Minor God of War Removal

[RH0904]

clearly, Bio manip is pretty much unnecessary because the Fates control literally everything

 

[KingTempest]

The issue is that Clotho creates threads of life for mortals. It's not outside the realm of their standard fate manip to cause someone to have twins in the process of making new threads. Grath explains it well here:

Is this an achievable feat for bio manip? Yes, certainly. But that would occur through mechanisms that aren't specified here, and their pre-existing abilities (the ones they are known for, as "the Fates") can already handle by themselves

...doesn't mean much

it just means that the effects of the fates can bring about biological manip effects

It's like a verse where a character can bring about EE via time manip by de-aging them before they ever existed. Doesn't mean they don't have EE, it just means it's of a unique nature

 

[Planck69]

I deleted the past few comments as they are derailment.

 

[Deagonx]

it just means that the effects of the fates can bring about biological manip effects

It's like a verse where a character can bring about EE via time manip by de-aging them before they ever existed. Doesn't mean they don't have EE, it just means it's of a unique nature

With an ability like fate manipulation, the implications of this are too broad. The Fates can, through shaping destiny, have a diverse set of effects on the world that could in theory be mapped to specific abilities, but they don't actually have those abilities themselves: their capacity to influence that part of reality is limited to what can be accomplished through fate-weaving. It'd be like giving a character with Telekinesis an exhaustive list of abilities like "Water Manip" "Cloth Manip" "Metal Manip" because ultimately telekinesis, vis-a-vis it's influence over physical objects, can be applied to those things.

The fact that the Fates (or, rather, Clotho specifically) determine who gets born and when by shaping Fate, and that this extends to deciding whether or not someone has twins, is an extremely specious basis for saying they have "biological manip" and even if we did ultimately replace the current justification with this one, the application would be so limited it would be bizarre to put it on a profile at all, because they currently have no feats justifying any applications beyond Clotho (in theory) being able to split a new thread she is weaving into two for the creation of twins, and in any case this would still remove the ability for everyone but Clotho because she is the only one that handles that aspect of the weaving.

 

[KLOL506]

With an ability like fate manipulation, the implications of this are too broad. The Fates can, through shaping destiny, have a diverse set of effects on the world that could in theory be mapped to specific abilities, but they don't actually have those abilities themselves: their capacity to influence that part of reality is limited to what can be accomplished through fate-weaving. It'd be like giving a character with Telekinesis an exhaustive list of abilities like "Water Manip" "Cloth Manip" "Metal Manip" because ultimately telekinesis, vis-a-vis it's influence over physical objects, can be applied to those things.

The fact that the Fates determine who gets born and when by shaping Fate, and that this extends to deciding whether or not someone has twins, is an extremely specious basis for saying they have "biological manip" and even if we did ultimately replace the current justification with this one, the application would be so limited it would be bizarre to put it on a profile at all, because they currently have no feats justifying any applications beyond Clotho (in theory) being able to split a new thread she is weaving into two for the creation of twins, and in any case this would still remove the ability for everyone but Clotho because she is the only one that handles that aspect of the weaving.

Fate Manip is broad enough that its effects can lead to Bio Manip

Bio Manip is limited to Clotho because she weaves the threads

Sisters of Fate can do whatever and whenever because they control the Fates of all as well as the threads

So uh... which one is it?

 

[KLOL506]

The Sisters have roles in what they do technically, yes, but they aren't bound by them. Not even a little. Hell, repeatedly in the novel they argue about straying beyond their roles and messing with the decisions of others.

 

[Deagonx]

So uh... which one is it?

None of those are very good descriptions of what I have said, so I suppose my answer is "none, go with what I actually wrote."

The Sisters have roles in what they do technically, yes, but they aren't bound by them. Not even a little. Hell, repeatedly in the novel they argue about straying beyond their roles and messing with the decisions of others.

As Planck said: "Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber."

If we are going to call Clotho's ability to weave new threads of life, and fate someone to have twins, a form of "bio manip" as strange as that is, then it would just be Clotho unless you find an instance where one of the other Fates created a new thread. And Clotho's justification for this would exclusively refer to her ability to fate twins into existence.

