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Hello, everyone. Today, I want to address a critical discussion about debunking certain DC cosmological misconceptions, specifically regarding the Light of Creation, the Source, the Presence, and the Overvoid, while re-establishing the original interpretations. This thread will primarily focus on the Overvoid.
Given the numerous misunderstandings surrounding supreme hierarchical entities like the Source, the Presence, the Overvoid, and God, I’ll do my best to clarify and correct these misconceptions.
In modern discussions, many claim that the Source is an aspect of the Presence simply because both entities share the same position, as affirmed in Death Metal. However, the Source has evolved into the “light of creation” in the current era, a concept directly stated multiple times and indirectly confirmed in JLA #4, where the Overvoid is described as becoming the light of creation.
This shift led comic readers to notice the absence of the Presence, ultimately concluding that the Presence is the Supreme Being.
There seems to be significant confusion surrounding this topic, so let me clarify using the writers’ interpretations of the Presence and the Source.
Scott Snyder, author of Justice League 2018 and the Death Metal series, has repeatedly implied—particularly in discussions with Imaginary Axis—that the Source and the Presence are the same entity. He views the Presence as interchangeable within the greater omniverse and describes both connective energies and crisis energies as emerging from the Source/Presence.
Grant Morrison, who wrote Final Crisis and The Multiversity, interprets the Presence as a manifestation of something within the Sphere of the Gods. DC publications have acknowledged that while the Presence might be the most powerful entity in the multiverse, it may not hold that status within the greater omniverse.However, more recent affirmations suggest that the Presence is indeed the Supreme Being of the greater omniverse.
Additional external guidebooks claim that the Presence is a force beyond the Source, which created the multiverse, while the Source is described as a manifestation of something or someone. Contrasting Interpretations;
Despite these varying interpretations, a crucial point emerges:
Grant Morrison’s works suggest the Presence is a manifestation by someone, while Scott Snyder’s narratives imply the Presence reshaped Perpetua’s multiverse during her eons of imprisonment. This notion aligns with the Death of the New Gods event, where the Source descended as a yin-yang orb to shape the multiverse as an agent. Both the Source and the Presence share strikingly similar stories of manifesting and reshaping the multiverse.
In Death Metal #1, it was stated that the energies were born from both the Presence and the Source, indirectly affirming their unity. Yet, some readers argue that they are distinct entities.
DC publications further complicate matters by stating that the Presence transcends the Source, which created the multiverse, while a writer for The Unexpected suggested that the Source surpasses the Presence, shaping the Sphere of the Gods.
Spectre Vol 3 further supports the evidence. During Spectre's investigation into the mystery of the Presence, he encounters the Source, which appears as a flaming hand and unveils the true nature of God. This revelation exposes that the Source and the Presence are one and the same, both directly connected to God.
These interpretations present similar ideas but assign opposite roles to each entity.
Unified Essence: The Source and the Presence When analyzed carefully, it becomes evident that the Presence and the Source share the same position and a parallel manifestation history. Returning to Death Metal #1, Scott Snyder seems to treat the Presence as another name for the Source, or vice versa. Regardless of perspective, it becomes clear that the Source and the Presence are the same essence—one identical entity with different names.
• Source resided at the pinnacle of the cosmic hierarchy and served as the center of the greater omniverse, encompassing all multiverses generated by the unseen council by using energy. Is the one who dispatched Perpetua to create the multiverse.
• The Presence stated to be pinnacle of greater omniverse as well, is the source of energies which unseen hands used to create multiverses. Is also the one who dispatched Perpetua ( they shares the same history ).
Source and Presence as lesser manifestations :
• Source came down as yin-yang orb to keep balance the multiverse.
• The Presence manifested himself into multiverse to keep balance, various times. * They shared same functions, even in lesser manifestations )
In conclusion, they shared the same functionality and they aslo shared the same functionality when they manifested inside the multiverse to reshape.
In Grant Morrison’s interview with IGN, the Source and the Overvoid are described as the same entity. The Multiversity map also places them in the same position, beyond the Source Wall. This interpretation seems consistent until we examine Morrison’s perspective, where the Source is merely an aspect of God residing at the highest sphere of cosmology.
