Mimihagi, Kototsu, and Pernida Abstract Existence?

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I suppose I'll ask him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am very uncertain about this. Governing over or controlling a concept is not remotely the same thing as being an embodiment of that concept.

Same. Gods who rule over certain elements or forces of nature aren't always embodiments either.

 

[AppleLord]

Pernida and Mimihagi had their bodies represent the embodiment of their concept showing that their abilities of Progress and Stagnation were usable not just against other but in themselves.

 

[Wokistan]

If one was to go with abstract existence, it'd be a type 3 variant. The two examples on the page seem to be described similarly to the bleach one.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's what I suggested, I'm just waiting for Assalt since Ant said he created the page.

 

[AppleLord]

Would Rei-O have type 3 as well for the concepts of Life & Death?

"If the Rei-o dies the concept of life and death created by him gets reverted to its former existence were such concepts didn't existed."

This includes the living world, the afterlife and every other dimension in the realm.

The limitations on the page fit him accuratly.

 

[Wokistan]

That isn't really abstract on its own, if his work is just undone with his death. If he doesn't embody it, unlike the descriptions for the other one, Rei-O would just have the manipulation abilities.

I feel like there's probably a disconnect between the intended wording for Type 3 and what's actually there, because it sorta implies that any concept manipulator with a specific concept they like could qualify for that.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

He would have to it via Mimihagi and Pernida, since those are his hands If accepted of course.

 

[AppleLord]

That isn't really abstract on its own, if his work is just undone with his death. If he doesn't embody it, unlike the descriptions for the other one, Rei-O would just have the manipulation abilities.
I feel like there's probably a disconnect between the intended wording for Type 3 and what's actually there, because it sorta implies that any concept manipulator with a specific concept they like could qualify for that.

But Rei-o created those concepts himself, he suddenly appeared as rejected by the old world itself into existence. The concepts of Life and death didn't exist in the old world. Rei-o then as requested by the 5 noble houses use his The Almighty to split the old existence into two worlds (The World of the Living and The Afterlife) each located in different dimensions and each one with their own space, sun, moon, stars and galaxies.

Important note: (Konpaku means soul in Japanese.)

The World of the Living and The Afterlife were made from different types of matter. World of the Living is made of Kishi (matter) while The Afterlife is made of Reishi. (spiritual matter, particles, etc.)

After this Rei-o willingly got sealed and they butcher his limps apart.

Source: Novel Chapter.

 

[Wokistan]

If an abstract being is literally his hand I'd think the rest of his body would be of a similar nature.

As is written on the page, I think this fits the definition of type 3. I do feel like the page may be conveying a message it doesn't intend to convey though, because the idea of abstract anyone with an affinity for a certain concept just seems really weird to me.

 

[AppleLord]

He would have to it via Mimihagi and Pernida, since those are his hands If accepted of course.

Right.

Prime Soul King had the embodiment of Stagnation (left hand), the embodiment of Progress (right hand), the embodiment of Life & Death (The Almighty Eyes), the embodiment of Hope (Heart), the embodiment of Reality (Brain), the the embodiment of matter (Soul Chain)

That's all the concepts govern by his body pieces because of this atrocity - "Well; I suppose that still wasn't enough. The ancestors; including Tsunayashiro; gouged out his heart and internal organs; and dismembered both his legs. Doing so, they destroyed his power; creating a king convenient for themselves."

It wasn't enough that he willingly agree to sealed himself for all eternity. Reminds of a certain deity not spoken here because of controversial matters.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Ehh I think you're going a bit too far now lol...

 

[AppleLord]

Ehh I think you're going a bit too far now lol...

Not really. I just posted what the source material said. Heart of the Soul King power influence the concept of Hope, the brain is in fact Gremmy from the light novels, and the soul chain is Aura, the others you should already know.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

No where did they imply any of that for Gerard nor Gremmy...

 

[AppleLord]

No where did they imply any of that for Gerard nor Gremmy...

Gerard is the heart and I confused his sword power of hope with his power which is manifestation of miracles. Yhwach didn't give him those powers, The Heart already had that power.

Gremmy's info comes from the light novels.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Dude, Gremmy is not the embodiment of reality ƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å.

 

[AppleLord]

Dude, Gremmy is not the embodiment of reality ƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å.

I just checked the entire novel again and the Rei-o's brain given his powers should be reality, imagination or something of that sort, but none are mentioned in the novels. I was mistaken about him, so he will have to stay as unknown.

 

[Antvasima]

I feel like there's probably a disconnect between the intended wording for Type 3 and what's actually there, because it sorta implies that any concept manipulator with a specific concept they like could qualify for that.

Yes, I also think that it likely needs to be reworded.

I would appreciate if you check the editing history for the Abstract Existence page, and ask the staff members responsible for writing it to comment here. You can tell them that I would appreciate the help.

 

[Antvasima]

It wasn't enough that he willingly agree to sealed himself for all eternity. Reminds of a certain deity not spoken here because of controversial matters.

?

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Is there going to be a rewording of the Abstract Existence page and are there other cases where something like Mimihagi and Pernida were previously accepted under a misinterpretation of the current wording?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Hold isn't that literally the point of type 3 Ant? From my knowledge Axel and I-No have Type 3 Abstract Existence for this same reason. Unless we plan on getting rid of type 3 as a whole I think this should be fine.

