Naruto: Shippuden Akatsuki (+others) AP upgrade

[Damage3245]

Okay. I'll take care of that.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. In order to not close this thread too suddenly, and potentially cause drama, I will ask some knowledgeable staff and regular members for input help first:

@Elizhaa @TISSG7Redgrave @Shadowbokunohero @Soldier_Blue @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin @M3X @Jvando @KingTempest @Ionliosite @LordGriffin1000 @Celestial_Pegasus @Mr._Bambu @KLOL506

What do you think about this?

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, that's fine too.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I think it makes sense

 

[Damage3245]

??? it seemed your contention was with base kakuzu not scaling there, but if you agree with his hardening jutsu being there then kakuzu can just be 6-c with the jutsu, which is fine

Kakuzu doesn't have a 6-C feat to scale from. That's the core issue in this.

Instead of relying on hypotheticals, why don't we rate Kakuzu off of his fights like we already do?

Unless you believe Naruto's Rasenshuriken can one-shot a Biju, and these two fodder Shinobi could take down a Biju. These are the kinds of scaling implications you're glossing over or just accepting because you don't think there's any issue with every single character in the verse scaling to Island level.

I mean, 5 Biju Bomb are so serious that Might Guy was considering going 8 Gates just to take care of them, but apparently any five Jonin working together is equally that strong?

 

[theultimate5105]

Kakuzu doesn't have a 6-C feat to scale from. That's the core issue in this.

Instead of relying on hypotheticals, why don't we rate Kakuzu off of his fights like we already do?

Unless you believe Naruto's Rasenshuriken can one-shot a Biju, and these two fodder Shinobi could take down a Biju. These are the kinds of scaling implications you're glossing over or just accepting because you don't think there's any issue with every single character in the verse scaling to Island level.

rasenshuriken is limited dura neg and lol you think edo kakazu=alive kakazu

 

[Kidkinsey]

Out of all the debatable things in naruto one would think that the one time we get a direct statement that it would go over smooth especially since we see the akatsuki beat the jinchuriki/biju on panel. The only way deidara could have beat the 3 tails was through AP

 

[Damage3245]

Out of all the debatable things in naruto one would think that the one time we get a direct statement that it would go over smooth especially since we see the akatsuki beat the jinchuriki/biju on panel. The only way deidara could have beat the 3 tails was through AP

We absolutely do not see them beat all of the Jinchuriki/Biju on panel.

Deidara's fight with the 3-Tails was also off-screen. We don't know how many attacks it took, or what exactly Tobi did to help during the fight.

 

[Kidkinsey]

we have to see the WHOLE fight in order to scale something?
the 3 tails has island dura and tobi is mountain + the only hax he has at that point would be genjutsu but he didn't want to give away his identity so its unlikely that he used that so if he helped he had to damage him with AP. As for deidara he is also a tier below the 3 tails on here wouldnt that be thousands of attacks?

 

[Damage3245]

we have to see the WHOLE fight in order to scale something?
the 3 tails has island dura and tobi is mountain + the only hax he has at that point would be genjutsu but he didn't want to give away his identity so its unlikely that he used that so if he helped he had to damage him with AP. As for deidara he is also a tier below the 3 tails on here wouldnt that be thousands of attacks?

He only needs to do enough to knock the 3-Tails unconscious. The 3-Tails doesn't actually have any visuals signs of damage on its body from their off-screen fight.

 

[Arcker123]

He only needs to do enough to knock the 3-Tails unconscious. The 3-Tails doesn't actually have any visuals signs of damage on its body from their off-screen fight.

How do you think he does that.

 

[Wuke]

Kakuzu doesn't have a 6-C feat to scale from. That's the core issue in this.

Instead of relying on hypotheticals, why don't we rate Kakuzu off of his fights like we already do?

Unless you believe Naruto's Rasenshuriken can one-shot a Biju, and these two fodder Shinobi could take down a Biju. These are the kinds of scaling implications you're glossing over or just accepting because you don't think there's any issue with every single character in the verse scaling to Island level.

I mean, 5 Biju Bomb are so serious that Might Guy was considering going 8 Gates just to take care of them, but apparently any five Jonin working together is equally that strong?

