Mimihagi, Kototsu, and Pernida Abstract Existence?

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Mimihagi and Pernida

• Mimihagi is the right arm of the soul king, he governs "Stagnation" or the opposite of evolution and is able to manipulate if because of his affinity towards it.
• Pernida is the left arm on the soul king, he governs "Evolution" or the opposite of stillness.
• Has existed since the verse was created 100,000,000 years ago since he's the literal arm of the soul king. There was no balance between evolution, stagnation, life, nor death until the Soul King stabilised it.
  • "During that age, all of creation was in a state of ambiguity. There was neither life nor death; progressio and regression flickered to and fro. Swaying and swaying slowly; this waning and waxing world waited for a hundred million years to cool down."
  • "As the Rei-o continued to protect the world from the Hollows by annihilating them; to prevent the world from stagnating, the world itself began to slowly sink into chaos."

Cleaner

• The Kototsu governs time and space and protects the Dangai.
• Stated to be a creature of "Reason", im pretty sure it's made of the same material as the Dangai which is layers of time.
• And it manipulates time via BFR.

Thats about it I think, i'm not sure about it so i'm not expecting anything. But assuming it's considered legit I think it should be type 3.

Type 3: Embodies an abstraction, but the destruction of the former isn't needed in order to destroy or affect them. These characters do not rely on the abstraction to survive, but thanks to their affinity with it, they are able to manipulate it.

Edit - This will also scale to Yhwach's Mimihagi key via absorbing him entirely.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So um

Those scans dont prove that pernida or mimihagi can actually manipulate evolution or stagnation

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I was initially against this from the title as I thought it would mean they are the abstraction and you would need to destroy the abstraction to destroy them.

Type 3's definition seems fine since it says this it not the cases as they can still die without destroying the abstraction itself.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Pernida's power is evolution right on his page. As for Mimihagi don't think we have a page on stagnation.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Mimihage's main ability is literally Stagnation hence why Yhwach couldn't see him with the Almighty, and Pernida has been shown using Reactive Evolution. That should more than enough to add type 3 imo.

 

[M11UTD]

Mimihagi is the right arm and Pernida is the left.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Mimihagi is the right arm and Pernida is the left.

oof

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Never really liked Type 3 AE, given how arbitrary it is. But given our current definitions, this seems fine?

 

[Theglassman12]

I guess this seems like type 3 abstracts. Never recalled them being stated to thrive on stagnation or evolution to survive.

 

[HST_Master]

Type 3 seems fine I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

I am very uncertain about this. Governing over or controlling a concept is not remotely the same thing as being an embodiment of that concept.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agree with Ant.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I mean the Kototsu is made of layers of time, manipulates time, and governs it.

Mimihagi and Pernida used to be 1 entity that shaped the world from the chaotic mess it was in. Via the novel the hands have full control over progression and regression as far as I can tell.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Y'see that's my issue with Type 3 AE. What even qualifies as "embodying" something if you aren't actually dependant on it or vice-versa?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Don't know, I just read it and thought it fit lol.

 

[Antvasima]

Type 3 apparently just means that the fiction in question doesn't handle embodying a concept in a more "realistic" manner. Hence a superhero can somehow affect them by punching them in the face or somesuch.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well Pernida got cancer and died to rapid cell growth lol, Mimihagi got absorbed, Train got wrecked by Aizen via blowing up in an unknown manner.

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem like abstract concepts at all then, just physical beings with influence over those concepts.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'll wait and see what the others think then since some agreed it somewhat qualifies for type 3 definition.

 

[KazuiK]

I found that the stagnation of Mimihagi was something more like Acausality, since it governs stagnation and is immune to the almighty and causal manipulation of Orihime.

 

[Antvasima]

I was initially against this from the title as I thought it would mean they are the abstraction and you would need to destroy the abstraction to destroy them.

Type 3's definition seems fine since it says this it not the cases as they can still die without destroying the abstraction itself.

They should still have to be the abstraction itself for type 3 though. It is simply handled in an illogical manner within the story.

 

[Sekkonds.]

do we even have a page for the kototsu to give it this ability?

 

[KazuiK]

and it seems, only kototsu equals type 3

 

[AppleLord]

Didn't the Soul King created the concept of life and death in the first place by light novel lore?

 

[Dr.Fix]

Didn't the Soul King created the concept of life and death in the first place by light novel lore?

And with its destruction, that concept would also end.

 

[TataHakai]

Didn't the Soul King created the concept of life and death in the first place by light novel lore?

I think the concept just came naturally as a result of the creation of the worlds, i don't think the soul king literally created life and death as concepts, more or so the worlds being created allowed there to be life and death.

 

[AppleLord]

Didn't the Soul King created the concept of life and death in the first place by light novel lore?

I think the concept just came naturally as a result of the creation of the worlds, i don't think the soul king literally created life and death as concepts, more or so the worlds being created allowed there to be life and death.

But it's written that neither life and death existed. Rei-o (Soul King) created the worlds by splitting the old existence but the result of that action placed the 2 worlds (The World of the Living and The Afterlife) in different dimensions each one with their own space, sun, moon, stars and galaxies. And the World of the Living and The Afterlife were made from different types of matter. World of the Living is made of Kishi while The Afterlife is made of Reishi.

Rei-o did all of this with The Almighty by the 5 noble houses request before willingly getting sealed and butcher.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

...This is gonna be a doozy

 

[AppleLord]

We should wait until the novel revision thread happens since this topic will touch the lore from the light novels.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

How long until the Novel finishes getting translated ?

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Novels are basically done at this point

 

[Promestein]

Kototsu being made out of layers of time =/= Abstract Existence, some weird Non-Corporeal at best

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Promestein.

 

[AppleLord]

Mimihagi and Pernida definitely fall under Abstract Existence.

"Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regenerationn or control over the abstraction"

Both hands of the Rei-o are immortal, Eons of years old in science an eon is about a billion years, so 2 billion years because is plural, both have shown the ability to regenerate in different forms, and each one controls an concept; stagnation/stillness and progress/evolution.

 

[AppleLord]

"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."- Light Novel, and from the Manga.

Superpower wiki used a picture of Mimihagi and listed him as governor of that concept. In the Bleach manga both hands demonstrated their abilities of stagnation and progress. What's next?

 

[Antvasima]

Immortality and control over a concept are obviously not propf of actually being the concept on its own, and we do not use the Superpower wiki as evidence.

We should preferably close this thread.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Hold isn't that literally the point of type 3 Ant? From my knowledge Axel and I-No have Type 3 Abstract Existence for this same reason. Unless we plan on getting rid of type 3 as a whole I think this should be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

No, it isn't. A character still has to actially embody a concept itself to get abstract existence. That is the entire point of the ability.

Also, several wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Going by the profiles and such it does seem accurate, especially under the powers and abilities section for Mimihage at least.


Mimihagi governs' stagnation, the stopping of development, growth, progress, and change; as it :represents stillness, it can prevent whatever that tries to change or develop from happening. Mimihagi can accomplish this via symbosis with whatever being it is attached to.


I'm not gonna try to push this obviously as I'm not invested or too knowledgeable about Bleach ( I plan on reading the Manga during the summer. ) but rather out of my own curiosity on how Abstract Existence works and such so my apologies if I come off as stubborn or anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as far as I understand, Abstract Existence means that a character is the embodiment of a fundamental concept. The different types are there to separate the versions of how different fiction handles this.

However, you should probably ask Assaltwaffle to comment here about it. I think that he was involved in writing the page.