This creates a contradiction with the IGN interview, which equates the Source with the Overvoid, both being referred to as God. Some overlook Morrison’s claim that the “page” can represent God, the Source, God’s mind, or anything else you interpret it to be. Ultimately, Morrison suggests that the “page” itself is God, and the white page is a form of God. Notably, Morrison never directly refers to the Overvoid as a white page but describes the Source as a white page itself.
While one might argue that “both are pages,” Morrison explicitly defines the Overvoid as a transparent void, neither white nor dark.
Grant Morrison’s Interpretation of the Void in the 2018-2019 Green Lantern era, the concept emerged that the Source originated from the Great Darkness. Simultaneously, Morrison presented the idea that the Overvoid encompasses all light voids and represents light as an omni-awareness in a non-dualistic sense.
Additionally, the origin of GL states that only the void existed before the Source. While some might argue this void is the Great Darkness, current canon defines the Great Darkness as the absence of the Source, whereas the void preceding the Source is the self-referential void.
Kirby’s Vision and the Manifestation of the Source:
As for why Grant Morrison equates the Source with the Overvoid, it ties back to Jack Kirby’s ideas and the origins of the New Gods. The DC Encyclopedia describes the Source as a manifestation, and records from New Genesis indicate that the Source either created the universe or created itself. This supports the idea that the Source is a direct manifestation or incarnation of the Overvoid, which is why Morrison uses terms like “Overvoid/Source.” The key distinction between the two is that:
• The Overvoid is God, the infinite consciousness without definition or limitations and encompassing all.
• The Source is not God, but rather a part of God or a manifestation of the Overvoid’s will.
In Conclusion, Grant Morrison’s perspective provides clarity: while the Source and the Overvoid share similarities and connections, they are fundamentally distinct. The Overvoid is the true supreme entity, while the Source is a powerful, manifested aspect within DC cosmology.
We are in important part, which is
the idea of Overvoid being Light was popular during the JLI#4 which is part of dark crisis series, In this case I'd attempt to debunk this case as far as I can.
Analysis of Justice League Incarnate #4: Origins RevisitedIn Justice League Incarnate #4, DC revisits its origin story, attempting to connect the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths to the present timeline. At first glance, this narrative seems consistent, but closer examination reveals significant inconsistencies.
The Role of the Great Darkness (TGD)
The issue claims that TGD manipulated all major crises in DC’s history:
• Barbatos is described as TGD’s avatar. ( Meanwhile he's an avater of Perpetua )
• Mandrakk is said to have been corrupted by TGD. ( Meanwhile, he was corrupted by stories and he only locked himself in chain of darkness after corruption )
• All crises were allegedly orchestrated by TGD.
While this initially appears plausible, a critical moment occurs when John enters the Great Darkness. There, TGD denies responsibility for these crises, revealing instead that Pariah was brainwashed—but not by TGD.
This raises the question: Who was truly behind these events is Vandal Savage, Evidence suggests Vandal Savage, played a pivotal role. In Legion of Doom vs. Justice League #5, Vandal Savage claims the Great Darkness never existed and that he fabricated these false timelines. An intriguing detail emerges: Savage wields the power of darkness, a feat otherwise unique to Pariah. This implies that Savage manipulated Pariah to harness the power of darkness. While this theory is compelling, the evidence of JLI#4 and Great Darkness isn't playing through multiverse insufficient to confirm it definitively.
Perpetua’s Role in the Crises:
Adding complexity, Death Metal #2 by Scott Snyder explicitly states that Perpetua is the true orchestrator of every crisis. She is referred to as the “mother of all crises,” a claim supported by multiple DC publications. This directly undermines the assertion in JLI #4 that TGD was responsible for these events. Instead, it suggests that the Great Darkness had no active role in these crises, reinforcing Perpetua’s pivotal role. The Flaw in the Overvoid and Timeline Discrepancies, The flaw in the Overvoid is described in JLI #4 as a crack in the perfection of light, allegedly caused by the Great Darkness’s scream. However, this contradicts previously established events:
1. Inconsistency with the Overvoid’s Flaw:
When the Overvoid noticed the flaw on its surface, it manifested as Dax Novu to investigate the multiverse. Dax discovered life, heroes, death, and stories, but was corrupted by the flaw’s creatures.