Naruto's rasenshuriken did body half of the nine tails.

Those two shinobi fought EDO kakuzu, who should be weaker. They dont scale

5 Bijuu bombs at ONCE, the 5 jonin thing is moot, since your chain relies on a weakened edo

 

[Damage3245]

Those two shinobi fought EDO kakuzu, who should be weaker. They dont scale

5 Bijuu bombs at ONCE, the 5 jonin thing is moot, since your chain relies on a weakened edo

Weakened to what extent? The only Shinobi who have been noted to be weakened in any way by Kabuto/Orochimaru's Edo Tensei are Hashirama, Madara and Tobirama.

 

[Wuke]

Weakened to what extent? The only Shinobi who have been noted to be weakened in any way by Kabuto/Orochimaru's Edo Tensei are Hashirama, Madara and Tobirama.

A significant extent, as Madara with several amps like Hashirama cells, the rinnegan, and wood style still stalemated Hashirama. That second half is an argument from ignorance, I'm making an inductive claim based on how we see the jutsu function that it's likely the case it's making others weaker as well. It makes no sense for it only to be referring to those people and not anyone else, and to assert that is baselss

 

[LordTracer]

I think he's referencing the time he's talking about how 4t naruto near deathed him. He's pretty serious in that scene

Yeah, I already went over this. Jiraiya himself mentioned that Tsunade nearly killed him while talking about KN4 Naruto, which was not a comedic scene.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I already said that shikamaru wouldnt be upgraded, because he doesnt scale to the paper bombs

no, i see no reason to indicate they are super common, and you are presupposing they are the same strength which is unfounded

Shikimaru can seriously harm Hidan without explosive tags, so he scales.
In fact all it takes is a direct hit from a single explosive tag to severely damage Hidan and Kakuzu without hardening.

Something commonly acquired and used by Genin is an A-rank/S-rank ninja tool. Great deduction. It has been established that there are different types of explosive tags or are you just speculating?

Do all the kage scale over EVERY tailed beast at once?

Why not? If a Kage can stomp 9 Shikimarus, then 5 will manage. Madara did not say "EVERY" by the way.

"Changes according to the plot" sounds like unprovable headcanon

well the amaterasu has an ap, considering gaaras sand is able to block it easily and it is fueled by chakra

Great, we are at the point where Karin and samurai mooks are at Juubi level.
Note that heat AP is not treated as kinetic force AP by default anymore.

Hidan: Has to hurt his opponent first
Sasori: I agree with poison, but I already outlined why with the Iron sand he should scale above. Sasori>Third Kazekage>Alive Rasa>Shukaku
Orochimaru: not included when the statement is made
Deidara: Not a hax?? you literally just listed an ap attack
Itachi:Sure
Kisame:Sure but he also has impressive ap feats
Pain: CT is already in that ap tier

I prefaced at the beggining of this CRT that i wasnt saying EVERY member should be upgraded, but mostly the brawler types like deidara, kakuzu with his hardening, hidan, and sasori with his iron sand

Hidan can get a sample of the Jinchuriki's blood before they bring out the Tailed Beast. They have been chasing Yugito for a while and it is possible for her to get scratched in the process, or the duo can wait until a hospital receives a blood sample from her.
There could also be more bleeding and cutting damage inconsistency where Hidan just has to scratch the Tailed Beast (The Eight Tails seems to be bleeding after tanking a Tailed Beast Bomb, Edo Itachi's eye was bleeding after using Amaterasu, Edo second Mizukage and Edo Hanzo can make themselves bleed to use the Summoning Jutsu).
Otherwise Hidan and Kakuzu can just wait/hide/dodge until a rampaging Jinchuriki transforms back.

Lifting Strength is not AP, and sand is lacking in Biju tier AP feats... like almost everything else.

Using high speed flight for potshot bombardment runs in a verse where most won't be able to fight back can be loosely considered a hax. Nonetheless, the strongest bombs doesn't scale to him.
Using the 'he uses his Chakra to make the bombs!' argument is no different than the argument that Kaguya is physically Star/Universe level which is rejected and is restricted in the discussion rules.

CT doesn't scale to Pain's physicals.

