Mini Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

[Theglassman12]

Can you show me where Kamiya said that?

Jubileus with One eye, who btw, Loptr when much weaker stomped Bayonetta despite being comparable to Jubileus as you claimed, this puts holes in the logic on scaling her to the god tiers in base, as well as Rodin scaling too.

No you keep ignoring the part BEFORE he remotely showed her the memories, he got her onto her knees while she's barely managing to stand up, only AFTER he beats her down to that level did he bother to show her the memories.

 

[Comicgyal]

Here, he says a lot that Jubileus was super weak / not fully awakened. So yeah I’d argue Aesir/Loptr > Left eye Jubileus. Doesn’t put any holes in the logic, Jubileus was just that weak, Kamiya says Jubileus got her ass handed to her

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And the 3-A feat comes from the Weakened Jubileus yes?

 

[Comicgyal]

Indeed

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

And the 3-A feat comes from the Weakened Jubileus yes?

There's 2 separate 3-A feats. One from trinity merging that Jubileus was gonna pull at full power, and one from Kamiya game commentary saying that the elemental stages that weakened Jubileus creates are individual universe sized spaces.

 

[Comicgyal]

(More like there’s one 3-A feat, and one 2-C feat. Since the merging doesn’t count as 3-A)

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

(More like there’s one 3-A feat, and one 2-C feat. Since the merging doesn’t count as 3-A)

The merging does count as 3-A with the possibility of being 2-C though? Its like a calc having a low end and a high end. Thousands upon thousands of times above baseline 3-A is the low ball, and the 2-C is the high end.

 

[Comicgyal]

The merging does count as 3-A with the possibility of being 2-C though?

That’s not what their keys mean, the 3-A feat is guaranteed for the one eye forms of the characters, so weakened Jubileus is 3-A. The 3-A possibly 2-C is because the merging feat hasn’t happened, but if it did happen then it would 2-C. Not that the merging itself is 3-A, 3-A is just their guaranteed rating. Which is why there’s really only one 3-A feat.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

That’s not what their keys mean, the 3-A feat is guaranteed for the one eye forms of the characters, so weakened Jubileus is 3-A. The 3-A possibly 2-C is because the merging feat hasn’t happened, but if it did happen then it would 2-C. Not that the merging itself is 3-A, 3-A is just their guaranteed rating. Which is why there’s really only one 3-A feat.

Comic, the entire reason Jubileus is only listed as possibly 2-C is because of questions arising about whether there truly was an alternate timeline arose and we settled for possibly 2-C as a result. The merging feat at the lowest way you can look at it is thousands of times above baseline 3-A. Full power Jubileus has an entirely separate feat than weakened Jub that grants 3-A.

 

[Comicgyal]

Comic, the entire reason Jubileus is only listed as possibly 2-C is because of questions arising about whether there truly was an alternate timeline arose and we settled for possibly 2-C as a result. The merging feat at the lowest way you can look at it is thousands of times above baseline 3-A. Full power Jubileus has an entirely separate feat than weakened Jub that grants 3-A.

I didn’t think that was how they were considering it, since the feat involves two separate timelines I assumed it was just possibly 2-C since it hadn’t happened. But that’s my bad

 

[Theglassman12]

ok, I'll concede on the weakened Jubileus part given Kamiya did say she was weaker, but Rodin scaling to any of the gods at their maximum potency I do not buy because Loptr being a thing where his weaker forms can beat Bayonetta casually doesn't help her scaling above them normally.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[Comicgyal]

We’re waiting for Dragonmasterxyz now

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Alright so this is a lot. Can I get a summarization on the logic of both sides.

 

[Comicgyal]

We’ve been discussing Rodin scaling right now, my main point has been the halo is still a viable scaling option

Halos are relative to strength, or else there wouldn’t be a hierarchy in the first place. Saying “Rodin and Jublieus both have the Dea halo meaning they are within the same sphere, but they are not in the same ranking.” Is redundant, and applies to weaker angels.

In the auditio sphere there is no “ranking” they are simply the strongest members. The only other members of auditio are their weaker reincarnations, but those don’t count. In the dea sphere there is no “ranking” either, it’s just Jubileus and Father Rodin. There’s no ranking because their power are similar, not much is setting them apart from each other. Which is why Temperantia isn’t in a higher “ranking” than Lustitia, despite them both governing over separate elements. Because there’s not a ranking inside of their sphere, you can assume that they’re all truly comparable to each other. The same goes for Jubileus and Rodin.

Bayonetta scaling to Rodin was brought into question, due to her being beat by Loptr a few times. My main point is that Loptr/Aesir > Weakened Jubileus, due to statements Kamiya has made.

