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Tiny bit. But I'll wait and see what other staff members have to say.
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MULTIVERSAL BLEACH UPGRADE
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
- Start date
- Status
- 194
- 119
Future can have many meanings depending on context. In DB, “future” is not really a future, it’s an entirely different timeline containing 12-18 space-time continuums. In some verses, future is only the future of one universe.
Yhwach isn't manipulating possibilities. He's manipulating the actual futures he sees before his eyes and manipulates them to his ends. His ability straight doesn't work as described if the futures are simply "Possibilities."
Btw, put me in agreeing but just “ At least 2B, possibly 2A” for the hax.
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Disagree. It's just how fate hax works. By that logic every fate hax would be 4D
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Dude not every ******* fate hax allows you manipulate INFINITE FUTURES all at once, this is a terrible argument and isn't analogous to anything being proposed in the OP.
But back to the OP. 100% agree with the proposals.
Given the existence of that scan Reio posted it should definitely be 2-A but i'll compromise on "at least 2-B, Likely 2-A"
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Agree.
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Agree
If Yhwach can change everything he sees and he can see infinite futures, he should be straight up 2-A in AP 
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We literally give tiers to hax feats all the freakin' time. Nothing new. Just ask Arale.
Arcker123
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Okie dokie. I was just arguing that future in this context refers to actualities
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We do it with BlazBlue, we do it with Nasuverse, we do it with Guilty Gear, we do it with Devil May Cry, we do it with Instant Death, we do it with Dungeons and Dragons, we do it with Warhammer, we do it with Destiny. (this list goes on and on)
We do it with all these other verses and everyone mostly has no problems with that but suddenly now it's a problem that Bleach is getting it too?, It seems kinda fishy ngl.
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Arale is different. Her Low 1C is based on controlling a 5D force.
Arcker123
He/Him- 8,075
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Dawg
.The same reasoning is being applied here in principle, as with any other verse. That’s the point of the comparison. Yhwachs fate manipulation is being argued to be 2-A because it is stated/shown to affect infinite futures, which would be a 2-A feat.
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Yhwach is manipulating an Infinite amount of futures with his Almighty.
That's quite literally the textbook definition of 2-A and would get accepted as 2-A AP if he destroyed all of those futures.
What's the problem with his Fate Manipulation and Precognition scaling to such levels? you haven't actually provided an actual rebuttal to the arguments being made within the OP and made by other Bleach supporters as well.
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Oh Arc, I hate you sometimes. Had me thinking I was about to involved in a real long thread.
But looking over the OP, I do have some reservations that really come down to a difference in seeing this, so I fully encourage reaching out to other staff to see if their more in line with your thoughts.
For sure, I can agree with 2-A precognition. That I think is pretty clear cut, Yhwach is looking at endless futures.
I disagree with everything else however.
With 2-A fate manipulation, we don't see Yhwach affect all of these future's at the same time. And while his statement is an open one, where him saying he can only interfere in the futures he sees, I do think that's not enough on its own to let him have 2-A fate manipulation, especially since we're never shown any of these futures besides when Yhwach brings them into the present or when he breaks Ichigo's bankai in the future, all of which seem to be singular futures in their given moments. To best exemplify what I think, where Yhwach can see and differentiate every grain of sand we're only ever shown him picking one at time when he chooses a future to effect.
With Aizen's KS, my issue here is that this seems more like a matter of power interaction than one of full potency. As we know, KS allows Aizen to manipulate the senses of his opponents after they'd bore witness to his blade. What you've done is taken his ability and assumed I think the logical extreme that he's creating infinite number of illusions to fool Yhwach. I believe a more conservative estimate is in order in lieu of further evidence. And that estimate is that Aizen doesn't need to create infinite illusions if he just effects Yhwach's mind, cause Yhwach only has one mind in which all of this information is gathered. While Yhwach does have more than two eyes, as we're shown in several shots, I don't think we're lead to believe he has an infinite number and as far as we understand eyes they're all connected to his mind. Since KS is hypnosis, he just has to convince Yhwach's mind that Aizen is Renji, Renji is Aizen, and that Aizen is also Ichigo. Like a filter on his mind, that then extends to his sight which does the rest of the work for Aizen.
I also think this estimation makes more sense, since what you're proposing comes with the implication that Aizen is somehow also able to see these same futures that Yhwach does since he's recreating the same illusion in all of them, and we just have nothing in the series that support Aizen having awareness of that level or the ability to see through his opponents own eyes.
So yeah, I'm cool with 2-A precog, everything else not so much. Though, with Bleach a lot of the time when we're dealing with the god tiers it feels like a lot of difference ends up in the interpretation of what's happening so I'm only giving me own.
But looking over the OP, I do have some reservations that really come down to a difference in seeing this, so I fully encourage reaching out to other staff to see if their more in line with your thoughts.
For sure, I can agree with 2-A precognition. That I think is pretty clear cut, Yhwach is looking at endless futures.
I disagree with everything else however.
With 2-A fate manipulation, we don't see Yhwach affect all of these future's at the same time. And while his statement is an open one, where him saying he can only interfere in the futures he sees, I do think that's not enough on its own to let him have 2-A fate manipulation, especially since we're never shown any of these futures besides when Yhwach brings them into the present or when he breaks Ichigo's bankai in the future, all of which seem to be singular futures in their given moments. To best exemplify what I think, where Yhwach can see and differentiate every grain of sand we're only ever shown him picking one at time when he chooses a future to effect.