 

[KLOL506]

As Planck said: "Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber."

If we are going to extrapolate Clotho's ability to weave new threads of life, and insodoing fate someone to have twins, and call this a form of "bio manip" as strange as that is, then it would just be Clotho unless you find an instance where one of the other Fates created a new thread.

Again, just because Clotho does the weaving doesn't mean it is restricted specifically to her.

The Sisters can do anything and everything with the Fates of others on their lonesome, they even argue about straying past their usual roles because of boredom.

So to limit it to Clotho only would just be plain wrong.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

...doesn't mean much

it just means that the effects of the fates can bring about biological manip effects

It's like a verse where a character can bring about EE via time manip by de-aging them before they ever existed. Doesn't mean they don't have EE, it just means it's of a unique nature

De-aging someone like that would be age manipulation, not EE. The twins thing is covered by life manipulation already (in fact, that's the same scam already being used under their life manipulation justification), so I really don't see the need to call it biological manipulation too.

 

[Deagonx]

The Sisters can do anything and everything with the Fates of others on their lonesome, they even argue about straying past their usual roles because of boredom.

So to limit it to Clotho only would just be plain wrong.

"Clotho spins the fate we decide, I measure the length of the thread, and you cut it."

The only thing that they appear to all be capable of interchangeably is dictating fates. Nothing in the scan suggests that their individual roles as it pertains to the physical management of threads (Clotho spins, Atropos measures, Lakhesis cuts) is interchangeable as you suggest. The "occasional diversion" in the quote you're referring to is immediately described as making Pan irresistible to Nymphs, so that has nothing to do with the thread management itself, it's directly stated that they're talking about making funny things happen in people's lives, not Atropos spinning new threads instead of Clotho for a change to break up the routine, or something like that.

Again, if you can find evidence that the others can spin new threads, and it ends up being the case that the staff majority is in favor of characterizing this as a form of bio manip, we could give them all a limited form of bio manip that indicates their ability to destine twins to be born, which would be a weird ability to index at all but if thats how it turns out so be it. However, right now there's no indication of the former, and the current majority is for removing bio manip altogether.

 

[KLOL506]

"Clotho spins the fate we decide, I measure the length of the thread, and you cut it."

The only thing that they appear to all be capable of interchangeably is dictating fates. Nothing in the scan suggests that their individual roles as it pertains to the physical management of threads (Clotho spins, Atropos measures, Lakhesis cuts) is interchangeable as you suggest.

All the Sisters can stroke and tug on the threads to enact whatever fate they want for their Mortals. Clotho does it, Atropos does it, even Lahkesis does it (As per the novel). Anything and everything they do is solely because they can do whatever with the threads that they create and manage.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As it stands, resistance to bio manip is being removed regardless, since nobody in the series would ever need to "resist" giving birth to twins.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

De-aging someone like that would be age manipulation, not EE. The twins thing is covered by life manipulation already (in fact, that's the same scam already being used under their life manipulation justification), so I really don't see the need to call it biological manipulation too.

It is considered EE, or to have similar effects.

But, realistically speaking, isn't the point of indexing these abilities is to categorize their effects, Wouldn't it seem unfair to ignore the effects the sisters of fate have through their temporal life threads just because it's something inherently granted from it?

 

[Lou_change]

Is causing an avalanche via probability manipulation, earth manipulation?

 

[Deagonx]

All the Sisters can stroke and tug on the threads to enact whatever fate they want for their Mortals. Clotho does it, Atropos does it, even Lahkesis does it (As per the novel). Anything and everything they do is solely because they can do whatever with the threads that they create and manage.

Sure, but that's not the process that is being used to justify bio manip, it is the splitting of new threads during the creation process -- which is entirely handled by Clotho and is specifically said to be Clotho's job multiple times -- where one can simply split a thread. There's nothing indicating that Atropos or Lakhesis could just split any random thread on the loom after Clotho has already strung it to the spool.