Rin mentioned this but idk.

 

[Antvasima]

Is there going to be a rewording of the Abstract Existence page and are there other cases where something like Mimihagi and Pernida were previously accepted under a misinterpretation of the current wording?

I would prefer if the page text is reworded so it is clarified that a character still needs to embody a concept in order to qualify.

We likely need a revision thread afterwards in order to find and modify the descriptions of such characters, yes.

 

[AppleLord]

It wasn't enough that he willingly agree to sealed himself for all eternity. Reminds of a certain deity not spoken here because of controversial matters.

?

That someone who willingly accepted death for our sins. We do not speak his name is a banned topic for controversy, and he doesn't have a page for that reason.

 

[Antvasima]

Oh, sorry.

 

[Wokistan]

Type 3 just seems inherently contradictory though. You can't really embody a concept or something while also just being able to be wacked, even if you have dominion over it and such.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I don't even know why type 3 exists tbh

 

[AppleLord]

Wokistan wrote: Type 3 just seems inherently contradictory though. You can't really embody a concept or something while also just being able to be wacked, even if you have dominion over it and such.

And if two embodiments of the same nature from different universes or timelines fight each other or a against a mortal?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm...Im extremely uncertain about this.

 

[Wokistan]

That's the thing. You can't be said to embody something when you fail to display said characteristics. If you are to be made up of something abstract like a concept but just get smacked by some non concept manipulator, that's a knock against you truly embodying that concept in the sense applicable to considering your very existence as an abstract one. Having dominion over your concept is all cool and good but it doesn't immedately make the user themselves an abstract being, just gives them power over things of an abstract nature.

As the wording is right now I am totally fine with these bleach chars being type 3. What I'm not fine with is the wording, because it seems inherently contradictory yto me.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What if the characters who "smack" the T3 AE characters just have the ability to do damage on a conceptual level?

 

[Wokistan]

That would need to be established though, and would cause issues for type 2s as well so there's be essentially no difference between the two. This is why I think type 3 was probably intended as something else, but assalt said a while ago he'd be busy fkr a while.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So lets assume for a moment that we would get rid of this T3 (Was made after I left the wiki iirc so I dont fully understand this either).

Would the current T3's just get T2 AE instead?

 

[Wokistan]

If I'm reading it properly:

• Type 1s exist only as an abstraction, and any manifestations are inconsequential. Need to directly mess with abstraction to even affect..
• Type 2's a bit like this, but the being can be affected through the manifestations, albeit not permenantly. However if you're weird like say Saint-14 and can kill stuff like that by shooting the manifestations with a gun I guess you're good to go, even if he can't even shoot a type 1 in the first place.
• Type 3 is like the 2 except the manifestations are integral, killing it kills the actual being. My issue with this is that this doesn't really seem like abstract existence, at all. Being able to be affected so permenantly by a decidedly not abstract form and yet being said to exist as an abstract seems bizarre.

 

[Wokistan]

The current T3s would stop being classed as abstract beings, at least how I'm envisioning it rn. I find it more likely that the thing would just get revised though.

 

[AppleLord]

But Thanos defeated astral embodiments in the comics without he himself been a astral embodiment of something.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Wokistan in terms of logic. The problem is that some stories completely ignore logic.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if you check the editing history for the Abstract Existence page, and ask the staff members responsible for writing it to comment here. You can tell them that I would appreciate the help.

Somebody still needs to do this for us to reach a proper conclusion.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I suppose i'll check for others since Assalt is busy.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

• The Kototsu governs time and space and protects the Dangai.
• Stated to be a creature of "Reason", im pretty sure it's made of the same material as the Dangai which is layers of time.
• And it manipulates time via BFR.

For now, commenting on this after reading this part a second time.

The first link doesnt have an english translation to it, just raw japanese. Could I see a translated version of this databook scan please?

The second link...im not sure what "a creature of reason" is supposed to mean actually. This could use more clarification.

The third link, this does not seem to be time manipulation based on what im looking at. Unless more context is given, the Kototsu itself doesnt seem to be actually sending anyone to different points of time, it's simply just chasing people away to where they would get sent to different points of time for being chased too far into the Dangai and entering boundaries where they're sent out of their time axis. For example, people chase an individual out of a cities boundaries and that person is now no longer inside the city. These random people wouldnt suddenly have BFR just because they chased someone out of someplace.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Professor

For now, commenting on this after reading this part a second time.

Okay.

The first link doesnt have an english translation to it, just raw japanese. Could I see a translated version of this databook scan please?

Doesn't exist in english, but it translates roughly to "Aizen destroys the Kototsu, which governs time and space, to demonstrate his powers as being beyond reason."

ÕÅ©Òéï = Govern, Administer, Rule

The second link...im not sure what "a creature of reason" is supposed to mean actually. This could use more clarification.

Means it isn't a being of spiritual energy as Gin stated, and like I posted above it's made out of layers of time pretty much.

The third link, this does not seem to be time manipulation based on what im looking at. Unless more context is given, the Kototsu itself doesnt seem to be actually sending anyone to different points of time.

Well yeah, it's a train. just walking through the Dangai isn't going to change time. Their 1st interaction with it flung them several days ahead into the future. Just it moving near you distorts time passively. Without prepartions you'd end up centuries from where u were before.

If it catches you, it's possible you'll end up in a random time period.