Minor Sonic CRT (OVA and Promotional Comic)

[Maverick_Zero_X]

OVA​

Sonic’s base speed rating is listed as Subsonic (75.236681 m/s) while his Super Peel Out supposedly amplifies his speed to Massively Hypersonic (121,840.767 m/s), meaning his SPO is 1619x greater than his base speed. Of course this gargantuan gap isn’t at all supported by the film.

• Tails, who is scaled to Sonic’s base speed, moved in tandem with Sonic while he was using the Super Peel Out, arriving in Robotropolis closely behind Sonic. If Tails were 1619x slower he’d have been utterly left in the dust
• Hyper Metal Sonic revving his engine is treated as a speed amp that provides an equal speed to Sonic’s Super Peel Out. However, Sonic explicitly reacted and jumped out of the way when Metal Sonic charged at him after revving his engine without the use of his SPO, concretely proving Sonic’s base speed should be MHS (at least Reactions-wise).
  • Sonic does this again later in the fight while in midair (where it’s impossible to use his SPO as noted by his profile)

So overall, Sonic’s base speed should be Massively Hypersonic, being at least somewhat in league with his Super Peel Out and Metal Sonic’s “Revving” which honestly might just be ways to accelerate to top speed on a dime rather than actual speed amps.

Promotional Comic speed​

Speed: Varies from Subsonic+ for normal speed (Mach 0.81428; Smashed 3 badniks before the pieces fell to the ground) to at least Transonic when revving up (Mach 1.00356; Continued increasing his speed till he accidentally broke the Treadmill by smashing the Sound Barrier. Implied he never tried to speed himself up that fast before as it turned him blue)

He should just have a flat Transonic rating. Sonic’s speed doesn’t vary nor is “revving up” something that amplifies his speed, it’s just acceleration. He’s not “increasing his speed”, it just takes him time to reach his top speed.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Looks good to me. I agree

A difference of 1619x is ridiculously funny in retrospect lol

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

looks good

 

[ElixirBlue]

Of course this gargantuan gap isn’t at all supported by the film.

Huh, what about the blitz Metal did on Sonic's regular Peel Out? In what way would the OVA need show to support there being a gap?

He should just have a flat Transonic rating. Sonic’s speed doesn’t vary nor is “revving up” something that amplifies his speed, it’s just acceleration. He’s not “increasing his speed”, it just takes him time to reach his top speed.

The Subsonic+ should stay. The "revving" up shows it takes time to reach Transonic & Sonic preforming the Subsonic+ calc and racing Dr. Robotnik was by preforming a dash from standstill. There was no time for acceleration.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Huh, what about the blitz Metal did on Sonic's regular Peel Out?

You mean this gif? I don’t see that as a blitz, Metal just got in front of Sonic. Even if took that scene as Sonic being massively slower than Metal it’s immediately contradicted by the next scene showing Sonic reacting to Metal Sonic fairly frequently.

Also, what’s the difference between the “regular Peel Out” and the Super Peel Out?

In what way would the OVA need to be support there to be being a gap?

The OVA would need to show their base speeds are completely and utterly eclipsed by the SPO/Revving for that gap to make sense, but the 3 examples in the OP show the gap isn’t that wide at all.

The Subsonic+ should stay. The "revving" up shows it takes time to reach Transonic & Sonic preforming the Subsonic+ calc and racing Dr. Robotnik was a dash from standstill.

But we simply don’t list lower speed ratings for needing time to accelerate to top speed. Listing Subsonic implies Sonic’s base movement and reaction speed is Subsonic and then he somehow amps himself to Transonic.

 

[ElixirBlue]

You mean this gif? I don’t see that as a blitz, Metal just got in front of Sonic. Even if took that scene as Sonic being massively slower than Metal it’s immediately contradicted by the next scene showing Sonic reacting to Metal Sonic fairly frequently.

Context, Metal was standing in front of Sonic. Sonic sped away from Metal to dash towards Dr. Robotnik. Metal blitz that speed from Circle Feet.

Also, what’s the difference between the “regular Peel Out” and the Super Peel Out?