With Aizen's KS, my issue here is that this seems more like a matter of power interaction than one of full potency. As we know, KS allows Aizen to manipulate the senses of his opponents after they'd bore witness to his blade. What you've done is taken his ability and assumed I think the logical extreme that he's creating infinite number of illusions to fool Yhwach. I believe a more conservative estimate is in order in lieu of further evidence. And that estimate is that Aizen doesn't need to create infinite illusions if he just effects Yhwach's mind, cause Yhwach only has one mind in which all of this information is gathered. While Yhwach does have more than two eyes, as we're shown in several shots, I don't think we're lead to believe he has an infinite number and as far as we understand eyes they're all connected to his mind. Since KS is hypnosis, he just has to convince Yhwach's mind that Aizen is Renji, Renji is Aizen, and that Aizen is also Ichigo. Like a filter on his mind, that then extends to his sight which does the rest of the work for Aizen.
I also think this estimation makes more sense, since what you're proposing comes with the implication that Aizen is somehow also able to see these same futures that Yhwach does since he's recreating the same illusion in all of them, and we just have nothing in the series that support Aizen having awareness of that level or the ability to see through his opponents own eyes.
So yeah, I'm cool with 2-A precog, everything else not so much. Though, with Bleach a lot of the time when we're dealing with the god tiers it feels like a lot of difference ends up in the interpretation of what's happening so I'm only giving me own.
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He literally did given the statements made by Yhwach himself and Orihime/Rukia, just because we aren't given some sort of physical description of the feat (which is quite literally never shown within any manga, so idk why you expect Bleach to do it) doesn't mean these feats didn't happen nor does it disprove that Yhwach can do these feats given these direct statements from the manga. (which aren't contradicted i might add)
You would have to prove an actual contention with these statements instead of just hand waving them away with "we don't physically see it which means it didn't happen" when it's directly told to use that it did happen and that Yhwach has the capabilities of doing so.
We're directly told by Yhwach himself that Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is messing with his perception of the future, with his capabilities of future being able to view an infinite amount of futures.
The onus would be on you to prove that just affecting Yhwach's general perception would allow you to affect his future perception of infinite futures which isn't beholden to his normal perception (you're basically telling me that stabbing Yhwach's eyes would allow you to negate the Almighty), this is never stated and is actually a more assumption based claim to what the OP's arguing.
You're basically headcanoning a weakness that's never stated nor even implied to Yhwach's future perception capabilities.
Not necessarily, like at all, Aizen could've placed an illusion on Yhwach that would affected his future perception abilities in general, this wouldn't require him to see an infinite amount of futures to affect Yhwach's Almighty perception, he would only need to be able to create an illusion which can affect Yhwach's ability to see infinite amounts of futures, which he did and this is directly stated to us by Yhwach that Aizen did that exact thing.
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The translation looks good coming from a Japanese speaker, just wanna give few cents here. I can see how this can be 4D, why not. I agree, if this isn't unanimous already.
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We have statements and feats of Yhwach seeing and affecting thoses infinite futures.
Aizen managed to mess with Yhwach's perception of those infinite futures.
Seem pretty clear cut in my eyes, i agree.
Aizen managed to mess with Yhwach's perception of those infinite futures.
Seem pretty clear cut in my eyes, i agree.
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I agree.
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Via hax. Plot Manip is hax.
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EldemadeDityjon
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Btw SK created the realms. All timelines exist inside the realm doesn't that mean PSK should be 2A?
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Nah. He doesn’t scale to all the futures that get created since he is only creating the original world that the other branch off of. It’s like how cutting through a tree trunk (creating the OG world) =/= destroying the entire trunk, branches and leaves (various timelines/possibilities spawned by that world)
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I think the issue here is that you didnt take into account how Yhwach see the futures.
Yhwach doesn’t see directly from the eyes like us, he clearly explain that he see from high above the futures as grain of sand, he doesn’t have a vision like us, so if he see everything from high above, just placing illusion in the present doesn’t really effect much him because he could still see other future, Aizen to fool him need to fool him everywhere To make a logical conclusion, otherwise Yhwach isn’t really watching everything from high above if just manipulation the present affects him, but we know Yhwach/Kubo is really trustable when a character explain his ability that clearly, and Im sure Yhwach isn’t dumb either.
Excellence616
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I agree with the upgrades
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No, that's not how this analogy works.
Using the tree analogy assumes that there is a bigger realm that supports the existence of these other realms (Like Yggdrasil in both Marvel and God of War supporting the existence of the realms yet being unaffected by whatever the **** happens to them), which isn't the case here.
Soul King only created the OG world, the other branching timelines have nothing to do with him.
Hasty12345
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Don’t know where this 2-B talk is coming from, looks to be stated infinite
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EldemadeDityjon
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So if he actually can create infinite futures his AP would scale to it right?
Ok. Thanks for clarifying.
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Only if he created those infinite timelines quickly and didn't make a timeline one by one, which doesn't seem to be the case, as those futures popped up without his influence.
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You might wanna check that "infinite" scan that pops up right after.
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@Arc7Kuroi can u add the infinite scan from CFYOW to the OP?
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True, I was confused because people are still bringing up "countless doesn't mean infinite"He did
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