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Nanatsu no Taizai CRT: Chaos Did Not Create Purgatory

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CloverDragon03

CloverDragon03

He/Him
VS Battles
Calculation Group
11,168
17,287
Why did I do this? Am I stupid?

So, following a recent NNT thread, I came to the realization of something: Chaos is currently accepted as having created Purgatory. When looking through the scans justifying this, I came to realize just how faulty this is. As such, I'd like to remove this, and any abilities that result from this.

Let's begin...

This Imgur link contains the scans used to justify the idea that Chaos created Purgatory. I'll go through the two scans one by one.

The First Scan
The part of this scan that attempts to justify Chaos creating Purgatory is this part right here. I'll go over my issues with this.
  1. Being called "a land of chaos" doesn't mean Chaos created it. It just means it's a chaotic land, which is explained further by the rest of the quote, which says: "run rampant by the mutilated souls of the lost and predatory monsters seeking their prey."
  2. The Imgur blog attempts to justify that this is referring to Chaos, but the attempt is very poor. It just talks about how Merlin knows about Chaos, and somehow that instantly means "well it's probably about Chaos." The other examples used are also irrelevant. For example, the Lady of the Lake being wrought from Chaos is fine, because the text says "Chaos" instead of "chaos," indicating a reference to the actual being rather than just something of chaotic nature. And that's also the thing... All this ended up arguing was that it's only probably about Chaos, which isn't even true to begin with. This justification is incredibly faulty.
The Second Scan
The part of this scan that attempts to justify Chaos creating Purgatory is this part right here. I'll go over my issues with this as well.
  1. The thing in question that is supposedly created by Chaos is said to be "born of chaos and disorder." That's the important part: chaos and disorder. This already confirms that this is a being not created by Chaos, but rather, it is chaotic in nature (unless there's some god called Disorder we don't know about, which - spoiler alert - there isn't).
  2. This isn't even about Purgatory, it's about a being called Aonan, so it's completely irrelevant anyway. I guess the logic is that since Chaos created this one being of Purgatory, then it's safe to say that Chaos created the whole realm? Well, not only did Chaos not even create Aonan to begin with, but this is a massive leap in logic such that even if Chaos creating Aonan was true, it wouldn't mean that Chaos created Purgatory as a whole.
With this established, I believe it's safe to say that Chaos did not create Purgatory. As such, I'd like to remove all the abilities Chaos and Chaos King Arthur gained from this, which (from looking at their profiles) include:
  • Law Manipulation
  • Space-Time Manipulation
  • Biological Manipulation
  • Soul Manipulation (also, this is not Soul Manipulation, it's Resurrection)
  • Madness Manipulation (Type 3)
  • Corruption (Type 2)
  • Perception Manipulation
  • Poison Manipulation (though Chaos has his own Poison Manipulation separate from this, so he keeps the ability, just not from allegedly creating Purgatory)
  • Acid Manipulation
  • Temperature Manipulation
  • Ice Manipulation (via Extreme Cold)
  • In addition, Pocket Reality Manipulation loses the Purgatory part of its justification
With that said, I've got nothing else to share, so feel free to discuss!

Agree: 12 (@DemonGodMitchAubin, @Kachon123, @BreezeHM, @Tdjwo. @Setsuna_tenma, @AdamVhenJP, @Faa_Tzy, @Dark_Soul20189, @Deceived3596, @Damage3245, @Rabbit2002, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Starter_Pack)
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
Last edited:
Finally this will be resolved, I've always been itching/kind of agonized about this being on the profile at the same time as it's never used. At least there will be an end to this discussion.
 
The created of Purgatory by Chaos has already been rejected I think in the previous crt. So agreed.

For Chaos abilities, neutral. Maybe other supporters can explain why Chaos got that.
 
If this is all the evidence for Chaos supposedly creating Purgatory, I agree with removing these abilities from the profile. It's an entire equivocation on the part of the profile to assume that since this world is described as being chaotic, it means the dimension itself was created by Chaos because his name is Chaos and the dimension is stated to be chaotic.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Why did I do this? Am I stupid?

So, following a recent NNT thread, I came to the realization of something: Chaos is currently accepted as having created Purgatory. When looking through the scans justifying this, I came to realize just how faulty this is. As such, I'd like to remove this, and any abilities that result from this.

