashi
Isn't that contradictory to what we have put on Guy's profile? That his base speed (without any Gates enhancements) is equal to Kakashi's speed because they're rivals?
> It is not proof that he is faster than Kisame or that Kisame does not scale at all, just that he used an impressive technique.
In terms of how fast Guy can swing his arms at least (his combat speed), the implication is that Guy is a lot faster than Kisame when he is in this state.
Isn't that contradictory to what we have put on Guy's profile? That his base speed (without any Gates enhancements) is equal to Kakashi's speed because they're rivals?
> It is not proof that he is faster than Kisame or that Kisame does not scale at all, just that he used an impressive technique.
In terms of how fast Guy can swing his arms at least (his combat speed), the implication is that Guy is a lot faster than Kisame when he is in this state.
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@Damage
Not exactly. Guy most of the time and despite all his training, he lost to Kakashi.
Kakashi probably had superior combat and reaction, thanks to the Sharingan, just as it did against Naruto KN0 and Sasuke, when his Sharingan matured. And as we know, Naruto KN0 would blitz Sasuke before the Sharingan matured. Obviously and for people with similar speeds, this difference must be even worse.
Not exactly┬▓.
As I said, this technique is a spamming of attacks, shown by many works, that do not exactly indicate a higher combat speed.
Not exactly. Guy most of the time and despite all his training, he lost to Kakashi.
Kakashi probably had superior combat and reaction, thanks to the Sharingan, just as it did against Naruto KN0 and Sasuke, when his Sharingan matured. And as we know, Naruto KN0 would blitz Sasuke before the Sharingan matured. Obviously and for people with similar speeds, this difference must be even worse.
Not exactly┬▓.
As I said, this technique is a spamming of attacks, shown by many works, that do not exactly indicate a higher combat speed.
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um, wasnt guy above kakashi per kakahi's own counting or something in their 'duels'?
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Guy only beat 30% Kisame with that technique, he had to activate the 7th gate to overwhelm him.
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Bruh Kakashi scales to the V2 jins. This isn't hard at all. He scales to both Guy and the jins as well as to Obito
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He activated the 7th Gate in order to launch a bigger attack that could get all the sharks at once. (The Hirudora).Wrath Of Itachi said:
It's not implied his speed was insufficient to beat Kisame in an actual fight.
@AstralKing7; it may be easier for you, but it is kinda hard for me to try and reconcile the apparent inconsistencies in the characters depiction of speed. Especially when we have a case of base Guy being able to fight Obito 1 on 1 as well.
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He activated the 7th Gate in order to launch a bigger attack that could get all the sharks at once. (The Hirudora).
It's not implied his speed was insufficient to beat Kisame in an actual fight.
Damage, read the page right before the one you linked. He activated his 6th gate to destroy the swarm of sharks. He used his seventh gate to combat Kisames Giant Shark Bomb.
It's not implied his speed was insufficient to beat Kisame in an actual fight.
Damage, read the page right before the one you linked. He activated his 6th gate to destroy the swarm of sharks. He used his seventh gate to combat Kisames Giant Shark Bomb.
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@Wrath of Itachi; Err, I think you're the one that should definitely reread it.
He says he needs to expand the blast radius further because there's more sharks and the he activates the Seventh Gate.
Kisame doesn't even prepare the Giant Shark Bomb until after Guy activates the Seventh Gate.
He says he needs to expand the blast radius further because there's more sharks and the he activates the Seventh Gate.
Kisame doesn't even prepare the Giant Shark Bomb until after Guy activates the Seventh Gate.
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No, he activates the 7th gate after he destroys the swarm of sharks.
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@Wrath of Itachi; dude. Reread the page. There's still sharks underwater when he activates the Seventh Gate. He destroys the sharks on the surface with the Sixth Gate, yes, but you can see on the page that he realizes there's more sharks underwater.
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There are only 5 sharks remaining, and Kisame shoots off his Shark bomb before Guy uses his move. Also this just helps my case that guy needed to use more power to beat a 100% Kisame, and he wasnt even fused with his blade which would make him even stronger.Damage3245 said:
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@Wrath of Itachi; are you reading different pages to me or something? I don't know how else to explain it to you.
