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MULTIVERSAL BLEACH UPGRADE
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
- Start date
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2-A Yhwach but still gets speed blitzed by Deku 
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I agree FRA
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I love you
Arcker123
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This will be removed in 3 months
I agree
I agree
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This seems relatively straightforward. I agree.
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Yes, how dare I disagree with a revision that argues what "The Almighty" sees isn't just "possibilities", but an infinite amount of physical timelines he can freely manipulate at will - despite the fact that infinite timelines, as physical space-times, aren't established to exist in the series proper, which is what the OP is trying to argue for this upgrade.
No, I'm just in favor of genuinely accurate information for any series as a whole, which includes Bleach. Being against your specific interpretations doesn't mean I'm against Bleach. It means I'm against information I consider to be inaccurate or false, or driven by clear personal biases.
Fate is the endpoint of a sequence of events, a predetermined sequence of events, and/or the predetermined actions people collectively make towards a specific outcome, depending on how the story uses the concept.
Meanwhile, causality is cause and effect, how one event leads to another event. You cannot have Fate without Causality. That's why I describe "The Almighty" as Causality Manipulation.
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- Thread starter
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This is exactly what is stated by the big man Yhwach himself as evident by the scans and translations in the OP.
Cool? The Almighty is still Fate manip.
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What r u even arguing bro
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The fact that these possibilities exist is an inherent indication that timelines do exist within these possible futures, you literally can't have possibilities existing within your cosmology without possessing somesort of a timeline.
Possibilities denote an action/thing that could happen, for such things to happen it'll need somesort of an time-axis to exist because actions require time and space to occur, can't believe i need to explain this to you.
You still haven't debunked this assertion, this argument is dookie.
Also timelines are inherently non physical, there's no such thing as a physical timeline and its directly stated by Yhwach and other characters that infinite futures exist within Bleach, your incredulity doesn't debunk that.
Bullshit, you're as about as charitable to Bleach as Damage is.
I'm not dumb, don't treat me like i am.
It still isn't Causality Manipulation dude, just because Causality Manipulation has things in common with Fate Manipulation doesn't mean Causality Manipulation is Fate Manipulation or that Fate Manipulation is Causality Manipulation.
Yhwach's directly tells us its Fate Manipulation, its stated multiple times that his power works by altering Fate, its ******* Fate Manipulation.
Drop this idiotic point dude.
Arcker123
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The only way you can say this is if you didn’t read the OP or you’re just dishonest.
We have several statements of infinite futures existing, as listed in the OP. You have yet to refute them, but you’re instead just saying “they aren’t established in series” ad nauseam. You haven’t responded to the actual arguments, you’re just stonewalling.
It’s your burden anyway to prove these are “possibilities” anyway. A burden you again, have yet to meet.
That was so smug bro holy shit. It’s so ironic for you to say you’re for “accurate information” but not even attempt to argue against the direct statements backed by the raw kanji of there being infinite futures.
Do you just think all fate manipulation is causality? That’s not accepted here at all and this is just a time waster. The Almighty is directly stated to manipulate fate, and we are shown and told it does this on a 2-A level.
You’re just incoherently rambling about unaccepted nonsense and not actually defeating the arguments presented in the OP. Stop wasting our time. The Almighty isn’t causality hax.
He’s trying to defend his claim that The Almighty is causality hax.
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I wanted to explain myself more on this "needing to prove that timelines exist within these futures" point.
The existence of these futures within themselves prove that timelines exist within those possibilities because the future is quite literally bound by time, you can't have a future if time doesn't exist within it.
This is why beings who are unbounded by time have Type 4 Acausality, which allows them to resist Fate Manipulation because the future is bound by time.
Catalyst is basically arguing that Past, Present and Future isn't bound by time
The existence of these futures within themselves prove that timelines exist within those possibilities because the future is quite literally bound by time, you can't have a future if time doesn't exist within it.
This is why beings who are unbounded by time have Type 4 Acausality, which allows them to resist Fate Manipulation because the future is bound by time.
Catalyst is basically arguing that Past, Present and Future isn't bound by time
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Nope, can't happen.