I would argue that weakened jubileus is much weaker than you think, despite her being able to make universes. She’s only powered by One eye, and to make matters worse SHES nerfed further due to her being resurrected in the wrong realm. Loptr is just Aesir in a different form, and I would realistically argue that he’s stronger than weakened Jubileus as well. Not to mention every fight they’ve had it was not a stomp, and in most cases he only won due to some outside element / surprise.

Here, he says a lot that Jubileus was super weak / not fully awakened. So yeah I’d argue Aesir/Loptr > Left eye Jubileus. Doesn’t put any holes in the logic, Jubileus was just that weak, Kamiya says Jubileus got her ass handed to her

 

[Theglassman12]

I've recently conceded on Rodin scaling to Jubileus when weakened mostly on the fact that her boss fight was stated by kamiya to be weaker than her initial resurrection was supposed to be due to it not being in paradiso. But I'm still arguing that Sheba and arguably Omne shouldn't scale to both eyes of the world, and Rodin not scaling to the 2-C at all given the only argument there is "he's the most dangerous demon" even though dangerous doesn't mean the most powerful.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

How is the context of "dangerous" used? Dangerous doesn't always translate to power, but we should be able to use what we know about the abilities of the characters and what the series would consider "dangerous" to decide whether it is something that is useful for scaling AP or not. So I would like more context and for us to actually consider the nature of the characters and verse before we rule it out completely. Otherwise I am perfectly fine with the 3-A scaling.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m fine with Rodins demon form only scaling to 3-A, however Queen Sheba and Omne definitely scale to 2-C via the text about balance.

Yes, in the game Bayonetta beats demon Rodin brutally, and it’s canon. The quote implies Rodin > Queen Sheba, so Bayonetta > Queen Sheba or at the very least comparable to her if you don’t want to accept it.

it is circular, however from what everyone has been arguing it isn’t as “circular” as the game makes it out to be. Personally I believe all the god tiers scale, it’s very obvious that’s the implications.. each one takes over one of their respective realms, they keep the balance. One cannot be stronger than the other, or else the balance will topple over itself. So for someone to say Queen Sheba is massively weaker than the other God tiers, is to ignore the reason why she controls inferno in the first place.

Reminder the whole reason they wanted to revive Jubileus, was so that Paradiso could rule all of the other realms. So this balance is very real.

Rodins quote goes as follows

"An immortal man feared as the most dangerous demon in the entire barren wasteland of Inferno. Freely traveling between the human world and Inferno, it is nearly impossible to guess his location at any given time. His sudden visits to Inferno are said to be for hunting its savage, ruthless demons and taking their souls.”

“It is rumored he was once a resident of Paradiso with the power of creation, but witnessing his acts in Inferno, most would think him more suited for destruction. Though his principle purpose for collecting the souls of Inferno's denizens is to use them in making his weapons, he himself is never seen sporting anything but other than his bare fists: true testament to their unbridled power.”

Although the quote itself is a bit vague, and you could argue that Queen Sheba doesn’t classify as a “Demon” I would also argue that the creators weren’t taking that into account. Rodin isn’t a demon either, and they reference him being from paradiso as well. Personally I’m not too against the thought, Rodin being so strong they kicked him from Paradiso, Kamiya saying he was the strongest in the Bayonetta 1 verse on two separate occasions. His boss fights specifically made to be the hardest, Kamiya wanted him to be a “Secret boss” type character, so obvious thought was put into it.

There’s no ranking in Inferno, so we can’t make any logic based off of that. However I believe it’s not a far out assumption that he scales above, or directly to Sheba, and I’m more in favor of scaling to Sheba.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Hm, I see. That statement is a bit vague right now. While it does put him as a top tier among other demons, I do think that scaling him fully to Sheba is a bit too iffy. I think this rating fits Rodin and by extension Bayo 2 Bayo.

"At least 3-A, possibly higher"

As for Sheba and Omne scaling, I am neutral on it, but leaning towards agreeing.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’d be fine with that rating.

 

[Theglassman12]

btw want to clarify something before we move on.

@Crimson_Shadow101 @Comicgyal The main reason why possibly 2-C is a thing for bayonetta is mostly on the assumption that when the trinity of realities are merged, it merged the two time axis that was stated by Kamiya to have been made when Bayonetta sent Cereza back to the past with the main supporting argument for two timelines being merged is that balder foresaw the events happening. Whether or not the merging actually would affect the two timelines to begin with is up in the air since we don't know if it would merge both timelines to begin with, hence why I suggested possibly 2-C since it's not clear. Also with the new standard change for tier 2, merely merging the 3 realities itself wouldn't really count for tier 2 since nothing implies the 3 realms are completely separate space times with an entire past, present and future, it would make them stronger than normal 3-As at best.