2. Multiverse Formation Timeline:
JLI #4 suggests that the multiverse formed when the flaw appeared. Yet, established lore indicates life emerged 4 billion years in the timeline of multiverse. Which basically mean Overvoid noticed the flaw after the multiverse was formed for bilion of years but JLI#4 provide otherwise. This creates a timeline conflict, calling the reliability of JLI #4’s origin narrative into question. Like The Overvoid as the light Being Despite inconsistencies in JLI #4, it remains consistent with one core idea: light emerging from darkness. This aligns with prior origins and avoids contradictions.
Finally, we must emphasize the Overvoid’s supreme nature as described by Grant Morrison:
• The Overvoid transcends all contradictions and the three laws of thought.
• It represents non-duality and omni-awareness, encompassing all things.
• As a self-referential void, it generates the Source/Presence while remaining beyond all definitions, oppositions, or limitations.
• It stands as the ultimate state of purity, oneness, and infinite awareness.
This interpretation positions the Overvoid as the true supreme being in DC cosmology, beyond all other entities, including the Source and the Presence.
Conclusion, The origins presented in JLI #4 are riddled with inconsistencies, particularly regarding the role of TGD and the timeline of the multiverse’s formation. While the narrative introduces compelling ideas, its contradictions with established lore render it unreliable. The Overvoid, however, remains consistent as the ultimate supreme being, embodying a state of pure, infinite consciousness.
Some argue that the Overvoid is "afraid of imperfection of flaw." However, Morrison explained that the flaw represents an ink dropped on the page by someone, likely symbolizing a real-life person or entity. The concept of the Overvoid embodying perfect oneness only exists in fiction and does not extend to our reality. Therefore, claiming that the Overvoid cannot be the ultimate oneness because it "fears the ink" is invalid. Ultima also supports this notion, emphasizing that fictional universes can never truly interact with reality.
Given the numerous misunderstandings surrounding supreme hierarchical entities like the Source, the Presence, the Overvoid, and God, I’ll do my best to clarify and correct these misconceptions.
“Source as an Aspect of the Presence”
In modern discussions, many claim that the Source is an aspect of the Presence simply because both entities share the same position, as affirmed in Death Metal. However, the Source has evolved into the “light of creation” in the current era, a concept directly stated multiple times and indirectly confirmed in JLA #4, where the Overvoid is described as becoming the light of creation.
This shift led comic readers to notice the absence of the Presence, ultimately concluding that the Presence is the Supreme Being.
There seems to be significant confusion surrounding this topic, so let me clarify using the writers’ interpretations of the Presence and the Source.
Writers’ Perspectives on the Presence and the Source
Scott Snyder, author of Justice League 2018 and the Death Metal series, has repeatedly implied—particularly in discussions with Imaginary Axis—that the Source and the Presence are the same entity. He views the Presence as interchangeable within the greater omniverse and describes both connective energies and crisis energies as emerging from the Source/Presence.
Grant Morrison, who wrote Final Crisis and The Multiversity, interprets the Presence as a manifestation of something within the Sphere of the Gods. DC publications have acknowledged that while the Presence might be the most powerful entity in the multiverse, it may not hold that status within the greater omniverse.However, more recent affirmations suggest that the Presence is indeed the Supreme Being of the greater omniverse.
Additional external guidebooks claim that the Presence is a force beyond the Source, which created the multiverse, while the Source is described as a manifestation of something or someone. Contrasting Interpretations;
Despite these varying interpretations, a crucial point emerges:
Grant Morrison’s works suggest the Presence is a manifestation by someone, while Scott Snyder’s narratives imply the Presence reshaped Perpetua’s multiverse during her eons of imprisonment. This notion aligns with the Death of the New Gods event, where the Source descended as a yin-yang orb to shape the multiverse as an agent. Both the Source and the Presence share strikingly similar stories of manifesting and reshaping the multiverse.