Let's begin...

This Imgur link contains the scans used to justify the idea that Chaos created Purgatory. I'll go through the two scans one by one.

The First Scan
The part of this scan that attempts to justify Chaos creating Purgatory is this part right here. I'll go over my issues with this.
  1. Being called "a land of chaos" doesn't mean Chaos created it. It just means it's a chaotic land, which is explained further by the rest of the quote, which says: "run rampant by the mutilated souls of the lost and predatory monsters seeking their prey."
  2. The Imgur blog attempts to justify that this is referring to Chaos, but the attempt is very poor. It just talks about how Merlin knows about Chaos, and somehow that instantly means "well it's probably about Chaos." The other examples used are also irrelevant. For example, the Lady of the Lake being wrought from Chaos is fine, because the text says "Chaos" instead of "chaos," indicating a reference to the actual being rather than just something of chaotic nature. And that's also the thing... All this ended up arguing was that it's only probably about Chaos, which isn't even true to begin with. This justification is incredibly faulty.
The Second Scan
The part of this scan that attempts to justify Chaos creating Purgatory is this part right here. I'll go over my issues with this as well.
  1. The thing in question that is supposedly created by Chaos is said to be "born of chaos and disorder." That's the important part: chaos and disorder. This already confirms that this is a being not created by Chaos, but rather, it is chaotic in nature (unless there's some god called Disorder we don't know about, which - spoiler alert - there isn't).
  2. This isn't even about Purgatory, it's about a being called Aonan, so it's completely irrelevant anyway. I guess the logic is that since Chaos created this one being of Purgatory, then it's safe to say that Chaos created the whole realm? Well, not only did Chaos not even create Aonan to begin with, but this is a massive leap in logic such that even if Chaos creating Aonan was true, it wouldn't mean that Chaos created Purgatory as a whole.
With this established, I believe it's safe to say that Chaos did not create Purgatory. As such, I'd like to remove all the abilities Chaos and Chaos King Arthur gained from this, which (from looking at their profiles) include:
  • Law Manipulation
  • Space-Time Manipulation
  • Biological Manipulation
  • Soul Manipulation (also, this is not Soul Manipulation, it's Resurrection)
  • Madness Manipulation (Type 3)
  • Corruption (Type 2)
  • Perception Manipulation
  • Poison Manipulation (though Chaos has his own Poison Manipulation separate from this, so he keeps the ability, just not from allegedly creating Purgatory)
  • Acid Manipulation
  • Temperature Manipulation
  • Ice Manipulation (via Extreme Cold)
  • In addition, Pocket Reality Manipulation loses the Purgatory part of its justification
With that said, I've got nothing else to share, so feel free to discuss!

Agree: 12 (@DemonGodMitchAubin, @Kachon123, @BreezeHM, @Tdjwo. @Setsuna_tenma, @AdamVhenJP, @Faa_Tzy, @Dark_Soul20189, @Deceived3596, @Damage3245, @Rabbit2002, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Maverick_Zero_X)
Disagree:
Neutral:
Click to expand...
I don’t have time to argue about this rn, though Hawk and Wild pre date the DK appearance in purgatory, they are purgatory beasts and they are Chaos’s direct sons.

Chaos Is also said to have created the monsters along With humans and the principal races

I’ll agree With the CRT since idrc for now waiting for confirmation from Nakaba
 
こんとん はは う 混沌の母より生まれし

しゅうれんくつ ではグリアモールは

たいこ 太古の幽鬼 アナオン ゆうき

ドルイドの修練窟で その化け物と出会って…

まほう

いちばんけんお ちから おきな ひ じぶん グリアモール殿が 一番嫌悪するものは 力なき幼き日の自分・・・ あの鍛え上げた肉体を 見れば一目瞭然だがな きた にくたい いちもくりょうぜん

番外編/やさしい魔法の解き方

ばんがいへん

ひと しんそうしん り たいしょう かた もの ほんのうてき お もの へんしん 人の深層心理を読み取り 対象の姿をその者が本能的に 畏れている物へ変身させてしまう まあ一種のいたずら魔法だ 例えば 毛虫を嫌う者を毛虫に 老いを畏れる者を老人に――とな いっしゅ まほう たと けむし きら ものけむし おそ もの ろうじん

「ドレファ

BORN FROM MOTHER CHAOS... THE ANCIENT REVENANT AONAN.

