Medaka Box Revisions Part 1 (Key Additions, Attack Potency and minor Speed revisions)

[FoxySonicMaster108]

With the current state of the Medaka Box profiles, I think it’s been long overdue for a revision, in multiple areas. Due to this fact, I will be splitting this overhaul into two or three parts (some of which will take longer to make than others). Starting with this one, based on the last thread.

Key Additions and Adjustments:

A lot of the keys for the characters are mostly fine, except for a few. Such as Medaka Kurokami, having keys for her God Modes, which makes no sense. The keys should be labeled through arcs (like Student Council Executive arc, Thirteen Party Arc, etc) where applicable. Keep in mind it mostly applies to characters who go through a lot of change through the story (Medaka, Zenkichi, Kumagawa, etc). So Medaka for example would have keys like this:

Spoiler: Medaka Example

Key: Student Council Executive Arc | Thirteen Party Arc | Kumagawa Incident Arc | Kurokami Medaka's Successor-Jet Black Bride Arc | Unknown Shiranui Arc | Post Iihiko Fight

I’ll elaborate more on Medaka's last key in the next section (AP And Dura)

Here's a list of characters that will get key changes, either by arcs or other changes:

1. Medaka Kurokami (Keys for arcs God Mode keys get removed)
2. Zenkichi Hitoyoshi (One or two more keys for other arcs, Altered God Mode key gets removed)
3. Iihiko Shishime (New key for Hansode's body, will elaborate on that in the next section)
4. Misogi Kumagawa (One or two more keys for other arcs)

Everyone else is mostly okay, but will need some of their keys renamed (like Munakata Kei for example, who doesn't change that much between Kurokami Successor and Unknown Shiranui as far as I can tell.)

Attack Potency and Durability:

Everyone that is scaled to 8-B gets nerfed down to 9-A via this calculation, as the characters being 8-B as early as the Student Council Executive arc is inconsistent for reasons which were mentioned in other threads (and was agreed upon in the second thread).

Aside from that. Medaka’s 5-C rating should not be a possibly. It’s clear that she did destroy the moon, as there is no mention of assistance in actually destroying it, even after she returns to Hakoniwa Academy. The Low 5-B durability rating also needs to go, due to the fact we don’t actually know what kind of damage the moon would’ve done to the Earth, it could’ve life wiped for all we know, which is usually below 5-C. Also the moon level feat would either apply for her “Unknown Shiranui Arc” key or “Post Iihiko Fight” key, nowhere else.

Iihiko should be At least High 8-C likely higher (or maybe likely 5-C) based on this calculation, given how casual the feat was, I think "likely higher" is justified but only in one key, the one after he possesses Hansode’s body, as he was confused by the power gap compared to his old body and he actually managed to hurt End God Medaka physically without hax, so he could likely scale to 5-C. However, I'm not against Iihiko just not scaling to 5-C at all.

The Unknown AP for physical stats should be kept until we can get some new calculations. So, something like Unknown, at least 9-A physically for Kumagawa Incident Arc and onward characters should work.

Speed:

This doesn’t have to be changed that much from what I can see, but scaling should be elaborated on given the new keys.

Student Council Executive Arc-Kumagawa Incident Arc characters characters are Hypersonic+
Kurokami Successor Arc and onward characters are Relativistic

There are a few exceptions to this, such as Iihiko who speed blitzes Medaka, and thinks of her Kurokami Phantom as a technique of “moving slowly”, which would make him FTL, that kind of stuff doesn’t change.

TLDR; Everyone goes from 8-B to 9-A, some of the cast that go through significant change get new keys, Iihiko goes to High 8-C, likely higher (or likely 5-C) in Hansode’s body. Medaka’s 5-C rating goes from possibly to just plain 5-C in either Unknown Shiranui Arc or after the Iihiko fight. Lastly, Speed gets changed around to accommodate for these new keys.

I’m saving Powers & Abilities for the second part!

Agree: (1) Udlmaster
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa @Catzlaflame @Iapitus_The_Impaler @Firephoenixearl @Creaturemaster971 @Udlmaster @GojiBoyForever @InfiniteSped

What do you think about this?

 

[Udlmaster]

This seems fine.

I feel like we could do more radical changes now with Medaka Box, something to discuss at another time perhaps, but I feel like we've come a long way from our skittishness towards Ajimu Najimi and Medaka Box and treating it as something extraordinary beyond our ability to encapsulate because a particular character just has a lot of abilities.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I feel like we could do more radical changes now with Medaka Box, something to discuss at another time perhaps, but I feel like we've come a long way from our skittishness towards Ajimu Najimi and Medaka Box and treating it as something extraordinary beyond our ability to encapsulate because a particular character just has a lot of abilities.

