Minor Maou Gakuin rework

[Mr. Bambu]

Could you post that argument here?

 

[Fixxed]

Are healing can make someone alive again???

I think healing just heal some part of body, not bring back someone from absolute destruction of body

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Are healing can make someone alive again???

I think healing just heal some part of body, not bring back someone from absolute destruction of body

From my understanding, Healing is very close to regeneration.

The main difference between Healing and Regeneration with the current standard, Is that Healing Is not passive, and can be used on others and not only oneself. (Healing works on the same system as both ressurection and regeneration)

And we have seen that Argonemt can be used on oneself and someone else after casting it. We also know that it is not passive.

So that is why it qualifies for healing. I hope i explained it good enough, sadly I have never been a good debater or good at English

 

[Godsatoshi23]

So that is why it qualifies for healing. I hope i explained it good enough, sadly I have never been a good debater or good at English

Resurrection is also not passive and can be used on others, then why not that? And why specifically healing? Can you please elaborate on that?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Could you post that argument here?

Here's the link the OP wants to nerf high godly regen because, for some really weird reason, they think Agronemt is not passive. Even though it literally says it is passive? It activates instantly after Anos destroys Avos's source he argued that Revide was used even though

1. There's no proof of that being the case
2. All subtext in the chapter points to that not being the case (Avos literally thinks she's won due to getting the 1 up on Anos after stealing Venuz and has no idea that Muave eyes is a thing or that it can negate Venuz's order)

If "Avos Dilhevia's source shattered, but the agronemt magic circle in her body immediately activated and regenerated her source" is not enough proof of it being passive then we might as well rework 99.9% of series that have similar, and sometimes even less direct scans.
OP has yet to respond to this in the maou general discussion thread or here

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Automatic is not passive. You can have automatic resurrection.

 

[Robo432343]

Where is OP's response to the Agronemt thing

 

[Reiner04]

Automatic is not passive. You can have automatic resurrection.

Kinda is. If some ability works always on its own w/o u need to consciously activate it or anything like such. It is passive.

 

[Dereck03]

Only the 1st time you use agronemt to regenerate you need a pre-cast. The rest you can see that simply agronemt already has an instant effect the moment the source is destroyed.

We see it with Avos, the moment her source was destroyed simply the spell activates by itself. (Scan)

We also see it when Anos destroyed Nosgalia's source and instantly regenerated it using his own experience with agronemt as a point of origin so he didn't need a pre-cast using rivide, etc. (Scan) And in case you're wondering why Nosgalia didn't use agronemt to regenerate, the gods don't need that spell to do it since they do it naturally, plus his regeneration was being negated that's why Anos had to revive him.

Automatic is not passive. You can have automatic resurrection.

Ingall is explicitly classified as a resurrection, while Agronemt is not.

So taking this as a basis it is correct to say that Anos already has historically the basis to regenerate instantly if his source is destroyed, we saw it when he fought Jerga and explains how he did it.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Automatic is not passive.

Jesus Christ, this can't be real. Do you not know the definition of automatic?

I'm genuinely shocked dude

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Here's the link the OP wants to nerf high godly regen because, for some really weird reason, they think Agronemt is not passive. Even though it literally says it is passive? It activates instantly after Anos destroys Avos's source he argued that Revide was used even though

1. There's no proof of that being the case
2. All subtext in the chapter points to that not being the case (Avos literally thinks she's won due to getting the 1 up on Anos after stealing Venuz and has no idea that Muave eyes is a thing or that it can negate Venuz's order)

If "Avos Dilhevia's source shattered, but the agronemt magic circle in her body immediately activated and regenerated her source" is not enough proof of it being passive then we might as well rework 99.9% of series that have similar, and sometimes even less direct scans.
OP has yet to respond to this in the maou general discussion thread or here

The argument is that the spell has to be cast before hand, as a sort of precaution that only activates upon the conditions being met (in this case, dying to High-Godly damage).

This argument is not mutually exclusive to the text provided: in fact, the phrasing of "automatically activated" seems to even vaguely support it, since that would be a very weird phrasing for something that's passive.

The scans in the OP also directly support the position of the OP: this is an ability that needs to be set up beforehand. It doesn't appear to be a passive.

I'm still fine with changing it to Resurrection.

 

[Deagonx]

If "Avos Dilhevia's source shattered, but the agronemt magic circle in her body immediately activated and regenerated her source" is not enough proof of it being passive then we might as well rework 99.9% of series that have similar, and sometimes even less direct scans.