IT REACHES INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE PSCYHE OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND TRANSFORMS THEMSELVES INTO THAT WHICH THAT PERSON. FEARS MOST. IN THAT VAIN, IT CAN ALSO FUNCTION AS A KIND OF PRANK OR JOKE MAGIC AS WELL... FOR INSTANCE, AGAINST SOMEONE WITH A PHOBIA OF CATERPILLARS, IT WOULD TURN THEM INTO A CATERPILLAR... AGAINST SOMEONE FEARFUL OF OLD AGE, THEY WOULD TURN INTO AN ELDERLY PERSON...
AND THE THING SIR GRIAMOR DESPISED ABOVE ALL ELSE, WAS THE YOUNGER VERSION OF HIMSELF... HE WHO WAS WEAK AND POWERLESS... JUST TAKING ONE QUICK GLANCE AT THE MUSCLE MASS HE BUILT UP FROM HIS INTENSIVE TRAINING MAKES IT PAINFULLY CLEAR....

THEN... THAT MONSTER IS WHAT GRIAMOR CAME FACE TO FACE WITH IN THE DRUID'S CAVE OF TRIALS

DREYFUS...

Notice the used kanjis here

しゃくねつ ごっかん いき 「灼熱と極寒が 入り混じる大気と 猛毒の大地にして」 もうどく だいち

ゆが じくう ぶん なが 「歪んだ時空は 一分の時の流れを 一年にも変え」

かんかく うしな 「感覚は失われ 頼れるものは 「第六感のみ」 だいろっかん

たましい くだ もうじゃ もの もと 「魂を砕かれし亡者と 化け物が獲物を求め 跋扈する混沌の国」 ばっこ こんとん くに

もの 「生ける者の 肉体を破壊し」 にくたい はかい

「死せる者の 「魂を蝕み侵す」 ひしば おか

The atmosphere is a mixture of heat and cold, and the earth is a poisonous place.

"The distorted space-time turns a minute of time into a year."

"The senses are irrelevant, and the only thing we can rely on is our sixth sense."

"The land of chaos where the souls of the departed and monsters roam the land in search of prey."

"Destroy the flesh of the living, and open up the body of the dead."

The souls of the dead are corrupted and invaded.

Notice how these kanjis are used混沌 (Chaos as an entity)の (This kanji indicates possessive it is often use in the context of creation)国 (Land/realm)

It is rumoured that Cath was born directly from Chaos, doesn't the fact that Cath is a creature of Purgatory support this?
 
MeliodasDeUzyy said:
こんとん はは う 混沌の母より生まれし

しゅうれんくつ ではグリアモールは

たいこ 太古の幽鬼 アナオン ゆうき

ドルイドの修練窟で その化け物と出会って…

まほう

いちばんけんお ちから おきな ひ じぶん グリアモール殿が 一番嫌悪するものは 力なき幼き日の自分・・・ あの鍛え上げた肉体を 見れば一目瞭然だがな きた にくたい いちもくりょうぜん

番外編/やさしい魔法の解き方

ばんがいへん

ひと しんそうしん り たいしょう かた もの ほんのうてき お もの へんしん 人の深層心理を読み取り 対象の姿をその者が本能的に 畏れている物へ変身させてしまう まあ一種のいたずら魔法だ 例えば 毛虫を嫌う者を毛虫に 老いを畏れる者を老人に――とな いっしゅ まほう たと けむし きら ものけむし おそ もの ろうじん

「ドレファ

BORN FROM MOTHER CHAOS... THE ANCIENT REVENANT AONAN.

