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Mini Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

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Scaling isn’t questionable at all, and no one has yet to provide a solid argument as to why Angel Rodin doesn’t scale to Jubileus as he’s always been, aside from “Having the same halo doesnt = same strength!” Which I’ve countered numerous times with many different evidence. At best you can downgrade his demon form to 3-A, but his angel form definitely stays.
 
did you even bother addressing Dienomite's points at all? He gave a reason why he shouldn't scale to Jubileus.
 
Did you also addressed the part where he explained how Rulers doesn't imply Jubileus? And that given how she's been in a slumber, it wouldn't remotely count as her being a ruler? Because that's kind of a main point against scaling to Jubileus to begin with.
 
That whole ruler, and him being kicked out of paradiso stuff isn’t a concern of mine. That isn’t the reasoning why he’s scaled to jubileus in his profile, nor was it the point I was trying to argue.
 
It.... kind of is important though. That’s the closest argument you got in regards to Jubileus and Rodin being comparable to each other. And I’ll say it again, having Bayonetta scale from Rodin and scaling him to 3-A jubileus makes no sense because Bayonetta needed the left eye to match her, but in base she can casually beat a guy comparable to her? That doesn’t make any sense.
 
It’s not important, because the halos carry just as much significance as Jubileus supposedly being “scared” of him. In your own words, Bayonetta doesn’t even know how to use the left eyes power. Her being forced into that form, so I see no problem with scaling her base to that version. Especially when looking at the fight, left eye Bayonetta was beating Jubileus to a pulp. There really was no fight to begin with.
 
There...... was a fight though. She resorted to summoning, something she does against virtually anyone comparable to her. If there was hardly any fight to begin with she would've curbstomped Jubileus without the need for summoning Sheba.
 
Theglassman12 said:
It.... kind of is important though. That’s the closest argument you got in regards to Jubileus and Rodin being comparable to each other. And I’ll say it again, having Bayonetta scale from Rodin and scaling him to 3-A jubileus makes no sense because Bayonetta needed the left eye to match her, but in base she can casually beat a guy comparable to her? That doesn’t make any sense.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. It's like Krillen struggling to beat Frieza, but than suddenly can beat Jiren. The most logical conclusion it's a outlier/pis.
 
Bayonetta hadn’t visibly taken any damage, aside from Jubileus who was literally battered. Bayonetta summons demons against every enemy, so I mean sure? She summons demons against fodder angels, and who aren’t virtually comparable to her either. She’s a witch, she’s going to use demons regardless.

The halos are enough to compare Rodin to Jubileus, and Bayonetta beating Rodin in base, isn’t too hard to believe when you acknowledge how she never used the EOTW until that point. How long are we planning to argue these same points, until someone finally calls it quits? Dienomite isn’t replying anymore, and the only one continuing to disagree at this point is just you. Practically everyone else agrees with the upgrades already.
 
Everyone HASN’T agreed with the upgrades. You have like 4 people agreeing with you so far. And a decent amount of people either being neutral or flat out against it.
 
Could I get a summary of the main points rn?
From What I'm reading Im moreso leaning with Glass. I dont think there is enough evidence that rodin is on that level power wise
 
Comicgyal’s arguments:

Rodin is comparable to jubileus cause same rank and same halo.

Bayonetta beat Rodin who’s comparable to jubileus so she scales.

Bayonetta didn’t try hard against jubileus

If I’m missing any other points Comicgyal made feel free to correct me.

my points:

Rodin’s lore does not remotely imply Jubileus fearing his power since she was in slumber and it’s stated the rulers feared him, which could mean the cardinals of virtue.

Scaling to Rodin for Bayonetta would make a circular scaling that would make no sense, Bayo beats Rodin who’s comparable to jubileus who left eye Bayonetta beat who base Bayonetta couldn’t really beat Loptr when nerfed who also struggled against Loptr with no eyes and one eye.

dienomite made a long reply a few comments ago, you can read that for his arguments.
 
All staff members:

What are the conclusions here so far, along with the reasons for them?
 
Been watching the thread for awhile now, and analyzing all the points made in accordance with the provided evidence. I agree with comicgyal here.

Also, I want to offer some food for thought regarding this slumbering Jubileus being ignorant of Rodin assumption. The fear of Rodin, which could also just mean respect when referring to Jubileus, as well as, the statement made about spheres &. ranking not correlating to strength but solely specializations.

A portion of it reads, "During his time in paradise, the angel Rodin was charged with the task of creation, responding to Divine Will with various masterpieces."

This was referenced earlier as a means to debunk Rodin's standing, but this alone can substantiate his status & abilities. "Responding to Divine Will", Jubileus herself is the embodiment of Divine Will, and since Father Rodin is the only known Angel to be in the same sphere as her - having the same halo but not being referred to as "dea" (ie. goddess), this outright implies he acted in accordance to her values and inherently holds a very strong connection to her down to his very nature.

Jubileus is the Creator, Rodin creates weapons in accordance to her will, contextually her will brings about destruction - Rodin's job thematically coincides with her very nature. He's never shown to be pressed in any physical confrontation outside of being thrashed by Bayonetta. There's also the fact that his weapons were stated to have literally turned the tides of battle in war when Angel's were outnumbered. Rodin uses only his fists - raw latent power - this naturally makes him leagues superior to the weapons he crafts, and the Angels below the sphere he and Jubileus reside in. When taking all of this, along with the two fights with Bayonetta into account, you can see that this does not inconvenience the power scaling by any means. He's consistently placed at a point less than or equal to Jubileus and Bayonetta, via lore and combat. To say he would be High 6-A at best isn't correct as he fodderizes every angel and demon that comes his way whenever he tags along or is in a cutscene.