I do agree with that. I never really viewed characters, even Ajimu, as unscalable, it’s just a manga like many that just has some inconsistencies (maybe a bit more than others but eh)

Regardless of that, I’ll put you in agree (with what I assume is everything)

 

[Agnaa]

This seems fine.

I feel like we could do more radical changes now with Medaka Box, something to discuss at another time perhaps, but I feel like we've come a long way from our skittishness towards Ajimu Najimi and Medaka Box and treating it as something extraordinary beyond our ability to encapsulate because a particular character just has a lot of abilities.

That's not the issue (and hasn't been, ever since we got profiles for Yu Otosaka, Oryx the Taken King, or Scion from Worm).

The issue is that we're only shown how about a dozen of her abilities work. One of them is great, three of them are decent, and the rest are fluff. On top of that, we've been given three-word descriptions for about 700 more abilities.

This leaves the gaps between "indexing her as she's actually shown", "indexing her based on the loosest threads we can pick up", and "indexing her based on headcanon of how many of those quadrillions of abilities should inevitably been broken" as much wider than we get for other verses. So when we inevitably go with the first of those options, people are liable to get upset, and make a lot of annoying CRTs trying to push her towards the second of those. I think those other similar characters don't face that because they're already concretely given a lotta good shit.

And hell, I think our current profile adequately captures her according to the first of those. She's just match banned since matches would highlight how the nods towards the latter two interpretations aren't concretely actually included. But given how you're talking about revising her profile, and not just unbanning her, it kinda sounds like you wanna move her towards the latter, which I'd disagree with. Not because "many abilities is bad", but because those abilities aren't sufficiently canonically backed.

Anyway, onto my...

Thoughts on the Actual Thread​

Changing Keys​

Good. Needed to happen. I'd just warn Foxy to keep an eye on other characters who will need more keys from this (such as Naze). I can try to build a full list if needed based on memory, but I'd rather not.

8-B to 9-A​

Sure. As before, my only hesitation with applying this is the possibility that other feats land higher, but I'm struggling to think of too many. Emukae gets some big feats through decay, but I'm not sure if anyone scales; maybe the plant monster she made is a big feat that could get something? I'd also keep an eye on the Kurokami Successor Arc (both Medaka and Ajimu lift things there), and the start of the Jet Black Bride Arc (with Medaka's sporting feats). But I'm not sure if anything here actually lands above.

5-C Should Be Solid​

imo the big problem with this feat's solidity is the scaling around it. There's a lot supporting her being that strong, but just beforehand she got hurt badly by Iihiko, and after she comes back she gets repeatedly scratched up by almost every character that's ever been relevant. Making things a bit yuckier, it's a really huge jump without there really being a canonical mention of it (hell, her middle-school self was fighting on par with Kotobuki, kinda implying that she hasn't gotten stronger outside of hax since, like, chapter 40-90, whenever she caught up with that point).

But I do think putting the weak link in the chain as that of scaling to the entire cast is probably a better way of handling it. So yeah, make that a solid rating for her.

Iihiko as High 8-C, likely higher/5-C​

I'm kinda fine with this either way. From the narrative presentation, Medaka did just come off of a fight with Kakegae, so it feels tough to say that she got a boost from Unknown, at least 9-A to 5-C in that moment. But it's easier to swallow that she went from unquantifiably above 9-A, to High 8-C with the heart style amp (which is what I'd suggest as her key for that arc). From which it's still rough, but a bit easier, to take her going up to 5-C in the time where she resolved to destroy the moon, pondered her life with Iihiko's echo, and endured her trip up there.

All of which is to say that I'd want Iihiko to be 9-A in his first key, High 8-C in the second, with High 8-C attack reflection functioning in both.

Alleged Speed Changes​

I don't actually see any functional speed changes in the stuff you mentioned. Unless you want it to automatically apply to everyone, where I think we should more try to map it out; whoever's in a scaling chain that ends with pre-Successor Medaka gets Hypersonic+, whoever's in a scaling chain that ends with Successor-and-onwards Medaka gets Relativistic, whoever's in a scaling chain that ends with Kurokami Phantom gets FTL.

tl;dr​

Agree, but:

• More characters need more keys.
• Keep an eye out for other feats above 9-A.
• 5-C should be after the Iihiko fight, Iihiko's first key should be 9-A, and Medaka should hit High 8-C with the heart style.
• Speed changes should be based on scaling chains, not presence in an arc.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa's conclusions here seem fine to me.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Changing Keys​

Good. Needed to happen. I'd just warn Foxy to keep an eye on other characters who will need more keys from this (such as Naze). I can try to build a full list if needed based on memory, but I'd rather not.