I prefaced at the beggining of this CRT that i wasnt saying EVERY member should be upgraded, but mostly the brawler types like deidara, kakuzu with his hardening, hidan, and sasori with his iron sand

Which means that most named characters are Biju level or above.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Konan can literally create an entire lake of 600 billion paper bombs that has been calced at Mountain level+ but apparently, a small hole and some paper bombs are all that is needed for us to harm the Island level tailed beast.

Seems legit.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Paper Bombs are the most plot-based thing i’ve seen in Naruto. It’s hilariously inconsistent, it makes no sense that they would be able to blow up Hashirama’s deity gates, but they do. It’s Naruto’s spirit bomb.

 

[Wuke]

Shikimaru can seriously harm Hidan without explosive tags, so he scales.
In fact all it takes is a direct hit from a single explosive tag to severely damage Hidan and Kakuzu without hardening.

Something commonly acquired and used by Genin is an A-rank/S-rank ninja tool. Great deduction. It has been established that there are different types of explosive tags or are you just speculating?


Why not? If a Kage can stomp 9 Shikimarus, then 5 will manage. Madara did not say "EVERY" by the way.


Great, we are at the point where Karin and samurai mooks are at Juubi level.
Note that heat AP is not treated as kinetic force AP by default anymore.


Hidan can get a sample of the Jinchuriki's blood before they bring out the Tailed Beast. They have been chasing Yugito for a while and it is possible for her to get scratched in the process, or the duo can wait until a hospital receives a blood sample from her.
There could also be more bleeding and cutting damage inconsistency where Hidan just has

He only harms hidan with cutting damage, which I already explained in Naruto scales vastly differently to AP
I'm only proposing Kakuzu being 6-C with hardening, and Hidan was only dismembered by dozens and dozens of papaer bombs

You have yet to show proof of it being commonly used and acquired by genin. The fact shikamaru planned to use them against people he knew were hunting bijuu/jinchuuriki should show his trust in their effectiveness.

It's most consistent for him to either be referring to the nine tails or all of the bijuu

The Samurai only has it on him for a second, and it only touches his armor, not him. When does Karin get hit by amaterasu, and her being bijuu level isnt even a problem, since with her adamantine chains, she could destroy the wood statue that was stalemating the shinobi alliance. Of course Amaterasu's strength changes, but its in accordance with the users strength, not plot. I use that sasuke because a weaker amaterasu of his was able to hurt transformed bee.

You've got to be kidding me. We see her completely uninjured before she transforms. It's possible, ok, is it plausible? Seems like a stretch and headcanony. A BLOOD SAMPLE? Why are you just assuming a random hospital is going to have a blood sample from her, or that they'd give it to them. Even if Kakuzu and Hidan killed everyone at the hospital, how would they be able to find it.

Hidan specifically notes his attack speed is the slowest in the akatsuki and that his aim sucks, as well as the fact that kakuzu is usually the one that takes out bijuu.

Plus, matatabi is a chakra entity, cutting can function differently with chakra than with normal human anatomy

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "Lifting strength" is, but how is subdueing and beating up a bijuu not an ap feat?
Not a hax if bijuu have long range projectiles which they do. Yes, the bombs do scale to him, since he uses his chakra to make him, and that you use chakra to amp stats. Not saying deidara's punches are at 6-C just saying he has the capability to do that, hence the possibly rating

The Kaguya argument is different, because she also had absorbed chakra that wasn't hers, which is why it doesnt necessarily scale normally

Same thing with Deidara applies to Pain.

I'm perfectly fine with Possibly/Likely ratings, I just don't get why you guys are trying so hard to argue against the BLATANT narrative and the supporting databooks that say they are outright stronger.

 

[Wuke]

Konan can literally create an entire lake of 600 billion paper bombs that has been calced at Mountain level+ but apparently, a small hole and some paper bombs are all that is needed for us to harm the Island level tailed beast.

Seems legit.

You're assuming every paper bomb is the same strength. Konan's whole thing is that she makes those paper bombs out of her own body/chakra. Doesn't have to be the same for the ones shikamaru uses at all. The fact he planned to use them against people he knew were hunting/killing bijuu and jinchuuriki speaks to their effectiveness. All you're doing is arguing from incredulity

 

[Wuke]

Paper Bombs are the most plot-based thing i’ve seen in Naruto. It’s hilariously inconsistent, it makes no sense that they would be able to blow up Hashirama’s deity gates, but they do. It’s Naruto’s spirit bomb.

