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Minor Touhou Downgrade

Diabul

Diabul

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I'll keep this short. Fairies profile uses Cirno to set the best feats regular fairies can pull off. PMiSS, an in-universe safety manual written for regular humans, states that fairies in Touhou are generally weaker than humans. The current profiles say that since Cirno is a fairy, other fairies and humans should scale to her.

The problem being, there is actually a very huge gap between a random fairy and Cirno. Firstly, PMiSS advises humans to not approach Cirno, let alone fight her, so there is not an anti-feat here. The main thing setting Cirno apart from other fairies is, in GFW, Cirno effortlessly butchers her way through dozens, if not hundreds of fairies without a break.

In conclusion, regular fairies are not comparable to Cirno by any means. Every “at most” stat in Fairies profile coming from Cirno should be replaced with Small Building level through this calc.

This change only affects Kosuzu and Akyuu, who both should have Building level for their physical stats through upscaling from Fairies.

Agree: 6 (Deidalius, Topaz404, Quibster, Speedblitzer50, Pixy, Planck69)
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
Last edited:
Now hol' up just a second, there might be other scans to keep them all generally in the Tier 8 range (around 8-C). It would be best to look them over before just downgrading based off of one little thing (which i do agree with what Diabul is saying, but there are other feats in general)
 
Alright, duly apologize for making ya wait so long- but i do have scans that should generally keep the fodders in tier 8 (or very high in 9-A). Anyways, lets start

For the first scan, we see a fairy in IoM&IoE creating a localized rainstorm around Kourindou (for the lols, one would presume), which disperses as soon as the fairy is killed, and then something similar happens in CoLA. Sure. We dont have the actual size of the storm pinned down (given the context, dunno how you could), but we at least have a general idea of how big Kourindou is to help calc things
Imgur Scan, Rainstorm Calc

This second one is simpler- The Fairies of Light get struck by lightning while flying around in the air. Pretty simple calc here, considering that since it was midair, they wouldve been struck by the full force of the bolt
Imgur Scan, General Lightning Feats.

So yeah- agreed with what the OP has to say, but there are these supporting feats to not totally cripple the fodder tier into Tier 10 purgatory
 
I don't think fodders should get affected by this. I don't think Cirno has ever been potrayed as stronger than average youkai. Going strictly from the games and stages, Cirno is always on the weaker side. I used GFW to show Cirno easily beats other fairies, and we can use any game to see how easily Cirno is defeated.

In DDC for example, Wakasagihime, Kagerou, and Sekibanki are much stronger than Cirno who is just a stage 1 midboss.

Same in PCB. She is just a midboss that gets obliterated in about 9 seconds (Really. I bashed her head with Marisa just now) while Chen and Letty are fully fledged stage bosses. And Cirno was supposedly at her strongest there since it was winter.
 
Deidalius said:
does that just leave out the weather manipulation scaling?
Click to expand...
Unless i missed something, it generally shouldnt? The rainstorm around Kourindou was consistent until the fairy was dealt with, and lightning bolts are usually just quick bursts of energy.

I mean its not like this is affecting much regardless, sure the fodder Fairies plus Kosuzu/Akyuu are down to Human level, but Cirno should be fine as is
 
Topaz404 said:
Alright, duly apologize for making ya wait so long- but i do have scans that should generally keep the fodders in tier 8 (or very high in 9-A). Anyways, lets start

For the first scan, we see a fairy in IoM&IoE creating a localized rainstorm around Kourindou (for the lols, one would presume), which disperses as soon as the fairy is killed, and then something similar happens in CoLA. Sure. We dont have the actual size of the storm pinned down (given the context, dunno how you could), but we at least have a general idea of how big Kourindou is to help calc things
Imgur Scan, Rainstorm Calc

This second one is simpler- The Fairies of Light get struck by lightning while flying around in the air. Pretty simple calc here, considering that since it was midair, they wouldve been struck by the full force of the bolt
Imgur Scan, General Lightning Feats.

So yeah- agreed with what the OP has to say, but there are these supporting feats to not totally cripple the fodder tier into Tier 10 purgatory
Click to expand...
I see, by the standards of this wiki, the average fairy should scale to the storm creation feat, unless the fairies that made those storms are stronger than the average fairy or something.

I think we can all agree that the average fairy and the fairies of light shouldn't scale to Cirno, right?

I am unsure about the lightning feat though. Adam said that they don't get you to building level anymore or something. Id like to see an accepted calc about it to see where it scales.

Though, isn't a storm creation only around koufindou a lowball? The cola texts imply they make storms in general, not just around small buildings. Shouldn't we scale that to the size of an average storm or something?
 
Deidalius said:
I see, by the standards of this wiki, the average fairy should scale to the storm creation feat, unless the fairies that made those storms are stronger than the average fairy or something.

I think we can all agree that the average fairy and the fairies of light shouldn't scale to Cirno, right?

I am unsure about the lightning feat though. Adam said that they don't get you to building level anymore or something. Id like to see an accepted calc about it to see where it scales.