You are free to list them if you wish. Most of the profiles should be okay though, I think. For Naze specifically, I don’t remember her scaling changing until the Jet Black Bride arc comes around, and she doesn’t fight in the arcs prior to Kumagawa Incident Arc.

There might be something in Unknown Shiranui though idk

EDIT: there isn’t.

8-B to 9-A​

Sure. As before, my only hesitation with applying this is the possibility that other feats land higher, but I'm struggling to think of too many. Emukae gets some big feats through decay, but I'm not sure if anyone scales; maybe the plant monster she made is a big feat that could get something? I'd also keep an eye on the Kurokami Successor Arc (both Medaka and Ajimu lift things there), and the start of the Jet Black Bride Arc (with Medaka's sporting feats). But I'm not sure if anything here actually lands above.

As of right now (just going through calcs we do have), I haven’t found anything beyond 9-A, and the plant monster Emukae creates shouldn’t scale to physical AP, but definitely for something like Plant Manipulation I’d say. The lifting feats in those arcs from what I remember wouldn’t change the lifting strength. But I’ll probably check that back on that.

5-C Should Be Solid​

imo the big problem with this feat's solidity is the scaling around it. There's a lot supporting her being that strong, but just beforehand she got hurt badly by Iihiko, and after she comes back she gets repeatedly scratched up by almost every character that's ever been relevant. Making things a bit yuckier, it's a really huge jump without there really being a canonical mention of it (hell, her middle-school self was fighting on par with Kotobuki, kinda implying that she hasn't gotten stronger outside of hax since, like, chapter 40-90, whenever she caught up with that point).

But I do think putting the weak link in the chain as that of scaling to the entire cast is probably a better way of handling it. So yeah, make that a solid rating for her.

This makes sense.

Iihiko as High 8-C, likely higher/5-C​

I'm kinda fine with this either way. From the narrative presentation, Medaka did just come off of a fight with Kakegae, so it feels tough to say that she got a boost from Unknown, at least 9-A to 5-C in that moment. But it's easier to swallow that she went from unquantifiably above 9-A, to High 8-C with the heart style amp (which is what I'd suggest as her key for that arc). From which it's still rough, but a bit easier, to take her going up to 5-C in the time where she resolved to destroy the moon, pondered her life with Iihiko's echo, and endured her trip up there.

All of which is to say that I'd want Iihiko to be 9-A in his first key, High 8-C in the second, with High 8-C attack reflection functioning in both.

This is good as well. I’ll go with High 8-C likely higher for Hansode Iihiko in that case.

Alleged Speed Changes​

I don't actually see any functional speed changes in the stuff you mentioned. Unless you want it to automatically apply to everyone, where I think we should more try to map it out; whoever's in a scaling chain that ends with pre-Successor Medaka gets Hypersonic+, whoever's in a scaling chain that ends with Successor-and-onwards Medaka gets Relativistic, whoever's in a scaling chain that ends with Kurokami Phantom gets FTL.

I admittedly did not word the speed stuff very well (“characters characters” lol) I don’t mean a character appearing in Kurokami Successor or Jet Black Bride arc would suddenly make them Relativistic, so yeah I agree.

 

[Agnaa]

You are free to list them if you wish.

I mean, I rather wouldn't

For Naze specifically, I don’t remember her scaling changing until the Jet Black Bride arc comes around, and she doesn’t fight in the arcs prior to Kumagawa Incident Arc. There might be something in Unknown Shiranui though.

Oh wow I'm dumb, didn't realise she already had two keys.

Looking at it, I actually think it might be nice to revise her profile to have one extra key, since she didn't really keep her Thirteen Party Arc kit on her through Kumagawa Incident and beyond. I think she still did a few combat-ish things there that could get her enough ratings. If not, just slap on unknowns and rearrange her hax.

So, diving into other keys more critically, Munakata Kei's second key should be renamed to Kurokami Successor Arc, Mukae Emukae should get a Jet Black Bride Arc key, since she outfought Naze against Mogura, which should relate to speed/strength stuff since Mogura wasn't using her abilities. That should be it, unless Hansode Shiranui has stuff from an earlier arc that implies an earlier speed rating.