 

[Comicgyal]

btw want to clarify something before we move on.

@Crimson_Shadow101 @Comicgyal The main reason why possibly 2-C is a thing for bayonetta is mostly on the assumption that when the trinity of realities are merged, it merged the two time axis that was stated by Kamiya to have been made when Bayonetta sent Cereza back to the past with the main supporting argument for two timelines being merged is that balder foresaw the events happening. Whether or not the merging actually would affect the two timelines to begin with is up in the air since we don't know if it would merge both timelines to begin with, hence why I suggested possibly 2-C since it's not clear. Also with the new standard change for tier 2, merely merging the 3 realities itself wouldn't really count for tier 2 since nothing implies the 3 realms are completely separate space times with an entire past, present and future, it would make them stronger than normal 3-As at best.

That’s untrue, because we know from Loptrs feat that the different timelines do have past, present, and future. Balder awakening the young Cereza happened in the past, around the witch hunts, which then awakened Bayonettas eye in the present. However we know that the timeline created by Balder has a future, since we see glimpses of said timeline in Bayonetta 2 in the prologue

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

btw want to clarify something before we move on.

@Crimson_Shadow101 @Comicgyal The main reason why possibly 2-C is a thing for bayonetta is mostly on the assumption that when the trinity of realities are merged, it merged the two time axis that was stated by Kamiya to have been made when Bayonetta sent Cereza back to the past with the main supporting argument for two timelines being merged is that balder foresaw the events happening. Whether or not the merging actually would affect the two timelines to begin with is up in the air since we don't know if it would merge both timelines to begin with, hence why I suggested possibly 2-C since it's not clear. Also with the new standard change for tier 2, merely merging the 3 realities itself wouldn't really count for tier 2 since nothing implies the 3 realms are completely separate space times with an entire past, present and future, it would make them stronger than normal 3-As at best.

The possibly 2-C won't be going away because the possibly 2-C comes from the separate time axis. I'm aware that merging just the trinity isn't tier 2. Merging the Trinity of one timeline alone wasn't tier 2 even before the change to standards. I would know since I started a thread a few years back trying to get a tier 2 bayo on the basis of trinity merging that was ultimately rejected.

 

[Comicgyal]

The possibly 2-C won't be going away because the possibly 2-C comes from the separate time axis. I'm aware that merging just the trinity isn't tier 2. Merging the Trinity of one timeline alone wasn't tier 2 even before the change to standards. I would know since I started a thread a few years back trying to get a tier 2 bayo on the basis of trinity merging that was ultimately rejected.

(Tbh you’d be kinda right, since the universes inside paradiso have their separate time flow along with an entirely different world with a different time axis. Even the baseline merging of trinity would be 2-C)

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

3 pages of debate disagree.

 

[Comicgyal]

They probably weren’t aware, but oh well, back on topic

 

[Theglassman12]

That does not remotely debunk my point. Did you read my point whatsoever? I said that merging the trinity of realities alone isn't 2-C, the possibility of merging the timelines, which isn't concretely stated anywhere, is where possibly 2-C comes from.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So is it going to be downgraded?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

So is it going to be downgraded?

the possibly 2-C won't be downgraded, no.

 

[Theglassman12]

Rodin being possibly 2-C is gonna be removed since Comic is ok with it, but the 3-A upgrades are likely gonna go through. Also weakened Sheba's key is gonna be nuked as well, don't see any reason for that to stay.

 

[Comicgyal]

ye

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

See no problem with it, I’d put a possibly on Rodin though.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yea he’s getting a 3-A possibly higher ranking

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

So is Loptr getting any tier change for keeping up with base bayo 2?

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, he should get a 3-A rating since realistically he should be above weakened Jubileus

 

[Comicgyal]

Essentially it’s this
Bayo 1 base: 3-A, Mftl (may be a + depending on how the witch time thread goes)
Bayo 2 base: 3-A, Mftl

Balder 1 base: 3-A, Mftl
Balder 2 base: 3-A, Mftl

Rodin 2: 3-A, possibly higher

Are we considering Jeanne scaling in bayo 1? I brought that up in the CRT

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I forgot Jeanne existed in all honesty.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Many do.

 

[Comicgyal]

Unfortunately, however Jeanne kept up with Bayonetta all throughout Bayo 1, only really losing in their last fight but that’s because she needed to help Bayonetta awaken her memories. The two are practically equals

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Jeanne basically fled and/or lost every single fight they had. Bayo essentially bested her every time. She might downscale but I don't know.