For it to be a speed feat, IT MUST HAVE A DISTANCE COMPONENT. Unless the hax shows that it covers a certain distance akin to the shockwaves of an explosion or a light beam spreading out, IT CANNOT BE CONSIDERED TO HAVE A DISTANCE COMPONENT AND THUS IN TURN CANNOT BE CONSIDERED A SPEED FEAT.
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I 100% agree with 2-A Precognition. It's pretty clear cut, and the statements proving its referring to infinite futures are compelling to me.
I'm neutral on the rest, but heavily leaning towards agreeing due to Deceived's rebuttals. I just don't feel knowledgeable enough to call it one way or another, so I'll wait to hear Dudedate's response before deciding.
I'm neutral on the rest, but heavily leaning towards agreeing due to Deceived's rebuttals. I just don't feel knowledgeable enough to call it one way or another, so I'll wait to hear Dudedate's response before deciding.
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Common Deceived W
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I agree on this
Arkenis
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I agree.
If Yhwach can see infinite timelines, and Aizen's KS can project an illusion into or onto Ywach in which he can not see/find a future that is the "real" future aka the one where Aizen is shown to be Aizen and not Ichigo or Renji, then Aizen would have to be creating illusions in the different timelines to trick Yhwach otherwise he would've seen that at the end Ichigo and Renji was actually Aizen all along and chosen a future in which that didn't get shown.
If Yhwach can see infinite timelines, and Aizen's KS can project an illusion into or onto Ywach in which he can not see/find a future that is the "real" future aka the one where Aizen is shown to be Aizen and not Ichigo or Renji, then Aizen would have to be creating illusions in the different timelines to trick Yhwach otherwise he would've seen that at the end Ichigo and Renji was actually Aizen all along and chosen a future in which that didn't get shown.
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Given the multiple comments and votes made by multiple different mods after you posted this comment has your opinion changed on this or are you still overall neutral?, just need to know so your vote is correctly accounted for.
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I am fine with the cosmology being 2-A as well as the Precog being that level at the bare minimum (ANBODY ELSE TRYING TO ARGUE OTHERWISE ABOUT INFINITE NOT MEANING INFINITE AND ANYTHING OF SIMILAR NATURE IS JUST RUNNING ON FUMES OF COPIUM-FUELED SEMANTICS BULLSHIT). Hax range going that far is also fine from a glance.
Everything else I am neutral on and would rather wait for more staff input.
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Alright, thanks for letting me know.
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I’m 100% in agreement with 2-A precog, and I’ll give a tentative agreement to the fate manip and Kyoka Suigetsu stuff.
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I dont know about this
Arkenis
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what is the issue you see?
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I concede
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You really like caps lock
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When you've been through enough threads to see people argue over a word's meanings based on bullshit semantics you're bound to have one or two occasions of using Caps Lock.
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Yet I am talking about Causality in relation to "The Almighty". Here's the thing: time is a representation of causality. You cannot have Time without Causality, either, because causality dictates the order of events.
No part of my argument makes the claim, or implies, that "Past, Present and Future isn't bound by time".
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To look at the two "supporting claims" for "infinite timelines":
1. Giriko's Fullbring power "Time Tells no Lies" is built around "time". Whether it be "timers" he sets with specific contracts or, in the case of "Cannot Fear Your Own World", offering "time" to facilitate a physical power boost. In the specific context of the quote, taking the past Tsukishima "inserted" into a tree and converting it into "power". "Infinite torrents of time" is how he looks at Time because he considers his contracts to be with "Gods of Time" since he holds time in a sort of religious reverence.
However, that's just how his Fullbring works. That's how he views time.
2. Context is everything, and I have the physical copy of the book on hand. The pages leading up to the passage the OP cites as "confirmation of infinite future timelines" reveal Aura's resolve to rescue Hikone and their future from Tokinada's scheme to turn Hikone into the next Soul King, to give Hikone options and the right to make their own choices.
Saying that specific passage "confirms infinite future timelines" takes it completely out of its original context for the sake of supporting the OP's claim, and feels like a case of confirmation bias. Same with using Giriko's statement.
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Yhwach directly says the futures he sees - using "grains of sand" as an analogy - can also be described as "possibilities". The quote where he says it is even in the OP.
- それは言い換えれば無数の“可能性”とも言える
- "They are countless "possibilities", to put it in other words." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
"The Almighty" doesn't require restructuring the cosmology of the setting to work as described.