IT REACHES INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE PSCYHE OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND TRANSFORMS THEMSELVES INTO THAT WHICH THAT PERSON. FEARS MOST. IN THAT VAIN, IT CAN ALSO FUNCTION AS A KIND OF PRANK OR JOKE MAGIC AS WELL... FOR INSTANCE, AGAINST SOMEONE WITH A PHOBIA OF CATERPILLARS, IT WOULD TURN THEM INTO A CATERPILLAR... AGAINST SOMEONE FEARFUL OF OLD AGE, THEY WOULD TURN INTO AN ELDERLY PERSON...
AND THE THING SIR GRIAMOR DESPISED ABOVE ALL ELSE, WAS THE YOUNGER VERSION OF HIMSELF... HE WHO WAS WEAK AND POWERLESS... JUST TAKING ONE QUICK GLANCE AT THE MUSCLE MASS HE BUILT UP FROM HIS INTENSIVE TRAINING MAKES IT PAINFULLY CLEAR....

THEN... THAT MONSTER IS WHAT GRIAMOR CAME FACE TO FACE WITH IN THE DRUID'S CAVE OF TRIALS

DREYFUS...

Notice the used kanjis here

しゃくねつ ごっかん いき 「灼熱と極寒が 入り混じる大気と 猛毒の大地にして」 もうどく だいち

ゆが じくう ぶん なが 「歪んだ時空は 一分の時の流れを 一年にも変え」

かんかく うしな 「感覚は失われ 頼れるものは 「第六感のみ」 だいろっかん

たましい くだ もうじゃ もの もと 「魂を砕かれし亡者と 化け物が獲物を求め 跋扈する混沌の国」 ばっこ こんとん くに

もの 「生ける者の 肉体を破壊し」 にくたい はかい

「死せる者の 「魂を蝕み侵す」 ひしば おか

The atmosphere is a mixture of heat and cold, and the earth is a poisonous place.

"The distorted space-time turns a minute of time into a year."

"The senses are irrelevant, and the only thing we can rely on is our sixth sense."

"The land of chaos where the souls of the departed and monsters roam the land in search of prey."

"Destroy the flesh of the living, and open up the body of the dead."

The souls of the dead are corrupted and invaded.

Notice how these kanjis are used混沌 (Chaos as an entity)の (This kanji indicates possessive it is often use in the context of creation)国 (Land/realm)

It is rumoured that Cath was born directly from Chaos, doesn't the fact that Cath is a creature of Purgatory support this?
Click to expand...
This proved absolutely nothing
 
MeliodasDeUzyy said:
こんとん はは う 混沌の母より生まれし

しゅうれんくつ ではグリアモールは

たいこ 太古の幽鬼 アナオン ゆうき

ドルイドの修練窟で その化け物と出会って…

まほう

いちばんけんお ちから おきな ひ じぶん グリアモール殿が 一番嫌悪するものは 力なき幼き日の自分・・・ あの鍛え上げた肉体を 見れば一目瞭然だがな きた にくたい いちもくりょうぜん

番外編/やさしい魔法の解き方

ばんがいへん

ひと しんそうしん り たいしょう かた もの ほんのうてき お もの へんしん 人の深層心理を読み取り 対象の姿をその者が本能的に 畏れている物へ変身させてしまう まあ一種のいたずら魔法だ 例えば 毛虫を嫌う者を毛虫に 老いを畏れる者を老人に――とな いっしゅ まほう たと けむし きら ものけむし おそ もの ろうじん

「ドレファ

BORN FROM MOTHER CHAOS... THE ANCIENT REVENANT AONAN.

IT REACHES INTO THE DEPTHS OF THE PSCYHE OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND TRANSFORMS THEMSELVES INTO THAT WHICH THAT PERSON. FEARS MOST. IN THAT VAIN, IT CAN ALSO FUNCTION AS A KIND OF PRANK OR JOKE MAGIC AS WELL... FOR INSTANCE, AGAINST SOMEONE WITH A PHOBIA OF CATERPILLARS, IT WOULD TURN THEM INTO A CATERPILLAR... AGAINST SOMEONE FEARFUL OF OLD AGE, THEY WOULD TURN INTO AN ELDERLY PERSON...
AND THE THING SIR GRIAMOR DESPISED ABOVE ALL ELSE, WAS THE YOUNGER VERSION OF HIMSELF... HE WHO WAS WEAK AND POWERLESS... JUST TAKING ONE QUICK GLANCE AT THE MUSCLE MASS HE BUILT UP FROM HIS INTENSIVE TRAINING MAKES IT PAINFULLY CLEAR....