In Death Metal #1, it was stated that the energies were born from both the Presence and the Source, indirectly affirming their unity. Yet, some readers argue that they are distinct entities.
DC publications further complicate matters by stating that the Presence transcends the Source, which created the multiverse, while a writer for The Unexpected suggested that the Source surpasses the Presence, shaping the Sphere of the Gods.
Spectre Vol 3 further supports the evidence. During Spectre's investigation into the mystery of the Presence, he encounters the Source, which appears as a flaming hand and unveils the true nature of God. This revelation exposes that the Source and the Presence are one and the same, both directly connected to God.
These interpretations present similar ideas but assign opposite roles to each entity.
Unified Essence: The Source and the Presence When analyzed carefully, it becomes evident that the Presence and the Source share the same position and a parallel manifestation history. Returning to Death Metal #1, Scott Snyder seems to treat the Presence as another name for the Source, or vice versa. Regardless of perspective, it becomes clear that the Source and the Presence are the same essence—one identical entity with different names.
Source and Presence as true forms :
• Source resided at the pinnacle of the cosmic hierarchy and served as the center of the greater omniverse, encompassing all multiverses generated by the unseen council by using energy. Is the one who dispatched Perpetua to create the multiverse.
• The Presence stated to be pinnacle of greater omniverse as well, is the source of energies which unseen hands used to create multiverses. Is also the one who dispatched Perpetua ( they shares the same history ).
Source and Presence as lesser manifestations :
• Source came down as yin-yang orb to keep balance the multiverse.
• The Presence manifested himself into multiverse to keep balance, various times. * They shared same functions, even in lesser manifestations )
In conclusion, they shared the same functionality and they aslo shared the same functionality when they manifested inside the multiverse to reshape.
Why the “Source” and the “Overvoid” Aren’t the Same.
In Grant Morrison’s interview with IGN, the Source and the Overvoid are described as the same entity. The Multiversity map also places them in the same position, beyond the Source Wall. This interpretation seems consistent until we examine Morrison’s perspective, where the Source is merely an aspect of God residing at the highest sphere of cosmology.
This creates a contradiction with the IGN interview, which equates the Source with the Overvoid, both being referred to as God. Some overlook Morrison’s claim that the “page” can represent God, the Source, God’s mind, or anything else you interpret it to be. Ultimately, Morrison suggests that the “page” itself is God, and the white page is a form of God. Notably, Morrison never directly refers to the Overvoid as a white page but describes the Source as a white page itself.
While one might argue that “both are pages,” Morrison explicitly defines the Overvoid as a transparent void, neither white nor dark.
Grant Morrison’s Interpretation of the Void in the 2018-2019 Green Lantern era, the concept emerged that the Source originated from the Great Darkness. Simultaneously, Morrison presented the idea that the Overvoid encompasses all light voids and represents light as an omni-awareness in a non-dualistic sense.
Additionally, the origin of GL states that only the void existed before the Source. While some might argue this void is the Great Darkness, current canon defines the Great Darkness as the absence of the Source, whereas the void preceding the Source is the self-referential void.
Kirby’s Vision and the Manifestation of the Source:
As for why Grant Morrison equates the Source with the Overvoid, it ties back to Jack Kirby’s ideas and the origins of the New Gods. The DC Encyclopedia describes the Source as a manifestation, and records from New Genesis indicate that the Source either created the universe or created itself. This supports the idea that the Source is a direct manifestation or incarnation of the Overvoid, which is why Morrison uses terms like “Overvoid/Source.” The key distinction between the two is that:
• The Overvoid is God, the infinite consciousness without definition or limitations and encompassing all.
• The Source is not God, but rather a part of God or a manifestation of the Overvoid’s will.
In Conclusion, Grant Morrison’s perspective provides clarity: while the Source and the Overvoid share similarities and connections, they are fundamentally distinct. The Overvoid is the true supreme entity, while the Source is a powerful, manifested aspect within DC cosmology.
We are in important part, which is
" Overvoid is Light of creation "
the idea of Overvoid being Light was popular during the JLI#4 which is part of dark crisis series, In this case I'd attempt to debunk this case as far as I can.
