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MULTIVERSAL BLEACH UPGRADE

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Arc7Kuroi said:
I was thinking of modeling it akin to how Deceived denotes the potency of Decon, "Decon (Atomic - blah)", so itd be "Fate manip (Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ - blah)"
Click to expand...
Either something like "Precognition and Fate Manipulation (4D - Multiversal+ - [Insert explanation of ability here]) or "Precognition and Fate Manipulation (Multiversal+ - [Insert explanation of ability here]) could work.
 
Their hax shouldn’t have 4D potency given that they’re not shown to have affected 4D beings with it. 2-A range is fine though.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Their hax shouldn’t have 4D potency given that they’re not shown to have affected 4D beings with it. 2-A range is fine though.
Click to expand...
🗿

Yhwach's Fate Manipulation literally affected Infinite Futures all at once, he's already affected something on a 4-D level (specifically 2-A)

Samething applies with Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, affecting Yhwach's Precognition which is 4-D (specifically 2-A)

Both have feats which would scale both of their respective abilities to 4-D/2-A
 
W0NDER3X said:
Hmm... Would the powernull become 2-A as well? It's reliant on Yhwach's precog.
Click to expand...
It isn't reliant on Yhwach's Precog in the sense it would scale relative to the potency of Yhwach's Precog.

The potency of Yhwach's Power Nullification is based around his capability of understanding someone's power in the future, this has nothing to do with the amount of futures he can see since seeing more futures don't inherently grant you higher understanding of things which happen in said futures compared to seeing things that happens within only one future.

Yhwach would basically have the same level of understanding within all those infinite futures as he would if he was only seeing one future is what i'm trying to convey.

Yhwach's Power Nullification should be 4-D but that's deserves an entirely separate thread.
 
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Deceived said:
🗿

Yhwach's Fate Manipulation literally affected Infinite Futures all at once, he's already affected something on a 4-D level (specifically 2-A)

Samething applies with Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, affecting Yhwach's Precognition which is 4-D (specifically 2-A)

Both have feats which would scale both of their respective abilities to 4-D/2-A
Click to expand...
All fate manipulation affects the future. What you’re describing is range.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Oh Arc, I hate you sometimes. Had me thinking I was about to involved in a real long thread.

But looking over the OP, I do have some reservations that really come down to a difference in seeing this, so I fully encourage reaching out to other staff to see if their more in line with your thoughts.

For sure, I can agree with 2-A precognition. That I think is pretty clear cut, Yhwach is looking at endless futures.

I disagree with everything else however.

With 2-A fate manipulation, we don't see Yhwach affect all of these future's at the same time. And while his statement is an open one, where him saying he can only interfere in the futures he sees, I do think that's not enough on its own to let him have 2-A fate manipulation, especially since we're never shown any of these futures besides when Yhwach brings them into the present or when he breaks Ichigo's bankai in the future, all of which seem to be singular futures in their given moments. To best exemplify what I think, where Yhwach can see and differentiate every grain of sand we're only ever shown him picking one at time when he chooses a future to effect.

With Aizen's KS, my issue here is that this seems more like a matter of power interaction than one of full potency. As we know, KS allows Aizen to manipulate the senses of his opponents after they'd bore witness to his blade. What you've done is taken his ability and assumed I think the logical extreme that he's creating infinite number of illusions to fool Yhwach. I believe a more conservative estimate is in order in lieu of further evidence. And that estimate is that Aizen doesn't need to create infinite illusions if he just effects Yhwach's mind, cause Yhwach only has one mind in which all of this information is gathered. While Yhwach does have more than two eyes, as we're shown in several shots, I don't think we're lead to believe he has an infinite number and as far as we understand eyes they're all connected to his mind. Since KS is hypnosis, he just has to convince Yhwach's mind that Aizen is Renji, Renji is Aizen, and that Aizen is also Ichigo. Like a filter on his mind, that then extends to his sight which does the rest of the work for Aizen.

I also think this estimation makes more sense, since what you're proposing comes with the implication that Aizen is somehow also able to see these same futures that Yhwach does since he's recreating the same illusion in all of them, and we just have nothing in the series that support Aizen having awareness of that level or the ability to see through his opponents own eyes.

So yeah, I'm cool with 2-A precog, everything else not so much. Though, with Bleach a lot of the time when we're dealing with the god tiers it feels like a lot of difference ends up in the interpretation of what's happening so I'm only giving me own.
Click to expand...
Yhwach stated he can see all futures. Thus he can interfere with them all.

We know KS affects the 5 senses. Yamaoto was able to bypass KS using his spirit pressure sense. So yhwach should have still been able to bypass KS considering he has future site which is also outside of the five senses. So this means KS would have to affect his future perception as well.
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
Introduction
Ha get punked losers! This thread is to propose that the Almighty (its fate manip and precog) and Muken Aizen's KS (its illusion creation and perception manip) are 4D (2-A) hax.