As of right now (just going through calcs we do have), I haven’t found anything beyond 9-A, and the plant monster Emukae creates shouldn’t scale to physical AP, but definitely for something like Plant Manipulation I’d say.

Not to Emukae's physical AP, but to the physical AP of those who fought against it.

The lifting feats in those arcs from what I remember wouldn’t change the lifting strength. But I’ll probably check that back on that.

They wouldn't, but I wonder if there's one that could work as an AP upgrade through having decent enough speed.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Looking at it, I actually think it might be nice to revise her profile to have one extra key, since she didn't really keep her Thirteen Party Arc kit on her through Kumagawa Incident and beyond. I think she still did a few combat-ish things there that could get her enough ratings. If not, just slap on unknowns and rearrange her hax.

Aside from her falling from a bunch of floors in the Thirteen Party arc, there isn’t much to go off of for statistics I feel. So Unknown it is (unless I find something that shows otherwise)

So, diving into other keys more critically, Munakata Kei's second key should be renamed to Kurokami Successor Arc, Mukae Emukae should get a Jet Black Bride Arc key, since she outfought Naze against Mogura, which should relate to speed/strength stuff since Mogura wasn't using her abilities. That should be it, unless Hansode Shiranui has stuff from an earlier arc that implies an earlier speed rating.

I agree with this, but I don’t remember any instance of Hansode in combat til Unknown Shiranui, and her powers don’t change, so I think she can be left alone.

Not to Emukae's physical AP, but to the physical AP of those who fought against it.

Okay, that makes more sense actually. Although the entire thing of Hitomi fighting the giant plant monster (with a chainsaw, love it) was somewhat off screened. Although she did seem a little scuffed after, but not crazy damaged or anything to me. I guess downscaling from it would be fine or something, but I’m not sure.

They wouldn't, but I wonder if there's one that could work as an AP upgrade through having decent enough speed.

Oh that’s what you meant, there might be.

 

[Agnaa]

Aside from her falling from a bunch of floors in the Thirteen Party arc, there isn’t much to go off of for statistics I feel. So Unknown it is (unless I find something that shows otherwise)

That's definitely At least 9-B. And watching fights would give her scaling in perception speed at least (I think she might intercede at some point with Koga/Medaka that'd give her speed scaling, but if that's just talk-no-jutsu then blargh).

Okay, that makes more sense actually. Although the entire thing of Hitomi fighting the giant plant monster (with a chainsaw, love it) was somewhat off screened. Although she did seem a little scuffed after, but not crazy damaged or anything to me. I guess downscaling from it would be fine or something, but I’m not sure.

Hm, if that's all we have it might be too dubious.

 

[Udlmaster]

And hell, I think our current profile adequately captures her according to the first of those. She's just match banned since matches would highlight how the nods towards the latter two interpretations aren't concretely actually included. But given how you're talking about revising her profile, and not just unbanning her, it kinda sounds like you wanna move her towards the latter, which I'd disagree with. Not because "many abilities is bad", but because those abilities aren't sufficiently canonically backed.

One of the major reasons on why I've not really bothered touching the profile is because Medaka Box requires someone fluent in Japanese to be a go-between, because not only are things better explained in Japanese, but also there's meanings that are completely left out and when translated make absolutely no sense.

This goes so far as to cause the later parts of the story to be completely incoherent because the word play that characters use only work IN Japanese.

I've since however got a Japanese friend who'll help me with the task.

On the point of canonically backed, we do know the 700+ abilities are real, and while it's harder to see their effects, since Ajimu Najimi spams around 100 each time, there is a Databook which explains each ability Najimi uses.

This is the main thing I want to focus on, the Databook itself rather than what we can read in panels, since the Databook explains each ability, the only issue is that this databook is practically impossible to find in English or Japanese, so that's why I've not made any moves yet, I simply lack the tools to do it.

 

[Agnaa]

On the point of canonically backed, we do know the 700+ abilities are real, and while it's harder to see their effects, since Ajimu Najimi spams around 100 each time, there is a Databook which explains each ability Najimi uses.

This is the main thing I want to focus on, the Databook itself rather than what we can read in panels, since the Databook explains each ability, the only issue is that this databook is practically impossible to find in English or Japanese, so that's why I've not made any moves yet, I simply lack the tools to do it.