In any case, if the vote changes, all it would be is an extremely limited case of bio manip that can be used to fate a life to split into twins at its inception, which would have no bearing on anything and no resistances could be granted from it. As it stands theres only evidence for Clotho being able to do it, but it's more or less moot on whether the other Fates can do it as its such a non-ability its barely worth mentioning.

It is considered EE, or to have similar effects.

But, realistically speaking, isn't the point of indexing these abilities is to categorize their effects, Wouldn't it seem unfair to ignore the effects the sisters of fate have through their temporal life threads just because it's something inherently granted from it?

For abilities with broad applications its impractical, the example I gave is telekinesis. Do we give "Matilda" or "Eleven (Stranger Things)" every [physical object] manip under the sun because they can control physical objects with telekinesis? So therefore they can pick up a piece of metal (metal manip) or a shirt (cloth manip) etc etc? That's not how we tend to index things.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Is causing an avalanche via probability manipulation, earth manipulation?

yes

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Is causing an avalanche via probability manipulation, earth manipulation?

As an inherent ability, no. As an effect of probability manipulation, absolutely.

 

[KLOL506]

Sure, but that's not the process that is being used to justify bio manip, it is the splitting of new threads during the creation process -- which is entirely handled by Clotho and is specifically said to be Clotho's job multiple times -- where one can simply split a thread. There's nothing indicating that Atropos or Lakhesis could just split any random thread on the loom after Clotho has already strung it to the spool.

They can all cut up the threads or fine-adjust the strands to their liking. Splitting threads isn't exclusive to Clotho.

In any case, if the vote changes, all it would be is an extremely limited case of bio manip that can be used to fate a life to split into twins at its inception, which would have no bearing on anything and no resistances could be granted from it. As it stands theres only evidence for Clotho being able to do it, but it's more or less moot on whether the other Fates can do it as its such a non-ability its barely worth mentioning.

Again, this is just plain denial of the narrative context behind the true might of the Sisters of Fate, so no.

 

[Deagonx]

Is causing an avalanche via probability manipulation, earth manipulation?

yes

I'm fairly certain it isn't or shouldn't be. Most profiles with these kinds of broad abilities do not involve tediously listing every possible overlap with other abilities. I don't know if there is an official page on the wiki that says how to handle such cases, but I'm happy to make a staff thread to clear this matter up if need be, as I am sure most staff would agree with not listing it like that.

They can all cut up the threads or fine-adjust the strands to their liking. Splitting threads isn't exclusive to Clotho.

If you can find evidence of them being able to split strings I'm happy to look at it. Your theory that they can is not enough to give the others the ability to do Clotho's job.

Again, this is just plain denial of the narrative context behind the true might of the Sisters of Fate, so no.

We only give people abilities with regard to what can be proven, so yes. In this case even if the scan were interpreted as bio manip, fating twins would be the extent of it until more evidence is found.

 

[omegabronic]

I'm confused by this. If Greek mythology is full of weird pregnancies, what makes humans and animals bio manip? In real life they can't, but that doesn't appear to be the case in GOW and there's nothing that suggests the Fates are the reason why.

why would we assume that men and animal can have biological children by default in the GoW universe? that seems like a wild claim

 

[KLOL506]

If you can find evidence of them being able to split strings I'm happy to look at it. Your theory that they can is not enough to give the others the ability to do Clotho's job.

Atropos marks a Thread of Fate when re-measuring a mortal's thread so as not to make their lifespan too short or too long for Lahkesis.

Atropos looked up from her own work, measuring the length of a thread of destiny tied to a rod to maintain tension. If it slackened, she might have to remeasure and give the boon of a longer life to the young king tethered to the far end. Worse, he might die too quickly should impetuous Lahkesis cut prematurely because of the drooping fate. Atropos stretched out a talon-fingered hand, using her long nails to mark off the proper life-length on the thread. - GoW2 Novel Chapter 2

Atropos then kills a person by tugging on a thread, a role usually reserved for Lahkesis who does it by cutting them with her scythes

“Nothing stays the same.” Atropos tugged on a thread and ended a life. - GoW2 Novel Chapter 10

Atropos can even repair unwanted fraying of the threads that might lead to different outcomes

ATROPOS STARED at the vast tapestry that was the world’s destiny, but she didn’t see the clever knots or intricate warp and woof that she and her sisters had created. What Lahkesis said bothered her. Lahkesis was always unsettled and unsettling, never getting down to the serious work of choosing the ultimate destinies for those most deserving. Still, what her sister had said caused Atropos to think more carefully about Kratos.