They can be perfectly consistent if you don't assume they are all the same strength

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

You're assuming every paper bomb is the same strength. Konan's whole thing is that she makes those paper bombs out of her own body/chakra. Doesn't have to be the same for the ones shikamaru uses at all. The fact he planned to use them against people he knew were hunting/killing bijuu and jinchuuriki speaks to their effectiveness. All you're doing is arguing from incredulity

why would Konan use up her chakra to create so many paper bombs when she can just get some average Shinboi tailed beat-level paper bombs without wasting her chakra. Konan also planned to kill Tobi so the argument in favor of prep time here is moot.

why would there be different paper bomb strengths, everyone would simply just use the strongest one because it clearly doesn't affect AOE, considering Shikamaru's explosive range is rather small.

 

[Wuke]

why would Konan use up her chakra to create so many paper bombs when she can just get some average Shinboi tailed beat-level paper bombs without wasting her chakra. Konan also planned to kill Tobi so the argument in favor of prep time here is moot.

why would there be different paper bomb strengths, everyone would simply just use the strongest one because it clearly doesn't affect AOE, considering Shikamaru's explosive range is rather small.

Once again, there is no proof that those are "average shinobi" equipment.
True. Just speaks to a paper bombs effectiveness in that case as well

Because it keeps things the most consistent? You think the paper bombs that blew up Hashirama's deity gates are the same strength as the ones shikamaru used? Yeah I don't' think so. It's likely that higher tier paperbombs are just super hard to acquire, or require lots of time to prepare.

My scaling is perfectly consistent if you just apply a little critical thinking

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The issue is Kishimoto made the world become a verse of Gods and Aliens and yet still wanted to make the Ninja part relevant, so stuff like Kunai, Shuriken, and Paper Bombs are still relevant even tho they totally shouldn't be

 

[Wuke]

Once again, there is no proof that those are "average shinobi" equipment.
True. Just speaks to a paper bombs effectiveness in that case as well

Because it keeps things the most consistent? You think the paper bombs that blew up Hashirama's deity gates are the same strength as the ones shikamaru used? Yeah I don't think so. It's likely that higher tier paperbombs are just super hard to acquire, or require lots of time to prepare.

My scaling is perfectly consistent if you just apply a little critical thinking

 

[Wuke]

The issue is Kishimoto made the world become a verse of Gods and Aliens and yet still wanted to make the Ninja part relevant, so stuff like Kunai, Shuriken, and Paper Bombs are still relevant

Yeah, using paperbombs as an outlier is a weak argument. Plus there are still ways to make it consistent as i have detailed in earlier replies

 

[Wuke]

The issue is Kishimoto made the world become a verse of Gods and Aliens and yet still wanted to make the Ninja part relevant, so stuff like Kunai, Shuriken, and Paper Bombs are still relevant even tho they totally shouldn't be

Have you read through the entire thread? If so, what are your thoughts on this. The main problem is as the tiers are now, the story of naruto cant even happen as it does in the show. My scaling is consistent and preserves the narrative as well as it supported by the databook. I'm also fine with possibly/likely ratings for Sasori with iron sand, deidara possibly 6-c ss because he can amp himself with the chakra he uses in bombs, likely 6-c with c3, kakuzu 6c with hardening, and possibly/likely 6c for hidan

 

[Kin201]

What? Deidara is not 6-C physically. Team Guy and Base Hebi Sasuke could harm him.

 

[KingTempest]

Never mind. In order to not close this thread too suddenly, and potentially cause drama, I will ask some knowledgeable staff and regular members for input help first:

@Elizhaa @TISSG7Redgrave @Shadowbokunohero @Soldier_Blue @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin @M3X @Jvando @KingTempest @Ionliosite @LordGriffin1000 @Celestial_Pegasus @Mr._Bambu @KLOL506

What do you think about this?

The thread is attempting to scale a few low tier members to the previous god tiers of the verse prior to the true god tiers.