THEN... THAT MONSTER IS WHAT GRIAMOR CAME FACE TO FACE WITH IN THE DRUID'S CAVE OF TRIALS

DREYFUS...

Notice the used kanjis here

しゃくねつ ごっかん いき 「灼熱と極寒が 入り混じる大気と 猛毒の大地にして」 もうどく だいち

ゆが じくう ぶん なが 「歪んだ時空は 一分の時の流れを 一年にも変え」

かんかく うしな 「感覚は失われ 頼れるものは 「第六感のみ」 だいろっかん

たましい くだ もうじゃ もの もと 「魂を砕かれし亡者と 化け物が獲物を求め 跋扈する混沌の国」 ばっこ こんとん くに

もの 「生ける者の 肉体を破壊し」 にくたい はかい

「死せる者の 「魂を蝕み侵す」 ひしば おか

The atmosphere is a mixture of heat and cold, and the earth is a poisonous place.

"The distorted space-time turns a minute of time into a year."

"The senses are irrelevant, and the only thing we can rely on is our sixth sense."

"The land of chaos where the souls of the departed and monsters roam the land in search of prey."

"Destroy the flesh of the living, and open up the body of the dead."

The souls of the dead are corrupted and invaded.

Notice how these kanjis are used混沌 (Chaos as an entity)の (This kanji indicates possessive it is often use in the context of creation)国 (Land/realm)

It is rumoured that Cath was born directly from Chaos, doesn't the fact that Cath is a creature of Purgatory support this?
Click to expand...
The 2 proofs with kanji i think don't work. It's also clear that doesn't lead to the entity 'Chaos'. Morever, this has already rejected[if i remember correctly]. Although the 3rd evidence, it can indeed be used.

But it still requires other strong evidence.
 
This is just equivocating terms again.

The initial Kanji describing Chaos/Chaotic isn't evidence of Chaos himself creating the dimension. Both words having the same name/grammatical structure doesn't mean they're describing the same thing when words are contextual based, and have separate word senses (Syntax =/= Semantics). It's on you to prove that when it's described as being chaotic, it's a characteristic gained by it being created through Chaos's power.

The secondary Kanji just describes "of" from what I've seen in my research, which fits perfectly into it being described as a world of chaos/chaotic world. The possessive in that grammatical structure would be that characteristic of chaotic. Which, again, isn't evidence of Chaos, the entity, creating the world. It's on you to evidence the possessive being a possessive pronoun, something that's attached to an actual entity.

The final Kanji is just it describing the land of this world, which is characterized by its chaotic nature.

Nothing from what I have seen from that post actually proves Chaos, the entity, created the world. Rather, it's just describing the dimension as chaotic because of all the crazy things that happen within it.

As for the Cath stuff, it would be circumstantial at best since being created and residing in a world doesn't inherently mean your creator also created that realm. It's not something deductively true, but rather inductively gained.
 
Deceived3596 said:
This is just equivocating terms again.

The initial Kanji describing Chaos/Chaotic isn't evidence of Chaos himself creating the dimension. Both words having the same name/grammatical structure doesn't mean they're describing the same thing when words are contextual based, and have separate word senses (Syntax =/= Semantics). It's on you to prove that when it's described as being chaotic, it's a characteristic gained by it being created through Chaos's power.

The secondary Kanji just describes "of" from what I've seen in my research, which fits perfectly into it being described as a world of chaos/chaotic world. The possessive in that grammatical structure would be that characteristic of chaotic. Which, again, isn't evidence of Chaos, the entity, creating the world. It's on you to evidence the possessive being a possessive pronoun, something that's attached to an actual entity.

The final Kanji is just it describing the land of this world, which is characterized by its chaotic nature.

Nothing from what I have seen from that post actually proves Chaos, the entity, created the world. Rather, it's just describing the dimension as chaotic because of all the crazy things that happen within it.

As for the Cath stuff, it would be circumstantial at best since being created and residing in a world doesn't inherently mean your creator also created that realm. It's not something deductively true, but rather inductively gained.
Click to expand...
Okay then.
 
I've finally gotten around to applying the changes. I left Chaos's Biological Manipulation and Poison Manipulation intact since they have their own justifications outside of Purgatory nonsense, but beyond that, all the mentioned abilities have been removed

This thread can now be closed
 
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