Nothing about his fate had worked out precisely the way she or her sisters had intended. More than once she had checked the strength of the thread binding the Ghost of Sparta to his fate, only to find fraying along the sides. Repairing those small imperfections had done nothing to alter his fate, of course, but it had changed the path to his eventual death. - GoW2 Novel Chapter 13

Lahkesis was getting more and more pissed at Kratos refusing to buckle. Atropos goaded Lahkesis into trying to do her job instead.

Lahkesis felt her hackles rise.

“Who are you to tell me what to do? I know how to spin destinies. Better than you or Clotho!”

“Should I do your chore?” Atropos reached for Kratos’ thread of fate.

Lahkesis jerked it away from her sister’s groping fingers. Atropos lacked imagination and would only put an end to Kratos in a way sure to create ripples along other strands. Such a disturbance might take years to resolve.

“I’ll do it. He will never reach us, sister. He will be stopped at the Temple of Euryale.”

“You are sure?” - GoW2 Novel Chapter 28

Clotho is pissed at both Atropos and Lahkesis for being so complacent with Kratos, so she decides to do it herself. It doesn't work.

“You and Atropos are responsible, meddling individually. Cut the thread now!” Clotho plucked it again, but the vibrations died out quickly. Too quickly. Such a tweak should have crippled Kratos. It didn’t.

“I should face him,” Lahkesis said. “There is more to Kratos than we know.”

“No!” Both Atropos and Clotho cried out in unison at such a heretical thought.

“The Ghost of Sparta is Gaia’s pawn, but there is more to him. He is developing a will not controlled by our determination of his fate.” - GoW2 Novel Chapter 46

There's more but we'd be here all day looking for them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We only give people abilities with regard to what can be proven, so yes. In this case even if the scan were interpreted as bio manip, fating twins would be the extent of it until more evidence is found.

I heavily agree with this. A common argument in this thread has been "the Sisters of Fate can do anything", as if that lessens the burden of proof on your claims. This site has always operated by indexing what a character can do, rather than what they can hypothetically do.

 

[KLOL506]

I heavily agree with this. A common argument in this thread has been "the Sisters of Fate can do anything", as if that lessens the burden of proof on your claims. This site has always operated by indexing what a character can do, rather than what they can hypothetically do.

It's literally two scans about them causing the conception of twins and making offsprings from animals and mortals possible, which they attribute to their own handiwork. IDK why this is so hard to understand.

 

[Deagonx]

Atropos marks a Thread of Fate when re-measuring a mortal's thread so as not to make their lifespan too short or too long for Lahkesis.

Yes, that is her job. She measures them and Lakhesis cuts them.

Atropos then kills a person by tugging on a thread, a role usually reserved for Lahkesis who does it by cutting them with her scythes

“Nothing stays the same.” Atropos tugged on a thread and ended a life. - GoW2 Novel Chapter 10

No, tugging is not the same as cutting. In fact, they aren't even especially similar actions, so this is a weird claim.

Atropos can even repair unwanted fraying of the threads that might lead to different outcomes

Once again, repairing a fraying thread is not the same as cutting or spinning new threads. You have still failed to establish any overlap in those three roles.

Lahkesis was getting more and more pissed at Kratos refusing to buckle. Atropos goaded Lahkesis into trying to do her job instead.

The text describes them choosing a destiny, a way that Kratos would end up dying, which was already stated to be a shared responsibility. This does not speak to overlap between the three roles of spinning new threads, measuring them, and cutting them.

Clotho is pissed at both Atropos and Lahkesis for being so complacent with Kratos, so she decides to do it herself. It doesn't work.