Me and @LordTracer have consistently argued against each other on this topic in other threads.

No disrespect to the OP, and if that comes off as my intention, I apologize, but it seems as if they haven't read the several 10+ page threads where we tackled this.
We have already settled this in the other threads, and we made it to where the War Arc Tailed Beast were stronger than prior based on feats.

In all honesty, I'll just make a downgrade thread for the physicals of the Tailed Beast, because I stated this in the other thread

Spoiler

I noticed this on the Bijuu's page.


Striking Strength: Island Class (Being made of pure chakra, he/she should be able to physically produce the same energy as his/her Bijuudama),

This should be removed immediately.

1. Assuming hitting someone w/ chakra = hitting someone with a reaction. Explosions are chemical (combustion) reactions. If anything, they should scale to their non exploded bijuudamas, which is actually pure and raw chakra and not a chain reaction afterwards, which I feel like I've proven to be <<<<<<<<<<<<<< exploded bijuudamas.
   1. Non exploded bijuudama was caught by wood golem but exploded destroyed the golem.
   2. Killer B would've died from multi continental explosion from bijuudama but he could hold the non exploded bijuudama of the juubi.
2. Assuming that the amount of chakra they attack with = the amount in the bijuudama.
   1. They don't lose chakra after every punch.
   2. The bijuudama was stated to be their ultimate technique. Why would a punch be equal to that?
3. That raw chakra bs was retconned.
   1. We see Gyuki and Kukuo bleed. Chakra doesn't bleed.
   2. If they were straight chakra, them using ninjutsu would make them get smaller.
   3. Gyuki and Kurama "run out of chakra" and they're still there. Kurama gives Naruto his remaining chakra against Sasuke and falls asleep.
   4. We see Gyuki get cut. He doesn't leak chakra, it's just an octopus.
   5. Their biologies are clearly different, but they're clearly not made out of chakra.

So me, I won't waste any time trying to get the average Chunin to Bijuu level, with all the portrayal of the Bijuu being the absolute strongest things in the world prior to Madara. A downgraade thread for the Bijuu's Durability is all that's required.

 

[Wuke]

What? Deidara is not 6-C physically. Team Guy and Base Hebi Sasuke could harm him.

I'm saying it's possible for him to put himself there. He doesn't due to his fighting style. He can use the chakra in his bombs to amp his physical stats. Hebi sasuke being there isnt inconsistent either, because a weaker version of himself was able to harm fully transformed bee. And then does team guy harm deidara??

 

[KingTempest]

He can use the chakra in his bombs to amp his physical stats.

You know that there's limits to the amount of chakra that people can use for themselves right...

And you know you have to prove that it's the same amount of chakra as well right?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Once again, there is no proof that those are "average shinobi" equipment.

IF a chunin to Jonin level Ninja can get access to it, then it's fairly average.

Because it keeps things the most consistent? You think the paper bombs that blew up Hashirama's deity gates are the same strength as the ones shikamaru used? Yeah I don't' think so.

You realize Hashirama's gates are small country-level, meaning we talking about paper bombs that can wipe entire small countries.

 

[LordTracer]

Me and @LordTracer have consistently argued against each other on this topic in other threads.

Scuse me what? I’ve only ever scaled KCM2/Madara level people to the 6-C Bijuu, while the Pre-War Bijuu are much weaker.

 

[KingTempest]

Scuse me what? I’ve only ever scaled KCM2/Madara level people to the 6-C Bijuu, while the Pre-War Bijuu are much weaker.

Oh yeahhhhhhhhhhh

 

[Wuke]

The thread is attempting to scale a few low tier members to the previous god tiers of the verse prior to the true god tiers.

Me and @LordTracer have consistently argued against each other on this topic in other threads.

No disrespect to the OP, and if that comes off as my intention, I apologize, but it seems as if they haven't read the several 10+ page threads where we tackled this.
We have already settled this in the other threads, and we made it to where the War Arc Tailed Beast were stronger than prior based on feats.

In all honesty, I'll just make a downgrade thread for the physicals of the Tailed Beast, because I stated this in the other thread

Spoiler

I noticed this on the Bijuu's page.