It was the only scene in the entire movie Sonic moved his feet in the shape of a circle. And it was the only scene Metal blitz Sonic.

But we simply don’t list lower speed ratings for needing time to accelerate to top speed. Listing Subsonic implies Sonic’s base movement and reaction speed is Subsonic and then he somehow amps himself to Transonic.

In terms of the Promo Comic, there is no correlation Sonic's Travel Speed and Reaction speed. Sonic only runs in one place and in a straight line while going all out. Against the Badniks (which is the calc), Sonic was explicit on holding back. Sonic wouldn't have held back for Porky but there's no evidence Sonic can reach Transonic from a Standstill in Promo.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Context, Metal was standing in front of Sonic. Sonic sped away from Metal to dash towards Dr. Robotnik. Metal blitz that speed from Circle Feet.

So Metal’s faster, cool. Doesn’t support the 1619x gap, or refute any of the examples I brought up in the OP…

It was the only scene in the entire movie Sonic moved his feet in the shape of a circle. And it was the only scene Metal blitz Sonic.

This doesn’t explain how the “Peel Out” and Super Peel Out are distinct techniques. The distinction sounds totally made up.

In terms of the Promo Comic, there is no correlation Sonic's Travel Speed and Reaction speed. Sonic only runs in one place and in a straight line while going all out. Against the Badniks (which is the calc), Sonic was explicit on holding back.

Sonic’s reaction speed scales to his running speed by default unless he uncontrollably crashes into objects.

Simply not using his full speed sometimes doesn’t give a lower rating or lower his reaction speed.

 

[ElixirBlue]

So Metal’s faster, cool. Doesn’t support the 1619x gap

This argument doesn’t make sense. How do non-Vs debating animators support a Vs debating calc gap beyond blitzs?

This doesn’t explain how the “Peel Out” and Super Peel Out are distinct techniques. The distinction sounds totally made up.

It’s a different technique because Sonic isn’t running the same way he does in every other scene when he goes faster than his base speed. And it’s the only scene he got blitz.

Making up would be claiming that the move he used to get blitzed by looks like a figure8.

Sonic’s reaction speed scales to his running speed by default unless he uncontrollably crashes into objects.

He in a straight line after Dr. Robotnik. The gap between his calc speed and Transonic is roughly Mach .2 and he sees what’s coming up.

Simply not using his full speed sometimes doesn’t give a lower rating or lower his reaction speed.

The lower speed rating was primarily for Dr. Robotnik’s scaling.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This argument doesn’t make sense. How do non-Vs debating animators support a Vs debating calc gap beyond blitzs?

Elixir, you’re dodging my actual arguments. I showed three examples that proves the cast’s base speed is comparable to the Super Peel Out/Revving.

Your example of Metal “blitzing” the “Peel Out” simply demonstrates that Metal Sonic is swifter than Sonic. Sure, but that doesn’t prove Sonic is incomparable. I’m arguing he’s comparable, Elixir.

It’s a different technique because Sonic isn’t running the same way he does in every other scene when he goes faster than his base speed. And it’s the only scene he got blitz.

So because his running animation in that scene is a bit different you came to the conclusion that Sonic used an unnamed inferior variant of the Super Peel Out one time and never again?

He hardly even got “blitzed”, Metal just got ahead of him, and the next scene proves Sonic is comparable, a point you seem to be dodging.

He in a straight line after Dr. Robotnik. The gap between his calc speed and Transonic is roughly Mach .2 and he sees what’s coming up.

Relevance?

The lower speed rating was primarily for Dr. Robotnik’s scaling.

It’s just one character, it’s easier to just link the Subsonic calc on Robotnik’s page rather than pulling a Variable tier out of nowhere.

“Subsonic (Can keep up with a casual Sonic [insert calc here])”

 

[ElixirBlue]

Elixir, you’re dodging my actual arguments. I showed three examples that proves the cast’s base speed is comparable to the Super Peel Out/Revving.

Your example of Metal “blitzing” the “Peel Out” simply demonstrates that Metal Sonic is swifter than Sonic. Sure, but that doesn’t prove Sonic is incomparable. I’m arguing he’s comparable, Elixir.