Though, isn't a storm creation only around koufindou a lowball? The cola texts imply they make storms in general, not just around small buildings. Shouldn't we scale that to the size of an average storm or something?
Click to expand...
From what's said, the fairy that made the storms was a regular old Rain Fairy, so if it was created by some random ol fairy- then by all means, the average fairy should be able to scale to that kinda storm, but scaling to Fairies of Light/Cirno? Ehhhhhhh

And according to the rainstorm calc, the fairy did it around Kourindou only most likely to do what fairies do best- pull pranks and generally be annoying
 
Sorry for the late response. I was at work and I forgot about VSBW for a moment. Yall should assume every time I go away its because of that or because i felt lazy.
anyway

Topaz404 said:
And according to the rainstorm calc, the fairy did it around Kourindou only most likely to do what fairies do best- pull pranks and generally be annoying
Click to expand...
Scratch what I said, I misread the text and thought it meant a storm in general, not an isolated storm around Kourindo-

The Building level calc seems pretty valid and reasonable.
Topaz404 said:
From what's said, the fairy that made the storms was a regular old Rain Fairy, so if it was created by some random ol fairy- then by all means, the average fairy should be able to scale to that kinda storm, but scaling to Fairies of Light/Cirno? Ehhhhhhh
Click to expand...
If that's the case then all the fodder below Cirno, should cap at Building level, and their scaling should change to that.

From what I know, that would basically just mean the average fairies and the three fairies of light are at that level. I don't think the fairies of light should downscale from Cirno.

@Diabul I realized your CRT doesn't mention the three fairies of light, just average fairies and the humans. But what do you think of the three fairies of light not scaling to Cirno's feats and just upscaling the average fairies?

And what do you think of changing the characters mentioned in your CRT to scaling to Building level instead?
 
Current profiles of Three Fairies say that they are likely 8-B for being able to fight Cirno, I think that's okay. As I mentioned, regular fairies can't last even a few seconds against Cirno while fairies who we know are strong like Daiyousei and Lily can fight off Cirno for a while. Their ratings should stay.

As for Building level calc, I suppose I can add it to the OP. Was it accepted though? If not, I'm guessing we need a different thread for a calc.
 
Topaz404 said:
This second one is simpler- The Fairies of Light get struck by lightning while flying around in the air. Pretty simple calc here, considering that since it was midair, they wouldve been struck by the full force of the bolt
Imgur Scan, General Lightning Feats.
Click to expand...
Us irl humans can take lightning too, so not a good example.
Diabul said:
Was it accepted though? If not, I'm guessing we need a different thread for a calc.
Click to expand...
It was not accepted yet, you'll have to ask around to CGMs to evalutate it.
 
Topaz404 said:
And how many should i talk to for their opinions? There some form of minimum you need?
Click to expand...
You really need just one approval (if there are not other CGMs disagreeing), but try to ask to a lot because there's always the possibility of being ignored because of lack of interest in evalutating.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You really need just one approval (if there are not other CGMs disagreeing), but try to ask to a lot because there's always the possibility of being ignored because of lack of interest in evalutating.
Click to expand...
Ive asked Bambu and Psycho as of now, and ill ask others later today
 
Deidalius said:
I heard that this is tougher because the fairy took the lightning mid air so the ground wasnt there to spread the impact
Click to expand...
Lightning by its own definition is electricity spreading through air. It does on the ground because it's the nearest place with the least amount of resistance, but air also is a conductor (hence why it exists in the first place).

Some airplanes in fact do have a system of spreading lightning efficiently so that it spreads away in air without dealing excessive damage to the internal structures.
 
Update on the calc, Mr. Bambu made a comment accepting the low-end of the calc. Assuming Psycho doesnt disagree, it would appear that its cool
 
Alright, so....would this mean that fodder tier would be around (Fodder fairy creating the storm -> Three Fairies of Light -> Kosuzu/Akyuu)?
 
StrymULTRA said:
If they have evidence to be stronger than the average fairy they'd be 8-C too, yes.
Click to expand...
I'd have to ask/look around, but generally named characters should be more powerful then some random unnamed fodder- if i get something (or someone else gets something), im sure its gonna be shared

Otherwise? 9-A+/8-C seems to be the general range for fodder tiers now. Fine by me
 
Topaz404 said:
I'd have to ask/look around, but generally named characters should be more powerful then some random unnamed fodder- if i get something (or someone else gets something), im sure its gonna be shared
Click to expand...
Not really. Being a named character does not mean you're above randoms, as that usually happens only in Battle Shonen stuff, something that Touhou is not as it's not really that combat-focused, we aren't going to assume that the important characters of a setting that is usually just Tier 10 are all stronger than a random human because of that.
 
Topaz404 said:
Alright, so....would this mean that fodder tier would be around (Fodder fairy creating the storm -> Three Fairies of Light -> Kosuzu/Akyuu)?
Click to expand...
I still think Three Fairies should stay as they are. They can fight off Cirno for a good while in contrast to Kosuzu and Akyuu who don't fight at all.

Adding the calc to OP.
 
Looks okay.

Beyond that, I do feel as though Cirno's spree in GFW should be listed somewhere on her profile, if not her AP section. She also did weather down a held-back Marisa in a spellcard duel.
 
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