Scans​

Translations​

  • ここから先の未来全てで折られたものを“拒絶”で消す事はできねという事か
    • "You’re saying your “rejection” can’t erase something broken in every future from this point." ~ Rukia Chapter 681
  • 未来とはここより先にばら撒かれた無数の砂のようなもの
    • "The future is like countless grains of sand scattered from this point." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
  • その一見ばらばらに見える無数の砂粒の一つ一つが“未来”だ
    • "Each one of those seemingly isolated, countless grains of sand is a "future"." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
  • それは言い換えれば無数の“可能性”とも言える
    • "They are countless "possibilities", to put it in other words." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
  • 私はこの眼に映る未来の全てに干渉できるだけの事だ
    • "I am only able to intervene in every future reflected in these eyes." ~ Yhwach Chapter 679

Argument​

The claims for this argument upgrading the potency of Yhwach's Almighty hax and Muken Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu hax are: 1) Yhwach's Almighty has 4D (2-A) Fate Manipulation and Precognition, 2) Muken Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu has 4D (2-A) Perception Manipulation and Illusion Creation.

In chapter 677, Yhwach explains what he can see with the Almighty. He consistently mentions how there are countless futures akin to the countless grains of sand or possibilities, in reference to the infinite possibilities people possess with what they can do and become in the future. Countless, as defined by Oxford Languages, as "too many to be counted" and is synonymous with phrases such as "incalculable/immeasurable/endless/infinite numbers of". Furthermore, CFYOW goes out of its way to confirm there are indeed infinite future timelines. Multiverse level+ being defined as affecting an infinite amount of space-times. So, Yhwach is claiming there are an uncountable amount of, to possibly infinite future timelines that he can perceive with his Almighty. Hence, Yhwach's Almighty has 2-A Precognition.

In chapter 679, Yhwach claims he is able to intervene and affect every single one of those innumerably vast, to possibly infinite number of futures that he sees with his Almighty, a sentiment that is echoed by Rukia in chapter 681. Rukia would have gotten this knowledge from Orihime, who got the knowledge from Yhwach, and as such should be a reputable source considering Yhwach would know his ability best. With what is established prior, Yhwach's Almighty would have 2-A Fate Manipulation.

In chapters 683 and 684, we learn that Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is able to hypnotize Yhwach's Almighty's sight. To do this, Aizen would have to place illusions in every single possible future Yhwach can see. As established earlier, that would require Aizen to craft illusions in an innumerable, to possibly infinite amount of future timelines. Therefore, Muken Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, which at this point is an extension of his body and being, has 2-A Perception Manipulation and Illusion Creation.

Conclusion
Almighty and KS are nutty, unfortunately One Piece solos via speed blitz Ryuo dura neg with conceptual haki via will being inherently abstract.

Agree: Arc7Kuroi, Jibs, Gin, Arcker, Dale, Kuki :UsoppLaugh:, Shady, Arnold, Eld
Disagree: Null
Neutral: KLOL (leaning agree)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the scans.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
It is. This is 4-D fatehax with 2-A range. 2-A/2-B etc... Are just range, dimensionality Is what matters. Don't ask me why though, i never understood the logic behind this.
Click to expand...
Currently I’m surprised that dimensionality still counts. But a while back the Sonic peeps always said 2-A fatehax instead of 4D fatehax.
 
Greenshifter said:
Currently I’m surprised that dimensionality still counts. But before the Sonic peeps always said 2-A fatehax instead of 4D fatehax.
Click to expand...
I'm surprised as well. A 2-A ability should definitely be more potent than a 2-C ability from my POV. I never understood the dimensionality argument in the first place.

Sure, they're both 4-D ,but "degrees" of 4-D are a thing,hence why we have separate tiers like Low 2-C/2-C etc....

At least that's what I think. But it doesn't work this way anymore so...
 
now 2-C or 2-B or 2-A is just range now, they possesses the same dimensionality, and range will not be counted as layer or degree, just allow you to better each
 
affecting all futures is not the same thing as affecting all futures at once, and furthermore he has not shown that he has the power to destroy those futures but only to interact with them to bring future events into the present, it is almost as if he sends a projection of himself into the future and bring something from there to the present, as in the case of Ichigo's broken sword
 
Zer00Negativo said:
affecting all futures is not the same thing as affecting all futures at once
Click to expand...
He literally affected all futures at once dude, read. the. *******. scan. that. arc. posted.

You're deadass just making up some random headcanon that's directly contradicted by Orihime's and Rukia's statement, Yhwach's explanation of The Almighty and the actual feat in question

Zer00Negativo said:
furthermore he has not shown that he has the power to destroy those futures but only to interact with them to bring future events into the present
Click to expand...
No one has argued that he can destroy all those futures so idk why you're bringing that up, you don't have to be capable of destroying those futures for you Fate Manipulation to scale bruh.

Please go read the Fate Manipulation page.