No, that's not true. The databook just contains occasional comments from the author on some abilities. These don't actually tell us how they're used, they're typically just jokes.

You can see all of these translated alongside the list of the abilities on Ajimu's page on the Medaka Box Wiki.

And while yeah, Medaka Books (the collective name for both the traditional-style guidebook, and the LN-style "dictionary of the series") probably has a lot of nice information, it's hard to get someone to translate it. I would pay for a translation, and pay for someone's copy, if they were willing to translate it. But prices for this are really high, and no-one else seems to want to split the costs with me.

FYI, here are (all?) the scans of the traditional guidebook portion of it, in addition to which the bonus manga strips from the guidebook (omake box) have been translated, and can be found here. Only one or two of which has even a minor degree of relevance to our profiles.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What Medaka destroying the Moon is concerned: Do we have any indication of how she did that?
Because that's my primary concern.
Medaka has a ton of abilities. She could have used a hax abnormality to accomplish or aid with accomplishing it. Or she could have used one or a combination of several skills to produce a lot of force. Or she could just have punched it really hard. (or more farfetched options like her further developing her grasp on styles)
Because depending on how she did things, destroying the moon gets different ratings. If it's done using hax, she might get nothing from that. If it's done via skills, she might have the AP rating but just for when she is using those specific skills. And if it's done via punching she gets the AP rating, but also SS and Dura as well.

 

[Agnaa]

What Medaka destroying the Moon is concerned: Do we have any indication of how she did that?
Because that's my primary concern.
Medaka has a ton of abilities. She could have used a hax abnormality to accomplish or aid with accomplishing it. Or she could have used one or a combination of several skills to produce a lot of force. Or she could just have punched it really hard. (or more farfetched options like her further developing her grasp on styles)
Because depending on how she did things, destroying the moon gets different ratings. If it's done using hax, she might get nothing from that. If it's done via skills, she might have the AP rating but just for when she is using those specific skills. And if it's done via punching she gets the AP rating, but also SS and Dura as well.

Yes! I recently discovered that one of the alt covers for the manga shows it exploding, which doesn't seem to concord with any of her known toolset except "punch it very hard".

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

What Medaka destroying the Moon is concerned: Do we have any indication of how she did that?

Yeah, given the alt cover of Volume 21, which shows the moon actually being destroyed, instead of just it vanishing one page later like in the manga.

And plus, she mentions herself she did destroy it, and no one else is mentioned to have helped her in actually destroying it, so yeah.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

That's definitely At least 9-B. And watching fights would give her scaling in perception speed at least (I think she might intercede at some point with Koga/Medaka that'd give her speed scaling, but if that's just talk-no-jutsu then blargh).

I do agree. I do remember Naze tried to engage in combat with Medaka, but she kinda just got slapped down once and that was that, so yeah.

Hm, if that's all we have it might be too dubious.

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too, we don’t know how much damage Hitomi caused to the plant monster, which sucks.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yes! I recently discovered that one of the alt covers for the manga shows it exploding, which doesn't seem to concord with any of her known toolset except "punch it very hard".

That isn't really true. There are skills she has which could potentially aid in exploding something. Medaka is a genius, so it's not like it's beyond her to get creative if she needs to.
From using All Fiction to erase the moons "sturdiness" via some abstract erasure to using some of the barely explained Ajimu skills she has copied, like manipulating boiling point or using one of the universe ruling/creation skills, I think there are options.

I think it's a little speculative to say that Medaka, after copying most of the verse's skills, definitely has nothing that can aid with breaking other than just punching.

 

[Agnaa]

That isn't really true. There are skills she has which could potentially aid in exploding something. Medaka is a genius, so it's not like it's beyond her to get creative if she needs to.
From using All Fiction to erase the moons "sturdiness" via some abstract erasure to using some of the barely explained Ajimu skills she has copied, like manipulating boiling point or using one of the universe ruling/creation skills, I think there are options.

I think it's a little speculative to say that Medaka, after copying most of the verse's skills, definitely has nothing that can aid with breaking other than just punching.

On the contrary, I think it's rather speculative to invent applications that are nothing like things we've seen canonically (or which we'd let fly in a thread) that could let her do that.