This just describes her plucking the string to affect his destiny, which -- again -- was already said to be a shared task.


So you have a bunch of quotes of them all doing they thing that we already knew they all did, and no quotes that talk about them doing the specific things that only one of them does. Great.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's literally two scans about them causing the conception of twins and making offsprings from animals and mortals possible, which they attribute to their own handiwork. IDK why this is so hard to understand.

Then, would you agree with removing resistance to biological manipulation from the relevant pages? Since neither of those things can be "resisted", nor would anyone need to resist them. Like, Kratos isn't pregnant during GoW 2, I don't think "make him have twins" was really an option for the Sisters of Fate.

 

[Planck69]

Is this current discussion even going anywhere? I feel like we've veered way off course.

 

[KLOL506]

No, tugging is not the same as cutting. In fact, they aren't even especially similar actions, so this is a weird claim.

The end result is the same so IDK what point you're trying to make.

Once again, repairing a fraying thread is not the same as cutting or spinning new threads. You have still failed to establish any overlap in those three roles.

The fact that they can do whatever they want with the threads? Just because they have those specific roles doesn't mean they are limited to said roles.

The text describes them choosing a destiny, a way that Kratos would end up dying, which was already stated to be a shared responsibility. This does not speak to overlap between the three roles of spinning new threads, measuring them, and cutting them.

The end result is changing Kratos's fate to die and fail at his task. I still don't get what point you're trying to make.

This just describes her plucking the string to affect his destiny, which -- again -- was already said to be a shared task.

This wasn't just affecting his destiny, they were plucking his thread to kill him on the spot.

So you have a bunch of quotes of them all doing they thing that we already knew they all did, and no quotes that talk about them doing the specific things that only one of them does. Great.

So you're just going to ignore everything I said about them being able to do whatever with the thread and not needing to have to do that specific things.

Deagon, the Bio Manip stems from them interacting with the Threads in the first place. As do the wars, conflicts, dissent, inducing diseases and death.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Then, would you agree with removing resistance to biological manipulation from the relevant pages? Since neither of those things can be "resisted", nor would anyone need to resist them. Like, Kratos isn't pregnant during GoW 2, I don't think "make him have twins" was really an option for the Sisters of Fate.

No, have every staff member that has contributed to this discussion reevaluate your newest proposal.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Clotho is pissed at both Atropos and Lahkesis for being so complacent with Kratos, so she decides to do it herself. It doesn't work.

“You and Atropos are responsible, meddling individually. Cut the thread now!” Clotho plucked it again, but the vibrations died out quickly. Too quickly. Such a tweak should have crippled Kratos. It didn’t.

wait, why wasn't this used?

 

[KLOL506]

And yeah, Atropos can pluck and re-weave a Thread of Fate. Behind Clotho and Lahkesis's backs.

 

[Planck69]

So, Clotho can immediately cripple a target with a tweak. Would that be affecting his biology or yet another power? Not even being sparky, just genuinely asking. I've only now seen that quote.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, have every staff member that has contributed to this discussion reevaluate your newest proposal.

...Because it's not a new proposal? I still stand by removing biological manipulation entirely, which seems to be the majority opinion as of now, and was just asking KLOL if he agreed with that specific argument.

 

[Deagonx]

The end result is the same so IDK what point you're trying to make.

The point is that Lakhesis cuts, and you're trying to claim any of them can by showing Atropos tugging, which is a different thing. The cutting that Lakhesis does in the thread-making process described when each Fate is given an individual role (Clotho weaves new threads, Atropos measures, Lakhesis cuts) isn't to kill these people. It is described as determining how long their life will end up being.

The fact that they can do whatever they want with the threads? Just because they have those specific roles doesn't mean they are limited to said roles.

I know that's what you're claiming (that any of the Fates can make new threads) but literally none of your scans support that, they only speak to the Fates doing the thing that we already knew they could each do, which is write people's destinies on existing threads by touching them.

And yeah, Atropos can pluck and re-weave a Thread of Fate.

Amazing, yet another scan of Atropos doing the thing we already knew all three Fates could do.