Zer00Negativo said:
it is almost as if he sends a projection of himself into the future and bring something from there to the present, as in the case of Ichigo's broken sword
Click to expand...
No..... just.... just no.
 
i do have a singular quarry, mainly with aizen.

KS was already In Yhwach’s system before the Almighty returned to him, having been affected by KS when he first met Aizen days prior. KS stays affecting all 5 senses up to hundreds of years after only seeing it once, so basically Aixen had a loophole set to affect Yhwach regardless of his future sight. Yhwach even notes being affected by KS before regaining the almighty.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
i do have a singular quarry, mainly with aizen.

KS was already In Yhwach’s system before the Almighty returned to him, having been affected by KS when he first met Aizen days prior. KS stays affecting all 5 senses up to hundreds of years after only seeing it once, so basically Aixen had a loophole set to affect Yhwach regardless of his future sight. Yhwach even notes being affected by KS before regaining the almighty.
Click to expand...
You wanna prove that it's a loophole and not just the potency of Aizen's KS? like even if Aizen placed KS before Yhwach gain The Almighty it still doesn't disprove the fact Aizen's KS was able to effect Yhwach's future sight which is 4-D.
 
Zer00Negativo said:
furthermore he has not shown that he has the power to destroy those futures but only to interact with them to bring future events into the present
Click to expand...
I deadass still don't understand why people still believe they have to destroy something for their AP to scale to it or have it be quantifiable as an AP feat in the first place.

LITERALLY READ WHAT THE TIERING SYSTEM PAGE SAYS ABOUT THIS:

"Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space."

""Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, etc."
 
Well, that gets into discussion whether or not Yhwach's perception/nervous system changes when the Allmighty returns.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Introduction
Ha get punked losers! This thread is to propose that the Almighty (its fate manip and precog) and Muken Aizen's KS (its illusion creation and perception manip) are 4D (2-A) hax.

Scans​

Translations​

  • ここから先の未来全てで折られたものを“拒絶”で消す事はできねという事か
    • "You’re saying your “rejection” can’t erase something broken in every future from this point." ~ Rukia Chapter 681
  • 未来とはここより先にばら撒かれた無数の砂のようなもの
    • "The future is like countless grains of sand scattered from this point." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
  • その一見ばらばらに見える無数の砂粒の一つ一つが“未来”だ
    • "Each one of those seemingly isolated, countless grains of sand is a "future"." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
  • それは言い換えれば無数の“可能性”とも言える
    • "They are countless "possibilities", to put it in other words." ~ Yhwach Chapter 677
  • 私はこの眼に映る未来の全てに干渉できるだけの事だ
    • "I am only able to intervene in every future reflected in these eyes." ~ Yhwach Chapter 679

Argument​

The claims for this argument upgrading the potency of Yhwach's Almighty hax and Muken Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu hax are: 1) Yhwach's Almighty has 4D (2-A) Fate Manipulation and Precognition, 2) Muken Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu has 4D (2-A) Perception Manipulation and Illusion Creation.

In chapter 677, Yhwach explains what he can see with the Almighty. He consistently mentions how there are countless futures akin to the countless grains of sand or possibilities, in reference to the infinite possibilities people possess with what they can do and become in the future. Countless, as defined by Oxford Languages, as "too many to be counted" and is synonymous with phrases such as "incalculable/immeasurable/endless/infinite numbers of". Furthermore, CFYOW goes out of its way to confirm there are indeed infinite future timelines. Multiverse level+ being defined as affecting an infinite amount of space-times. So, Yhwach is claiming there are an uncountable amount of, to possibly infinite future timelines that he can perceive with his Almighty. Hence, Yhwach's Almighty has 2-A Precognition.

In chapter 679, Yhwach claims he is able to intervene and affect every single one of those innumerably vast, to possibly infinite number of futures that he sees with his Almighty, a sentiment that is echoed by Rukia in chapter 681. Rukia would have gotten this knowledge from Orihime, who got the knowledge from Yhwach, and as such should be a reputable source considering Yhwach would know his ability best. With what is established prior, Yhwach's Almighty would have 2-A Fate Manipulation.

In chapters 683 and 684, we learn that Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu is able to hypnotize Yhwach's Almighty's sight. To do this, Aizen would have to place illusions in every single possible future Yhwach can see. As established earlier, that would require Aizen to craft illusions in an innumerable, to possibly infinite amount of future timelines. Therefore, Muken Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu, which at this point is an extension of his body and being, has 2-A Perception Manipulation and Illusion Creation.

Conclusion
Almighty and KS are nutty, unfortunately One Piece solos via speed blitz Ryuo dura neg with conceptual haki via will being inherently abstract.

Agree: Arc7Kuroi, Jibs, Gin, Arcker, Dale, Kuki :UsoppLaugh:, Shady, Arnold, Eld
Disagree: Null
Neutral: KLOL (leaning agree)
Click to expand...
I agree FYI.
 
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