Lastly, if you're unsure if he scales to fullpower Jubileus - which I don't think he does at all - he definitely should compare to the Jubileus we've seen. This was an incomplete manifestation powered solely by Balder, the Right Eye. This definitely doesn't mean he would beat this iteration of Jubileus either, I think it would comfortably place him beneath the likes of Bayonetta & Balder who are also relative, and are both very much needed to even bring about a full power Jubileus in the first place. If Rodin loses to Bayonetta consistently, he should logically be slightly below Balder, too.

It's already established Balder & Bayonetta aren't too far below the other God tiers because, they're consistently shown to go pound for pound with them whether they lose via scripted fights in the game, story cutscenes, being able to summon the likes of Omne & Sheba, so on and so forth. All in all, I believe the same logic can be used for Rodin in regards to the halo situation.
 
So which other mod needs to give their stance? So far weekly, and Schnee agree. I think it’s only DDM and Dragonmasterxyz that’s left
 
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So DDM (prefer him to actually comment that he agrees instead of upvote), Weekly, schnee, Minaj, and Strife agrees 5

Crimson and Milly (has made some agreements on the points against the upgrades) are neutral 2

Me, Dienomite, Warren, Cyber, Mister6ame6, San-Kakarot (mostly agreed with some points I made) are against the upgrades. 6
 
I don’t see why we can’t include normal users inputs. If they’re knowledgeable enough on the verse or understands what’s being argued I don’t see why we need to remove their votes
 
I asked Ant for staff intervention, since we’ve been arguing the same points for a while now. Also some of the disagree members haven’t provided much to the debate itself, or reasons why they disagree. Mister6ame6 gave no reasoning, San Kakarot gave an analogy but hasn’t shown any knowledge of the verse / didn’t debate anything pertaining to it. Warren wasn’t here to debate, only ask questions and give some of his thoughts (admitted he hadn’t played either games in a while). You, Dienomite, and Cyber are the only ones who seem knowledgeable and arguing the main points.
 
that logic can also apply to your side since DDM and Schnee haven’t given any response beyond they agree.
 
Okay, it's been a few years since I touched the Bayonetta games; I know the proposal comes from Rodin who's comparable to Jubileus scaling to Bayonetta's base form. But when did she fight Rodin? Just going to point this out, if Rodin being comparable to Bayonetta happened in the first game; I can see where the loophole comes from. But if it's the second game; I don't see why it could simply be Bayonetta is stronger there then she was in the first.

Although, another thing brought up is that there are other gods comparable to Jubileus whom Bayonetta regularly fights even without Left Eye in both games. Also, she's not the joke underdog like Krillin, she's the main heroine who often saves the day and beats her foes. So I really don't get the Krillin analogy.
 
Her being Krillin isn’t the point that we’ve been making. The point that we’ve been making is her scaling to someone who’s apparently comparable to the gods via the rank and some loose interpretations on the lore is reaching because you have a scaling where base Bayonetta scales to Rodin, who’s comparable to jubileus, who Bayonetta needed the left eye to match, and then Loptr being able to beat her with no eyes and then with one eye easily but she just scales to Jubileus at base despite losing to another god comparable to Jubileus with one eye.
 
I would argue that weakened jubileus is much weaker than you think, despite her being able to make universes. She’s only powered by One eye, and to make matters worse SHES nerfed further due to her being resurrected in the wrong realm. Loptr is just Aesir in a different form, and I would realistically argue that he’s stronger than weakened Jubileus as well. Not to mention every fight they’ve had it was not a stomp, and in most cases he only won due to some outside element / surprise.
 
When did her being resurrected in the wrong realm indicate her being weaker? Balder was going to resurrect jubileus regardless where they were at. Heck he told Jeanne to not remove Bayonetta from the literal eye of jubileus since they wouldn’t remake the Trinity of realities.

wait so you admit that the gods are different in strength? Doesn’t that put a hole in the logic of “they all should scale because they’re comparable to each other via ruling certain realms”?

also I disagree, the only outside element/surprise that occurred in the fights was to benefit Bayonetta not Loptr. Loptr was going to kill Bayonetta with 0 eyes but Loki opened the gates of hell before that happened. The second time he was occupied with Rosa and left Bayonetta after she was incapacitated. Third time Loki had to erase his eyes. All 3 of these were outside help for Bayonetta, not loptr
 
Kamiya has confirmed that she’d be stronger if she was summoned in Paradiso. Also the statue that she was resurrected in isn’t her actual seal .

No, because that’s a weakened Jubileus, not the one who governs over Paradiso. Of course Aesir would be stronger than a one eye jubileus, I’m sure you knew what I meant.

Before that point he caught Bayo off guard by showing her memories, he wasn’t there to kill Bayonetta, and in that instance he wasn’t trying to fight her either. Evidence being that he didn’t kill her, when he had ample chance. Though that’s the only real loss, because in the Aesir fight he just ran up and took her eyes too so.
 
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