The word "immediately" isn't a sufficient defeater here, as she could have intentionally activated the spell as soon as she died. You're right that many profiles get the healing/regen distinction.

We also see it when Anos destroyed Nosgalia's source and instantly regenerated it using his own experience with agronemt as a point of origin so he didn't need a pre-cast using rivide, etc. (Scan)

This scan appears to demonstrate that he says it out loud to cast it, not that it occurs by itself.

In any case, I agree with the OP. Healing works better here.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

We proably intereppted this scan very differently,

We see it with Avos, the moment her source was destroyed simply the spell activates by itself. (Scan)

This scans shows that the magic circle within her activated the moment the her source shattered.

From my point of view, It seems like the magic circle within her was already their before, and was only activated when her source shattered. Rather then instantly being casted and activated the moment her source was shattered, as it was stated by Anos, that "Agronemt" can't be casted by whose soul has already disapeared, but it can still be activated.

We also see it when Anos destroyed Nosgalia's source and instantly regenerated it using his own experience with agronemt as a point of origin so he didn't need a pre-cast using rivide, etc. (Scan) And in case you're wondering why Nosgalia didn't use agronemt to regenerate, the gods don't need that spell to do it since they do it naturally, plus his regeneration was being negated that's why Anos had to revive him.

(I actually used this scan in this CRT proposal)

Either way, this scan only further proves that it is healing and Not regeneration. We see Anos cast Agronemt to heal Nosalgia's source. Natrually, Anos dosen't need to use Rivide here since he needs to heal Nosalgia in the Present, not the future. I am pretty sure I mentioned the Rivide step could be skipped if needed to be used in the present instead of the future. Also, healing can be used on oneself and others, while regeneration can only be used on oneself.

 

[Dereck03]

This scan appears to demonstrate that he says it out loud to cast it, not that it occurs by itself.

I hope you read what I said that it was Anos who did it and not the user who had his source destroyed.

in case you're wondering why Nosgalia didn't use agronemt to regenerate, the gods don't need that spell to do it since they do it naturally, plus his regeneration was being negated that's why Anos had to revive him.

 

[Dereck03]

This scans shows that the magic circle within her activated the moment the her source shattered.

From my point of view, It seems like the magic circle within her was already their before, and was only activated when her source shattered. Rather then instantly being casted and activated the moment her source was shattered.

Her source was regenerated after being shattered. And I will tell you why I think your POV is incorrect, because agronemt was cast apparently automatically without the need of a previous cast to regenerate the destroyed source. Moreover, you have no proof that the magic circle was there previously, since it is only activated if the source is destroyed.

as it was stated by Anos, that "Agronemt" can't be casted by whose soul has already disapeared, but it can still be activated.

A bit irrelevant since the soul has nothing to do here, moreover the source was already destroyed and agronemt regenerated it at the same moment it happened.

(I actually used this scan in this CRT proposal)

Either way, this scan only further proves that it is healing and Not regeneration. We see Anos cast Agronemt to heal Nosalgia's source. Natrually, Anos dosen't need to use Rivide here since he needs to heal Nosalgia in the Present, not the future. I am pretty sure I mentioned the Rivide step could be skipped if needed to be used in the present instead of the future.

Here you are wrong in many things, first Anos did not " heal" Nosgalia's source, Venuzdonoa "destroyed" Nosgalia's source and Anos regenerated it and left it at 10% of its usual capacity. And the last thing you said makes no sense since agronemt works the same way for all users.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The argument is that the spell has to be cast before hand, as a sort of precaution that only activates upon the conditions being met (in this case, dying to High-Godly damage).

This argument is not mutually exclusive to the text provided: in fact, the phrasing of "automatically activated" seems to even vaguely support it, since that would be a very weird phrasing for something that's passive.

The scans in the OP also directly support the position of the OP: this is an ability that needs to be set up beforehand. It doesn't appear to be a passive.

I'm still fine with changing it to Resurrection.

There is no proof of her having used it beforehand, if she did there would be mention of it. Or better yet a literal visual of her doing so in the anime, spoiler alert there is none. Once again, that is an assumption without any remotely solid proof or even evidence behind it. Meanwhile, we have not only the scan clearly stating that the magic circle immediately activated after her source was destroyed but even proof from Dereck's post clearly explaining that Agronemt activates passively after source destruction. Unless OP or anyone who agrees with the thread provides proof, at the end of the day it'll just be a false claim

 

[Godsatoshi23]

From my point of view, It seems like the magic circle within her was already their before, and was only activated when her source shattered. Rather then instantly being casted and activated the moment her source was shattered, as it was stated by Anos, that "Agronemt" can't be casted by whose soul has already disapeared, but it can still be activated.