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- Thread starter
- #195
The reason they are likened, key word likened as that implies analogy, to possibilities is because in the context of the story, we only experience one timeline at a time. The story is the main timeline, what Yhwach sees are the infinite, as per the narrator statements, other timelines that can become the main timeline we experience in the story depending on what actions transpire. That’s all that means, and by no means does that contradict or debunk my premise in the OP.
Difference here is you haven’t fulfilled the burden of your claim. I, and the other supporters, have provided countless scans that support the conclusion we drew from Giriko’s statement. All you’re doing is positing a conjecture without backing it up whatsoever. Unfortunately, your claim having a far lower preponderance of evidence would just be objectively inferior to mine, Deceived’s, and Arcker’s argumentation.
The narrator makes reference of the infinite futures that can transpire for Hikone. The context is Aura wants to show Hikone that, rather than have Hikone believe they are trapped by the single future Tokinada desires. That by no means refutes the narrator claiming infinite futures exist. Refer to my prior comment on fulfilling the burden of your claim and your lesser preponderance of evidence in comparison to the arguments laid out in the OP.
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Catalyst keeps being Catalyst, creating complete headcanon assumptions in the face of direct evidence.
I'll maybe or maybe not address what you're saying since Arc basically said what i was gonna say.
I'll maybe or maybe not address what you're saying since Arc basically said what i was gonna say.
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If he continues to posit hypotheses without providing any empirical evidence or support outside of headcanon interpretations, he’s argumentation should be ignored as it holds no weight in comparison to the high preponderance of evidence backing the supporters’ claims.
Edit: he’s also failed to respond or refute Deceived’s and Arcker’s rebuttal of the “possibilities = they aren’t real” argument of his, so he’s conceding that point via burden of rejoinder.
Edit: he’s also failed to respond or refute Deceived’s and Arcker’s rebuttal of the “possibilities = they aren’t real” argument of his, so he’s conceding that point via burden of rejoinder.
Arcker123
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You're equivocating on what I mean by "possibilities"
The only reason that this possibilities discussion is even relevant is because you're saying they aren't actualities (Actual Timelines/Futures). That's the argument made by other goons peddling this nonsense, and if that isn't your arg, then this whole discussion is irrelevant.
All that is meant by "possibilities" are futures that haven't occurred. You're committing an equivocation error. You haven't defeated the claim they are real futures. You have yet to fulfill your burden. Yhwach manipulates these infinite futures to make whatever outcome he wants happen.
I gave a whole ass argument as to why this cannot be the case (Proving why they are real timelines/futures) which you didn't refute. You're a clown. Quit wasting our time. Deceived also slammed you on this exact topic, and you didn't respond. Actually address our arguments and quit stonewalling, maybe then others will take your "arguments" seriously.
To bad Yhwach states multiple times that he intervenes with all futures he sees. You're only defeater is taking an analogy hyper literally to absurdity. Despite the fact we have direct statements supporting us that you didn't respond to (If you read the OP or our arguments, Yk exactly what I'm talking about). You're a clown.
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I'm only going to address this point since it's mainly directed towards me and none of the previous posts made by Arc or Arcker address it either at all or in great detail. (i also have irl things to do so i don't wanna spend much time on a dishonest actor like Catalyst)
1 - Thanks for not even addressing the main argument within the post you quoted, you completely dodged it and instead thought it was a good idea to bring up something that unironically debunks your entire argument regarding this specific contention.
The fact you're arguing that Causality is a representation of time and that neither time nor causality can exist without the other means if Causality exist within those possible futures it inherently denotes that time also exist within them as well, because going by your logic neither can exist without the other.
So in your attempt to sound intelligence you unironically cucked yourself and your argument, good job dude.
2 - Yes it does, actually read my post carefully this time, you're asking us to prove that "physical"
timelines exist within those possible futures that Yhwach sees, if the future is entirely bound by the constraints of time, then time must exist within those possible futures because those futures exist, if you disagree with this line of logic then you're inherently implying that the future isn't bound by time. If the future isn't bound by time going by your logic then the past and present wouldn't be bound by it either.Which beyond asinine to even think about, but you made the implication, deal with it.
Nobody cares.
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what exactly is the point of being Immeasurable Speed?
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