Mother Night and the Presence

[Sandman31]

>superior to the boundless and beyond-dimensional Mother Night.

This should be remove from the Presence's profile. The two of them were not directly compared so we dont know if Mother Night is weaker than the Presence.

Really, if you read Sandman overture I think it even implies that Mother Night is more ancient than the Presence.

Considering that she and Father Time predates and are the cause of all versions of Creation. We know that the Creation of the Presence is just one of the version of Creation and even the Presence is just a product of the previous version of Creation (the version of Creation where cats rule over humans)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems to make sense, but you should preferably ask Matthew and Azathoth to comment here as well.

 

[Hykuu]

Being more ancient than =/= being above someone

The Presence wasn't"created" by the humans, he was merely given form by them, it's referring to religion and to how mortals percieve God in different ways.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Mother night existed before the dreamers and also The presence is not the only god in the DC . The Presence is more often referred as the aspect of god ( yahweh) in the lucifer series and also when elaine became god she after able to make the creations rise and fall by flapping her wings which defenitely shows that presence power exceeds beyond the DC multiverse .

 

[Sandman31]

Being more ancient than =/= being above someone
The Presence wasn't"created" by the humans, he was merely given form by them, it's referring to religion and to how mortals percieve God in different ways.

Thats not true. Mike Carey explicitly stated that God or Gods were created by the sentient beings across the universe

Theres nothing that contradicts this and this is actually conistently supported in verse.

"Because it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to existence. Death is limited by what she will or will not accept "

-The Sandman: Overture

"He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"

- The Sandman: Book of Dreams

1

"I mean all of it. Humans make up bullshit stories about where they came from and where they're going.And they live in them. They turn the whole of eternity into a ******* soap opera. Reality is messy and scary. Stories give a kind of shape to it"

This has also been shown in The Dreaming. There's a place in the Dreaming where the most important stories are stored: Creation stories, changing these stories not only changes the Dreaming but also all of creation. The Creation story in the Dreaming was once changed so that the Fall never happened and because of that everything whirled back to its source. Changing the stories in the Dreaming does change reality

There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .

"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"

There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God

"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"

The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation

"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"

"Except our sister"

1

"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"

Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers

2

"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"

In the Void, you see these Creations as seperate, but these Creations are just different version of the same thing and since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously

You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void

"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus"

Mother Night and Father Time not only predates all versions of Creation but is also the cause of it. Without them there wont be creation at all, or any of its creator

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NlftnssnOPM/VkINqNvIITI/AAAAAAAAPBQ/Ef_u3urAe1g/s0-Ic42/004.jpg

"Before the beginning was the night. And the night was without boundaries and the night was without end. In the beginning was time. The relentless beat in which things could happe, in which everything could become, dust could coalesce, matter could exist. In that coming together, the universe was possible, all versions of it. In it, people could dream and die. In it, stars burned and flared and went out."

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the analysis. I think that you make sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Feel free to add appropriate explanations to The Presence, Mother Night (Vertigo), Father Time (Vertigo), Cestis, etcetera.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Vertigo Presence seems less impressive compare to the DC's portrayal .

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the regular DC perspective is also from an enormously lower viewpoint in terms of protagonist character statures.

Meaning, everything looks bigger that way.

 

[Nether_nine]

Mike Carey doesn't own the Presence. And the Presence, unlike Lucifer or Dream, is a character well assimilated in the circles of other writers of DC who didn't even read Sandman. The Presence has contradicting origins in other stories that ignores the "Dream creating Gods" narrative, like in Matteis's Spectre where it literally states that it is Humanity and all of the Universe as being a dream of the Presence instead.

Using that outdated Sandman scan and lore from a story that is only pseudo-canonical nowadays, that has not even been properly coordinated with other writers and trying to hammer in it to a poly authorial written character like the Presence that has appeared in stories of DC outright contradicting Sandman motiffs in many areas is murky.

 

[Antvasima]

I technically agree with you, and think that we should delete The Writer and likely merge The Presence and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, but you need to convince other people as well.

Here are some staff members that you should ask to comment here:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Reppuzan, Ultima Reality, Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Hyku is technically right for the first thing he mentioned if we go with the fact that the Presence is eternal (existed without no beginning or end), so someone existing before him would not change anything.


I agree with @Sandman's analysis regarding this.


@Nether In a way, you could be right about that.


@Antvasmia I agree with deleting the Writer profile if necessary & like what @Hyku mentioned in a previous thread that the new profile that the Presence and Monitor-Mind should be merged in should be called "God (DC Comics)" if nobody minds that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I menrioned earlier, it isn't just up to me.