So because his running animation in that scene is a bit different you came to the conclusion that Sonic used an unnamed inferior variant of the Super Peel Out one time and never again?

He hardly even got “blitzed”, Metal just got ahead of time, and the next scene proves Sonic is comparable, a point you seem to be dodging.

To be honest, I was going to do Preception Manipulation upgrade for Metal and Sonic but had forgot. Because of the Afterimages, I would get rid of the note that Sonic can only increase his Speed with the Super Peel Out. The Afterimages battle proves they can increase their speed in the heat of battle to blitz out of the preception of the other.

Relevance?

Can't be "uncontrollably crashing into objects" if he is only traveling in a straight and seeing ahead of time the objects coming at him.

It’s just one character, it’s easier to just link the Subsonic calc on Robotnik’s page rather than pulling a Variable tier out of nowhere.

“Subsonic (Can keep up with a casual Sonic [insert calc here])”

Sure, I agree variable tier doesn't fit Promo Sonic, even if its a lower speed. Although, not certain about scaling it to reaction speed for another reason.

Remember the point of Transonic for the Promo Comic. Sonic never went that fast for Transonic before and didn't know he could reach those speed. Evidence? Transonic speed is why he turned blue. The Transonic rating is the first time Sonic went that fast and he surprised by the result. However, there isn't enough evidence to say his reaction speed increased with him.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Are you aware the term Speed Blitz means to move so fast your opponent is incapable of perceiving your movements rather simply being faster than them? Genuine question.

To be honest, I was going to do Preception Manipulation upgrade for Metal and Sonic but had forgot. Because of the Afterimages, I would get rid of the note that Sonic can only increase his Speed with the Super Peel Out. The Afterimages battle proves they can increase their speed in the heat of battle to blitz out of the preception of the other.

They weren’t blitzing each other though, it was just a back and forth. The fact that they’re reacting to and dodging each other means no blitzing is happening here.

That said I’d find it strange to consider an Afterimage Creation feat equivalent to a speed amp.

Can't be "uncontrollably crashing into objects" if he is only traveling in a straight and seeing ahead of time the objects coming at him.

When angered and determined to catch the Egg Mobile Sonic showed to be able to make sharp turns and react to and evade Orbinauts at super speed.

Sure, I agree variable tier doesn't fit Promo Sonic, even if its a lower speed. Although, not certain about scaling it to reaction speed for another reason.

Remember the point of Transonic for the Promo Comic. Sonic never went that fast for Transonic before and didn't know he could reach those speed. Evidence? Transonic speed is why he turned blue. The Transonic rating is the first time Sonic went that fast and he surprised by the result. However, there isn't enough evidence to say his reaction speed increased with him.

I can agree Sonic was slower before going blue, but I think the scan above is proof his reflexes are proportional to his movement speed.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Are you aware the term Speed Blitz means to move so fast your opponent is incapable of perceiving your movements rather simply being faster than them? Genuine question.

Ok, thats what I have been saying?

They weren’t blitzing each other though, it was just a back and forth. The fact that they’re reacting to and dodging each other means no blitzing is happening here.

That said I’d find it strange to consider an Afterimage Creation feat equivalent to a speed amp.

Afterimages isn't a power OVA Sonic produces like Hyper Sonic and they weren't perceiving each other's movements at times during the Afterimages. Sonic's Afterimage reaction is done by speed alone and Metal is equal in stat and ability to Sonic. Metal attacked Sonic and Sonic dodged via Speed. For him to do so and Metal not perceiving it till it landed on nothing, would be Sonic increasing his speed mid-fight to blitz Metal's perception.

Sonic even states at the end of their Afterimages fight he didn't perceive where Metal flew off to, despite focusing on him.

When angered and determined to catch the Egg Mobile Sonic showed to be able to make sharp turns and react to and evade Orbinauts at super speed.

Yeah, and he lost the Egg Mobile when he did so, likely because he slowed down.

I can agree Sonic was slower before going blue, but I think the scan above is proof his reflexes are proportional to his movement speed.