In the anime also it showed, after her source is destroyed it immediately came back, and there was no magic circle casted before that.
Skip to 29 seconds.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

In the anime also it showed, after her source is destroyed it immediately came back, and there was no magic circle casted before that.
Skip to 29 seconds.

Thank you, I was literally just about to grab this

 

[Reiner04]

In the anime also it showed, after her source is destroyed it immediately came back, and there was no magic circle casted before that.
Skip to 29 seconds.

Where does he think he's touching.

considering that it activates on its own without need of magic spell being casted. I gotta disagree.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Her source was regenerated after being shattered. And I will tell you why I think your POV is incorrect, because agronemt was cast apparently automatically without the need of a previous cast to regenerate the destroyed source. Moreover, you have no proof that the magic circle was there previously, since it is only activated if the source is destroyed.

Their is nothing to prove that It was casted after her source was destroyed, nor is their for it already being their. All we have is the phrasing. Whice you and I interpt very differenty.

A bit irrelevant since the soul has nothing to do here, moreover the source was already destroyed and agronemt regenerated it at the same moment it happened.

I don't see how it is irrelevent that We had confirmation earlier in the series, that we gain confirmation of that Agronemt can be activated after the source ahs disapeared but not be casted.

Here you are wrong in many things, first Anos did not " heal" Nosgalia's source, Venuzdonoa "destroyed" Nosgalia's source and Anos regenerated it and left it at 10% of its usual capacity. And the last thing you said makes no sense since agronemt works the same way for all users.

Did you and I read the same scan?

"Agronemt," I said, regenerating Nosalgia's source.

Explain to me how this is not "Anos healing Nosalgia" by vs battle standard for healing?

And What do you mean "What you said makes no sense"

Natrually The spell that sends the spell into the future dosen't need to be used if you need to heal something in the present.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Their is nothing to prove that It was casted after her source was destroyed, nor is their for it already being their. All we have is the phrasing. Whice you and I interpt very differenty.

Dude for the love of god, quit it. There is literal proof in the novel and even the anime clip that's been sent, how hard-headed do you have to be to not comprehend something so blatant and simple?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Also if all you're going to do is sit there and say x, y & z hasn't been proven without offering any scans to debunk then we might as well close this thread here. All you've been doing is offering your opinion or viewpoint while we've been offering literal proof

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Jesus Christ, this can't be real. Do you not know the definition of automatic?

I'm genuinely shocked dude

Automatic is distinct from passive. An ability/skill which automatically activates under certain conditions is indeed treated distinct from some innate physiology related trait which doesn’t activate in the sense of an ability or skill being activated but instead acting more like a natural process that’s just always there and “active” rather than something being activated. I’m also pretty sure this wiki differentiates automatic and passive abilities.

 

[Dereck03]

Their is nothing to prove that It was casted after her source was destroyed, nor is their for it already being their. All we have is the phrasing. Whice you and I interpt very differenty.

Yes, the phrasing supports my instance of it showing the moment her source is destroyed. And satoshi already shared the anime version.

I don't see how it is irrelevent that We had confirmation earlier in the series, that we gain confirmation of that Agronemt can be activated after the source ahs disapeared but not be casted.

Not to be rude but i can't understand what are you saying with that spelling.

Did you and I read the same scan?

Explain to me how this is not "Anos healing Nosalgia" by vs battle standard for healing?

"Agronemt," I said, regenerating Nosalgia's source.

Regenerating, not healing, also...

The same keywords of the novel say that if the body is destroyed and the source remains "RESURRECTION" is possible, while if the source is destroyed, regeneration by Agronemt is always used.

And What do you mean "What you said makes no sense"

Natrually The spell that sends the spell into the future dosen't need to be used if you need to heal something in the present.

You don't heal anything, you regenerate with it, and yes, it can be used without casting it as showed above.

 

[Accelerator]

I just looked at the healing page, and there is no such thing as (Healing High Godly.)
I don't really understand why you are trying to create a new ability specifically for MG.
I think you should first create a CRT to improve the healing page to perhaps add more healing stages like with regen.