Striking Strength: Island Class (Being made of pure chakra, he/she should be able to physically produce the same energy as his/her Bijuudama),

This should be removed immediately.

1. Assuming hitting someone w/ chakra = hitting someone with a reaction. Explosions are chemical (combustion) reactions. If anything, they should scale to their non exploded bijuudamas, which is actually pure and raw chakra and not a chain reaction afterwards, which I feel like I've proven to be <<<<<<<<<<<<<< exploded bijuudamas.
   1. Non exploded bijuudama was caught by wood golem but exploded destroyed the golem.
   2. Killer B would've died from multi continental explosion from bijuudama but he could hold the non exploded bijuudama of the juubi.
2. Assuming that the amount of chakra they attack with = the amount in the bijuudama.
   1. They don't lose chakra after every punch.
   2. The bijuudama was stated to be their ultimate technique. Why would a punch be equal to that?
3. That raw chakra bs was retconned.
   1. We see Gyuki and Kukuo bleed. Chakra doesn't bleed.
   2. If they were straight chakra, them using ninjutsu would make them get smaller.
   3. Gyuki and Kurama "run out of chakra" and they're still there. Kurama gives Naruto his remaining chakra against Sasuke and falls asleep.
   4. We see Gyuki get cut. He doesn't leak chakra, it's just an octopus.
   5. Their biologies are clearly different, but they're clearly not made out of chakra.

So me, I won't waste any time trying to get the average Chunin to Bijuu level, with all the portrayal of the Bijuu being the absolute strongest things in the world prior to Madara. A downgraade thread for the Bijuu's Durability is all that's required.

The thing is, the akatsuki aren't "Low tiers" their purpose in the story is to take out these supposed "God tiers you're talking about" If you want to say the WA bijuu are stronger, off feats, it just upscales pre wa bijuu because they arent weakened by the Edo Tensei. No chunin are going to bijuu level??? Where are you getting this from? And no, the bijuu are DEFINITELY not the strongest thing in the Verse until Madara. Plenty of characters are at bijuu level prior to that. The 4th raikage is stronger than his perfect jinchuuriki brother, who is stronger than the 8 tails. Karin literally says his chakra is approaching bijuu levels when he somewhat powers up in the Five Kage summit, and the last tailed beast she saw was fully transformed bee. Other characters like Orochimaru who was originally recruited to take out bijuu and can eliminate people like Rasa who subdued shukaku on the regular as well as being even with hiruzen should be bijuu level. Bijuus arent as strong as you are making them out to be

 

[Antvasima]

KingTempest does seem to make good points. If this issue has been argued about very extensively before, it might be a good idea to close this thread after all.

 

[LordTracer]

Oh yeahhhhhhhhhhh

Yeah, I brought up the idea of the Pre-War Bijuu being weaker even before the forum move lmao, I think the Akatsuki are like 7-B+/7-A going off of current calcs.

 

[Wuke]

IF a chunin to Jonin level Ninja can get access to it, then it's fairly average.

You realize Hashirama's gates are small country-level, meaning we talking about paper bombs that can wipe entire small countries.

Are you referring to shikamaru? You realize his mission was to hunt down the akatsuki members correct? Why would they not give him stronger paper bombs, especially if he has someone like Kakashi on his team.

Well, Hashirama's Deity gates should be stronger than that, but regardless, that just lends credence to the idea that A: Paper bombs are wildly inconsistent and shouldnt be used as anti feats, or B: They vary in strength and things remain perfectly consistent

 

[Damage3245]

The 4th raikage is stronger than his perfect jinchuuriki brother, who is stronger than the 8 tails.

Killer B, without transforming, is absolutely not stronger than the Eight-Tails.

Karin literally says his chakra is approaching bijuu levels when he somewhat powers up in the Five Kage summit, and the last tailed beast she saw was fully transformed bee.

That does not mean Biju-level AP.

Other characters like Orochimaru who was originally recruited to take out bijuu and can eliminate people like Rasa who subdued shukaku on the regular as well as being even with hiruzen should be bijuu level.

You keep on referencing off-screen fights as if that is any kind of meaningful feat.

 

[BlackeJan]

So pretty much this is “if outliers didn’t exist”