Possibly, but those movements lost him track of the Egg Mobile.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Afterimages isn't a power OVA Sonic produces like Hyper Sonic and they weren't perceiving each other's movements at times during the Afterimages. Sonic's Afterimage reaction is done by speed alone and Metal is equal in stat and ability to Sonic. Metal attacked Sonic and Sonic dodged via Speed. For him to do so and Metal not perceiving it till it landed on nothing, would be Sonic increasing his speed mid-fight to blitz Metal's perception.

It feels like a strech to say Sonic and Metal were practically invisible to each other throughout this exchange yet simultaneously were able to dodge each other’s attacks. What if them constantly vanishing is just a stylized animation to convey that the two are fighting at super speeds?

Also note it’s perfectly possible to dodge a blow from a character with equal speed to your own.

Yeah, and he lost the Egg Mobile when he did so, likely because he slowed down.

No, because he lost the Egg Mobile because the vehicle has the advantage of being able to fly directly over obstacles while he has to actively dodge and swerve out the way. Sonic reacting to those obstacle mid-dash instead of crashing headfirst into them means his reactions are comparable to his movement.

 

[Theuser789]

I agree with OP, always felt this was headcanon put in pages. Is there any proof the Super Peel Out even amps speed in the OVA?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This argument doesn’t make sense. How do non-Vs debating animators support a Vs debating calc gap beyond blitzs?

I am sorry, I was reading through this, and this point just sounds very weird.
They don't have to adapt to us, we have to adapt to them, to the plot, the narrative, the feats, how the characters are portrayed. These take omnipotent priority over fan calculations.

If the OVA showed that a ~2000x gap is utterly impossible beyond any reasonable doubt, our calcs means nothing, we should change our ratings accordingly by either downgrading the SPO, or downscaling Sonic's base speed from it... I know you're not really supporting this argument anymore, but the idea that our ratings don't need to be in line with the show itself seems like something you believe in...

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Anyway, I agree with the OP

 

[ElixirBlue]

I’ll respond to points in a bit. Gotta make Gifs.

If the OVA showed that a ~2000x gap is utterly impossible beyond any reasonable doubt, our calcs means nothing,

The OVA doesn’t show its utterly impossible as they do show blitzs between Speed differences. Others believe it’s impossible because the Vs debating calcs shows how wide the gap is.

I agree with OP, always felt this was headcanon put in pages. Is there any proof the Super Peel Out even amps speed in the OVA?

Yes. Tails is relative to Sonic’s Base speed, shown multiple times through the OVA. Metal Robotnik almost catches up to Tails as he is trying to get away from Metal Robotnik and Sonic uses the Super Peel Out in order to recuse Tails/escape Metal Robotnik.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Got more on the way, but I still need to make the Gifs. I’m going to use the gif I have from Tails’ note.

Tails, who is scaled to Sonic’s base speed, moved in tandem with Sonic while he was using the Super Peel Out, arriving in Robotropolis closely behind Sonic. If Tails were 1619x slower he’d have been utterly left in the dust

There is evidence Sonic doesn’t use the maximum speed of the Super Peel Out consistently in the movie.

When Sonic and Tails ran from Metal Robotnik, Sonic is using the Super Peel Out and Tails is flying alongside him. But as Metal Robotnik caught up and is about to grab Tails, Sonic slows down, grab Tails’s hand, and uses Super Peel Out again to out speed Metal Robotnik, despite Metal Robotnik almost catching up while Sonic was using the Super Peel Out.

A clear example of Sonic not consistently using the max speed of the Super Peel Out at times in the OVA.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Convenient you responded when I woke up a couple of minutes ago, neat

[snip]

It should be noted Metal Robotnik’s missiles intercepted/got ahead of Sonic while he was using SPO, blowing up a bridge before Sonic could cross it, so the cast reacting to Metal Robotnik’s missiles with their base speed is further prove their base speed scales to SPO reactions-wise.

Sonic was panting and his shoes were even shown steaming/red hot after the chase, showing he must’ve seriously exerted himself.