Now with the clip from the anime and the LN scans I disagree.

 

[Dereck03]

Automatic is indeed distinct from passive. An ability/skill which automatically activates under certain conditions is indeed treated distinct from some innate physiology related trait which doesn’t activate in the sense of an ability or skill being activated but instead acting more like a natural process that’s just always there and “active”. I’m also pretty sure this wiki differentiates automatic and passive abilities.

Here the ability is triggered when the source is destroyed and regenerates, literally the requirement is that the source is destroyed, if not there is no regeneration in the first place, so technically speaking we are facing an ability that will automatically activate when these requirements are met, it is the same as passively, as it requires the death of the user.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I just looked at the healing page, and there is no such thing as (Healing High Godly.)
I don't really understand why you are trying to create a new ability specifically for MG.
I think you should first create a CRT to improve the healing page to perhaps add more healing stages like with regen.

From the healing page

It's to be noted that the degree of the ability, if possible, should be specified with the same type system used for Regeneration, and so someone that has displayed the capability to heal up to a Mid level would be specified with the respective prefix.

And yes, I am currently working on a Thread to rework healing.... SO i don't need to deal with this kinda missunderstandings in the future...

 

[Godsatoshi23]

From the healing page

Even the healing page doesn't states you can heal someone after they dead. Even the examples shown there are upto fatal injuries.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Automatic is distinct from passive. An ability/skill which automatically activates under certain conditions is indeed treated distinct from some innate physiology related trait which doesn’t activate in the sense of an ability or skill being activated but instead acting more like a natural process that’s just always there and “active” rather than something being activated. I’m also pretty sure this wiki differentiates automatic and passive abilities.

I agree, in this case though it would be passive

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Here the ability is triggered when the source is destroyed and regenerates, literally the requirement is that the source is destroyed, if not there is no regeneration in the first place, so technically speaking we are facing an ability that will automatically activate when these requirements are met, it is the same as passively, as it requires the death of the user.

I mean functionally they’re the same but being an automated ability I believe is more accurate.

Yes, the phrasing supports my instance of it showing the moment her source is destroyed. And satoshi already shared the anime version.

Not to be rude but i can't understand what are you saying with that spelling.


Regenerating, not healing, also...

The same keywords of the novel say that if the body is destroyed and the source remains "RESURRECTION" is possible, while if the source is destroyed, regeneration by Agronemt is always used.

You don't heal anything, you regenerate with it, and yes, it can be used without casting it as showed above.

Regeneration is an accurate way to describe something being healed. For example if you use a healing spell on wounds and they heal/close up those wounds would be regenerating because of the healing. Regeneration is more for innate healing related to a persons physiology or “meta” physiology.

 

[Dereck03]

this is an ability that needs to be set up beforehand. It doesn't appear to be a passive.

as she could have intentionally activated the spell as soon as she died.

In the anime also it showed, after her source is destroyed it immediately came back, and there was no magic circle casted before that.
Skip to 29 seconds.

Sorry for the ping guys.
Here it is shown that.

• The ability is not required beforehand. And it was shown to regenerate the source as soon as it was destroyed so it happened passively. (Responding to Bambu)
• She did not activate the spell as soon as she died and it cannot be assumed as such since it was never even hinted at in either the Anime or the novel. (Responding to Deagon)

I mean functionally they’re the same but being an automated ability I believe is more accurate.

I wouldn't mind treating it the same way.

Regeneration is an accurate way to describe something being healed. For example if you use a healing spell on wounds and they heal/close up those wounds would be regenerating because of the healing. Regeneration is more for innate healing related to a persons physiology or “meta” physiology.

The verse treats regeneration, healing, resurrection in completely different ways.

• Small wounds are healed.
• Amputations are regenerated.
• Complete destruction of the body is resurrected.
• Destruction of the source is regenerated.

So there you have, that's why we have Regeneration, Resurrection, Healing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's not the bit directed at me, but still I feel compelled to state that the last bit is pure semantics. You can't heal an arm that isn't there and neither can you heal something that is dead: nevertheless, if it isn't passive, we would not call it Regeneration. We would call it Healing. That is not adequate argument to classify it as Regeneration. To offer a parallel, DnD has a Regenerate spell that regenerates limbs: it is Healing (Low-Mid).

As for the video, it doesn't give me sufficient context to judge one way or the other. The text does, so failing some more concrete form of video, I adhere to the text. If there was such a video, I suppose we'd come down to "which do we use in the case of inconsistency".