Analysis of Justice League Incarnate #4: Origins RevisitedIn Justice League Incarnate #4, DC revisits its origin story, attempting to connect the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths to the present timeline. At first glance, this narrative seems consistent, but closer examination reveals significant inconsistencies.
The Role of the Great Darkness (TGD)
The issue claims that TGD manipulated all major crises in DC’s history:
• Barbatos is described as TGD’s avatar. ( Meanwhile he's an avater of Perpetua )
• Mandrakk is said to have been corrupted by TGD. ( Meanwhile, he was corrupted by stories and he only locked himself in chain of darkness after corruption )
• All crises were allegedly orchestrated by TGD.
While this initially appears plausible, a critical moment occurs when John enters the Great Darkness. There, TGD denies responsibility for these crises, revealing instead that Pariah was brainwashed—but not by TGD.
This raises the question: Who was truly behind these events is Vandal Savage, Evidence suggests Vandal Savage, played a pivotal role. In Legion of Doom vs. Justice League #5, Vandal Savage claims the Great Darkness never existed and that he fabricated these false timelines. An intriguing detail emerges: Savage wields the power of darkness, a feat otherwise unique to Pariah. This implies that Savage manipulated Pariah to harness the power of darkness. While this theory is compelling, the evidence of JLI#4 and Great Darkness isn't playing through multiverse insufficient to confirm it definitively.
Perpetua’s Role in the Crises:
Adding complexity, Death Metal #2 by Scott Snyder explicitly states that Perpetua is the true orchestrator of every crisis. She is referred to as the “mother of all crises,” a claim supported by multiple DC publications. This directly undermines the assertion in JLI #4 that TGD was responsible for these events. Instead, it suggests that the Great Darkness had no active role in these crises, reinforcing Perpetua’s pivotal role. The Flaw in the Overvoid and Timeline Discrepancies, The flaw in the Overvoid is described in JLI #4 as a crack in the perfection of light, allegedly caused by the Great Darkness’s scream. However, this contradicts previously established events:
1. Inconsistency with the Overvoid’s Flaw:
When the Overvoid noticed the flaw on its surface, it manifested as Dax Novu to investigate the multiverse. Dax discovered life, heroes, death, and stories, but was corrupted by the flaw’s creatures.
2. Multiverse Formation Timeline:
JLI #4 suggests that the multiverse formed when the flaw appeared. Yet, established lore indicates life emerged 4 billion years in the timeline of multiverse. Which basically mean Overvoid noticed the flaw after the multiverse was formed for bilion of years but JLI#4 provide otherwise. This creates a timeline conflict, calling the reliability of JLI #4’s origin narrative into question. Like The Overvoid as the light Being Despite inconsistencies in JLI #4, it remains consistent with one core idea: light emerging from darkness. This aligns with prior origins and avoids contradictions.
Finally, we must emphasize the Overvoid’s supreme nature as described by Grant Morrison:
• The Overvoid transcends all contradictions and the three laws of thought.
• It represents non-duality and omni-awareness, encompassing all things.
• As a self-referential void, it generates the Source/Presence while remaining beyond all definitions, oppositions, or limitations.
• It stands as the ultimate state of purity, oneness, and infinite awareness.
This interpretation positions the Overvoid as the true supreme being in DC cosmology, beyond all other entities, including the Source and the Presence.
Conclusion, The origins presented in JLI #4 are riddled with inconsistencies, particularly regarding the role of TGD and the timeline of the multiverse’s formation. While the narrative introduces compelling ideas, its contradictions with established lore render it unreliable. The Overvoid, however, remains consistent as the ultimate supreme being, embodying a state of pure, infinite consciousness.
Some argue that the Overvoid is "afraid of imperfection of flaw." However, Morrison explained that the flaw represents an ink dropped on the page by someone, likely symbolizing a real-life person or entity. The concept of the Overvoid embodying perfect oneness only exists in fiction and does not extend to our reality. Therefore, claiming that the Overvoid cannot be the ultimate oneness because it "fears the ink" is invalid. Ultima also supports this notion, emphasizing that fictional universes can never truly interact with reality.