1) Guy uses a technique in his 6th Gate state, vaporizing a number of sharks on the surface of the water.
2) He realizes there are still too many sharks and that he needs a wide-range attack to destroy the remaining sharks.
3) He activates the 7th Gate to use his Hirudora; a jutsu that has a "wide-blast radius".
4) Kisame fires off his Giant Shark Bomb to attack Guy while Guy fires off his Hirudora.
5) The Hirudora detonates, destroying all of the remaining sharks and defeating Kisame at the same time.
Which part of what I've said is wrong?
1) Guy uses a technique in his 6th Gate state, vaporizing a number of sharks on the surface of the water.
2) He realizes there are still too many sharks and that he needs a wide-range attack to destroy the remaining sharks.
3) He activates the 7th Gate to use his Hirudora; a jutsu that has a "wide-blast radius".
4) Kisame fires off his Giant Shark Bomb to attack Guy while Guy fires off his Hirudora.
5) The Hirudora detonates, destroying all of the remaining sharks and defeating Kisame at the same time.
Which part of what I've said is wrong?
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@Damage I'm saying that guy needed to use a higher gate to beat Kisame at 100%.
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Base guy didn't fight guy. You keep saying things are hard "you".
Base guy doesn't even scale to Obito. Base guy was casually perceived by Obito and when he attack Obito he simply caugh his weapons with ease and absorbed them. Guy wasn't even fast enough to catch Obito when he was solid after leaving Kamui. Base guy doesn't scale to Obito's reaction in any form.
What's worse you wanna say 6th gate doesn't scale to Kakashi. Here's the problem. Earlier you said the V2 jins scale because of Obito.
Kakashi scales to the V2 jins. The same sub rel jins who scales to Guy. Next you wanna say that Kakashi doesn't scale to Obito when that makes 0 sense because of the fact that you said the V2 jins scale to sub re because Obito controls them.
Dude you are contradicting yourself big time.
Kakashi has 3 supporting proofs that back him up scaling to sub rel
Base guy doesn't even scale to Obito. Base guy was casually perceived by Obito and when he attack Obito he simply caugh his weapons with ease and absorbed them. Guy wasn't even fast enough to catch Obito when he was solid after leaving Kamui. Base guy doesn't scale to Obito's reaction in any form.
What's worse you wanna say 6th gate doesn't scale to Kakashi. Here's the problem. Earlier you said the V2 jins scale because of Obito.
Kakashi scales to the V2 jins. The same sub rel jins who scales to Guy. Next you wanna say that Kakashi doesn't scale to Obito when that makes 0 sense because of the fact that you said the V2 jins scale to sub re because Obito controls them.
Dude you are contradicting yourself big time.
Kakashi has 3 supporting proofs that back him up scaling to sub rel
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True. I feel like Kisame scales above the first 5 gates regardless, and he's most likely just about on par with 6th gate Guy.Omimi said:
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Also damage please list the inconsistencies with Kakashi scaling to the V2 jins which backs him up scaling to Might Guy and Obito cause I really want to hear them.
It's more inconsistent with him not scaling when he is showing the feats
It's more inconsistent with him not scaling when he is showing the feats
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@AstralKing7; I'll try and respond in full to your points tomorrow as soon as I can. Though I don't understand what you mean by:
> Base guy didn't fight guy.
As for the rest, I'll get to it tomorrow.
> @Damage I'm saying that guy needed to use a higher gate to beat Kisame at 100%.
I feel like you had to have ignored my post, because I broke down the reason for why Guy used the Seventh Gate.
> Base guy didn't fight guy.
As for the rest, I'll get to it tomorrow.
> @Damage I'm saying that guy needed to use a higher gate to beat Kisame at 100%.
I feel like you had to have ignored my post, because I broke down the reason for why Guy used the Seventh Gate.
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yeah we are forgetting that 6th gate is far faster than 1st gate as long as you are not getting blitzed by it I think it is fine to scale to the 1st gate speed boost.
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