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The verse treats regeneration, healing, resurrection in completely different ways.

• Small wounds are healed.
• Amputations are regenerated.
• Complete destruction of the body is resurrected.
• Destruction of the source is regenerated.

So there you have, that's why we have Regeneration, Resurrection, Healing.

This is just taking the wiki terms too seriously. You can’t really focus on semantics here and that a lot of the times terms like healed regenerated and such are going to be used similarly and don’t necessarily have to refer to the exact wiki ability the name corresponds to. Like what matters the most is the mechanics behind the ability. Here it’s an ability that is automatically activated rather than being a passive ability that is just always there and doesn’t really need any “activation”. This is an automatic ability and cannot qualify for regeneration.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

(Also this appears to be one of those very fast moving threads, which I suppose I should have foreseen as an anime thing; don't expect me to reply rapidly to each message, as in spite of what wiki activity says, it is a lying bastard and I am not actively online currently)

 

[Godsatoshi23]

You can't heal an arm that isn't there and neither can you heal something that is dead: nevertheless, if it isn't passive, we would not call it Regeneration. We would call it Healing. That is not adequate argument to classify it as Regeneration.

If you heal something that is dead, then wouldn't it should be listed as ressurection, that's what ressurection page is for. Healing page states only healing upto where someone is alive nothing beyond that.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

It's not the bit directed at me, but still I feel compelled to state that the last bit is pure semantics. You can't heal an arm that isn't there and neither can you heal something that is dead: nevertheless, if it isn't passive, we would not call it Regeneration. We would call it Healing. That is not adequate argument to classify it as Regeneration. To offer a parallel, DnD has a Regenerate spell that regenerates limbs: it is Healing (Low-Mid).

As for the video, it doesn't give me sufficient context to judge one way or the other. The text does, so failing some more concrete form of video, I adhere to the text. If there was such a video, I suppose we'd come down to "which do we use in the case of inconsistency".

The video doesn't give you sufficient context? My guy, the video literally shows the magic circle appearing directly AFTER Anos crush's Avos's source which is exactly the same thing that the text says in just visual format. How is that insufficient? Like what?

 

[Robo432343]

I just looked at the healing page, and there is no such thing as (Healing High Godly.)

Lmao high godly healing is a thing

The Hands (DC Comics)

The Hands are a race of super-celestials from beyond the Source Wall whose purpose is to fill the emptiness of the Overvoid with Multiverses, using the Anti-Crisis Energy entrusted to them by the Source. With the creation of their Multiverse, each member of The Hands would pass on, giving their...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Accelerator]

Lmao high godly healing is a thing

The Hands (DC Comics)

The Hands are a race of super-celestials from beyond the Source Wall whose purpose is to fill the emptiness of the Overvoid with Multiverses, using the Anti-Crisis Energy entrusted to them by the Source. With the creation of their Multiverse, each member of The Hands would pass on, giving their...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I see. Then why isnt it on the healing page?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The video doesn't give you sufficient context? My guy, the video literally shows the magic circle appearing directly AFTER Anos crush's Avos's source which is exactly the same thing that the text says in just visual format. How is that insufficient? Like what?

Yeah anyways I dunno what you want from this question. I reaffirm: doesn't sufficiently counteract already provided evidence

 

[Tatsumi504]

There's no need for the back and forth banter. Bambu and BestMGQ's point is that regeneration is strictly physiology related thus anything else even a passive healing ability is still healing.

As we've discussed, there's a vague connection between resurrection and godly regeneration where one develops into the other but with the new standards, if it isn't physiology related it's healing however, as I've tried to tell everyone here, godly healing isn't and shouldn't be a thing.

Healing essentially is repairing something that's damaged or broken regardless of the extent it's damaged to be it bisected, smashed to pieces, reduced to atoms etc, there's always something that remains for the initialization of the healing process be it physical matter or a metaphysical substance. Godly resurrection or regeneration on the other hand drifts away from this greatly as it requires one to recover from absolutely nothing, in other words, there's nothing to heal from, therefore with the strict distinction in our standards for regen and healing, if what we classify as healing ever reaches godly levels, it should be indexed as resurrection.

In accordance to the above, the OP simply need change "high-godly healing" into "high-godly resurrection" as well as do so for any of his future threads where healing reaches godly levels even if for no reason other than my own peace of mind