 

[ElixirBlue]

It should be noted Metal Robotnik’s missiles intercepted/got ahead of Sonic while he was using SPO, blowing up a bridge before Sonic could cross it, so the cast reacting to Metal Robotnik’s missiles with their base speed is further prove their base speed scales to SPO reactions-wise.

Again, the missile scaling further proves my point Sonic does not consistently uses his max speed in the OVA.

Yes, the missiles passed Sonic using the SPO with Tails at hand.

But Sonic then keeps ahead of those same missiles tracking him with the Spin Attack he Afterimage battle Metal with

And we know Sonic outsped them, since only 3 of the 4 blew up and Sonic is next seen riding the 4th one and hitting Metal Robotnik with it

So...

Sonic with the Super Peel Out equals Tails < Metal Robotnik catches up to Tails, making Metal Robotnik "faster" than the Super Peel Out < Sonic with the Super Peel Out outspeeds Metal Robotnik < Metal Robotnik's Missiles is "faster" than the Super Peel Out < Sonic's Spin Dash outspeeds those Missiles =<<? Sonic's Super Peel Out does the MH calc.

Sonic was panting and his shoes were even shown steaming/red hot after the chase, showing he must’ve seriously exerted himself.

Quick run through on the movie, it seems like its the only time in the movie Sonic tries to going to a complete stop from using the Super Peel Out. Dunno how it collates with other examples of the Super Peel Out.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yeah, proves Sonic scales to the Super Peel Out

Sonic with the Super Peel Out equals Tails < Metal Robotnik catches up to Tails, making Metal Robotnik "faster" than the Super Peel Out < Sonic with the Super Peel Out outspeeds Metal Robotnik < Metal Robotnik's Missiles is "faster" than the Super Peel Out < Sonic's Spin Dash outspeeds those Missiles =<<? Sonic's Super Peel Out does the MH calc.

Nah, nice attempt at a strawman but I made it expressly clear a couple comments ago I’m arguing they’re comparable/downscale from the Super Peel Out, not that they’re equal/faster than the fastest thing alive.

Elixir, you realize you’re arguing Sonic was using exactly 0.0617500061% of his speed when trying to escape Metal Robotnik, despite him wanting to escape and the chase leaving him exhausted? Do you even listen to yourself?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Elixir, you realize you’re arguing Sonic was using exactly 0.0617500061% of his speed when trying to escape Metal Robotnik, despite him wanting to escape and the chase leaving him exhausted? Do you even listen to yourself?

It is what happened. He moved faster by an unknown degree when he was handling the second barrage of missiles then when he was trying to escape with Tails from Metal Robotnik's first missile barrage. He held back, despite wanting to escape Metal Robotnik with Tails.

Nah, nice attempt at a strawman but I made it expressly clear a couple comments ago I’m arguing they’re comparable/downscale from the Super Peel Out, not that they’re equal/faster than the fastest thing alive.

Right. My point is Sonic keeps holding back his speed in the OVA for unknown reasons. Super Peel Out was only comparable to the Base Cast speed when Sonic was shown using slower speed feats then later. :V

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Definetly agree with OP. We already don't give ratings for holding back, so even if Sonic was somehow holding back his speed to 1/10000000th of his true speed, he would have MHS listed either way. And I'm not really convinced that's even the case.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It is what happened. He moved faster by an unknown degree when he was handling the second barrage of missiles then when he was trying to escape with Tails from Metal Robotnik's first missile barrage. He held back, despite wanting to escape Metal Robotnik with Tails.

Sonic was holding back to Subsonic, less than 1% of his top speed, yet exhausted himself? Doesn’t make sense.

Super Peel Out was only comparable to the Base Cast speed when Sonic was shown using slower speed feats then later. :V

Doesn’t matter, that’s like saying Metal Robotnik shouldn’t be scaled to the mountain collapse because it happened later. There’s nothing indicating he suddenly got 1619x faster later in the film.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with the OP. Everything seems correct.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I reckon 2 staff agreements + an extensive discussion is enough, I’ll go ahead.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

And I'll close the thread then.