You have gathered 10 or so quotes of the Fates each being able to alter destinies on existing strings. None that say all of them can create new strings or split strings. Let me know if you ever find one.

No, have every staff member that has contributed to this discussion reevaluate your newest proposal.

That wouldn't be necessary. The existing resistance is against a power that is being removed. The ability to split a string into twins isn't something Kratos was indexed as resisting.

 

[KLOL506]

...Because it's not a new proposal? I still stand by removing biological manipulation entirely, which seems to be the majority opinion as of now, and was just asking KLOL if he agreed with that specific argument.

You wish to change it so that only Clotho retains it, which is far, far different from what the OG proposal was.

That being said, with the new scans in hand, no, I would not agree to the removal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You wish to change it so that only Clotho retains it, which is far, far different from what the OG proposal was.

That being said, with the new scans in hand, no, I would not agree to the removal.

What? That has literally nothing to do with what I asked.

Then, would you agree with removing resistance to biological manipulation from the relevant pages? Since neither of those things can be "resisted", nor would anyone need to resist them. Like, Kratos isn't pregnant during GoW 2, I don't think "make him have twins" was really an option for the Sisters of Fate.

It was about resistance to bio hax, since the replacement scan you've put forth isn't really combat applicable.

 

[KLOL506]

The point is that Lakhesis cuts, and you're trying to claim any of them can by showing Atropos tugging, which is a different thing. The cutting that Lakhesis does in the thread-making process described when each Fate is given an individual role (Clotho weaves new threads, Atropos measures, Lakhesis cuts) isn't to kill these people. It is described as determining how long their life will end up being.

I honestly don't get what point you're trying to get across here at this point.

I know that's what you're claiming (that any of the Fates can make new threads) but literally none of your scans support that, they only speak to the Fates doing the thing that we already knew they could each do, which is write people's destinies on existing threads by touching them.

Already addressed with the above scan I just posted.

Amazing, yet another scan of Atropos doing the thing we already knew all three Fates could do.

You have gathered 10 or so quotes of the Fates each being able to alter destinies on existing strings. None that say all of them can create new strings or split strings. Let me know if you ever find one.

So re-weaving a thread from scratch is somehow worse than Clotho weaving a brand new thread?

Alright then.

 

[KLOL506]

What? That has literally nothing to do with what I asked.

The OG proposal was to nuke it for everyone, the power and resistance to it. Now the end goal would be that Clotho retains it for herself.

It was about resistance to bio hax, since the replacement scan you've put forth isn't really combat applicable.

And this was before we posted the scans about Atropos re-weaving a thread of Fate and Clotho plucking Kratos' thread to cripple him.

 

[Planck69]

If the current discussion is if the other Sisters, can spin threads, they can. I don't know how we got here but here ya go.



Atropos complains about Lahkesis monopolising Kratos instead of sharing the duty like they should. They can spin, weave and cut on their own, its just not what they decide to do.

 

[Deagonx]

So re-weaving a thread from scratch is somehow worse than Clotho weaving a brand new thread?

There's no scans that say she "re-weaved them from scratch." She plucked some of them and kept the length the same but changed their destinies. In other words, she's just doing the thing that all three of them can do. Affecting an existing thread and making new ones is not the same, and nothing suggests she can split them.

Again, your theory that they can all create new threads and split them is unsupported by any of the evidence, you just keep posting scan after scan of them changing fates and pretending it's the same thing when it isn't. It's not evidence.

The OG proposal was to nuke it for everyone, the power and resistance to it. Now the end goal would be that Clotho retains it for herself.

No, the proposal is still to completely remove it. We are discussing what would occur if the vote changed from what it is currently and the "creating twins" scan was used instead. The justification would need to be rewritten and only Clotho would have it.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

“You and Atropos are responsible, meddling individually. Cut the thread now!” Clotho plucked it again, but the vibrations died out quickly. Too quickly. Such a tweak should have crippled Kratos. It didn’t.

Clotho orders her sisters to cut the thread, it wouldn't make sense if they can't do that.

As for bio manipulation being combat usable, a tweak would've crippled Kratos.