The only things I can see as kind of plausible are:

1. Some of her other physical abilities (Vocal Cannon, Theme Song, Kurokami Phantom) being amped to the point where they can destroy the moon.
   • At that point, they're probably not insurmountably above her baseline physicals, so why draw a distinction?
2. Some combination of Ice Fire and Raff-Rafflesia amped to the point where they can destroy the moon.
   • This feels a lot more unjustified than just a physical amp. Plus, I don't think we've ever really seen abilities like this getting amped over the course of the series. Outside of Kumagawa reawakening erased powers, and incorporating newly-acquired ones. And Medaka losing the "if you copy a minus your personality will turn to shit" limitation. EDIT: Especially given how Medaka copies skills in fully-mastered forms, there fundamentally shouldn't be room for them to increase in scope like this; she's meant to render further training pointless.
3. Saying that her Style copying got way better, and that she was conscious enough during Kakegae/Zenkichi's fight with Iihiko to be able to copy Contradictory Conjunction (as that was the only time she ever saw/heard about it), and that Contradictory Conjunction is strong enough to work on the moon.
   • Immensely speculative, gives her more abilities, and buffs other characters, too.

 

[SweetDao]

I would pay for a translation, and pay for someone's copy, if they were willing to translate it. But prices for this are really high, and no-one else seems to want to split the costs with me.

A bit off-topic, but how much would it cost typically?

 

[Agnaa]

A bit off-topic, but how much would it cost typically?

Books typically cost ~$4k USD from a competent translator.

In this case it might be a bit less since it's not a fully text-based book; it's half guidebook, but I'd still expect it to land in like the $3k range.

EDIT: This is for Nisio books specifically. His shit usually takes extra work to translate, so most translators will ask for a higher rate after getting through a few dozen pages.

 

[SweetDao]

Books typically cost ~$4k USD from a competent translator.

In this case it might be a bit less since it's not a fully text-based book; it's half guidebook, but I'd still expect it to land in like the $3k range.

Oof... Yeah, that's a lot. I thought I could maybe help a bit with some money, but that's clearly out of my range, sadly. Wouldn't it be more effective to see with MTL first which part would be interesting, instead of translating the whole thing?

 

[Agnaa]

If you only cared about battleboarding, could stomach reading the entire thing with the shitty MTL, and had no shame in asking a translator to only work on specific, battleboarding-related parts.

Alas, none of those apply to me, so I'll only come to it after I get through stuff I can split with other people.

 

[SweetDao]

If you only cared about battleboarding, could stomach reading the entire thing with the shitty MTL, and had no shame in asking a translator to only work on specific, battleboarding-related parts.

I sense a hint of disgust...

 

[DontTalkDT]

On the contrary, I think it's rather speculative to invent applications that are nothing like things we've seen canonically (or which we'd let fly in a thread) that could let her do that.

I think this would only be a valid point if her punching the moon were close to stats she has anyway. As it stands it's many many orders of magnitude beyond what she has shown otherwise, so that is pretty much also inventing an application of a power beyond all other showings. The power in this case is just the power of superhuman physical characteristics.

When dealing with an outlier, disregarding explanation via unusual application of known powers altogether doesn't seem like a justified approach IMO.

Some of her other physical abilities (Vocal Cannon, Theme Song, Kurokami Phantom) being amped to the point where they can destroy the moon.

• At that point, they're probably not insurmountably above her baseline physicals, so why draw a distinction?

I don't think we have a UES that justifies scaling physicals that way.

Saying that her Style copying got way better, and that she was conscious enough during Kakegae/Zenkichi's fight with Iihiko to be able to copy Contradictory Conjunction (as that was the only time she ever saw/heard about it), and that Contradictory Conjunction is strong enough to work on the moon.

• Immensely speculative, gives her more abilities, and buffs other characters, too.

Doesn't need to be copying. She was already figuring out styles to some degree and might have made her own. And yeah, the most speculative one.

That said, you kinda ignored the options I already gave. She has copied many skills from Ajimu and we have no idea of the scope of those skills. It could easily and plausibly have used one or a combination of multiple of those to accomplish it. As we don't know anything about the scope of those abilities, there is no reason to assume it would be beyond their scope either.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I agree with Agnaa on this one. As for myself, we can’t even prove Medaka was amped during that. There isn’t any mention of any sort of power (style or otherwise) that Medaka used to destroy the moon, even the guides (it was MTL so it might be off) don’t mention that kind of thing, just the fact she had to board a rocket alone to get there which is already mentioned in the manga (which also contains a helmet to breathe as well given the other images on the alt cover of Volume 21)

 

[Agnaa]

I think this would only be a valid point if her punching the moon were close to stats she has anyway. As it stands it's many many orders of magnitude beyond what she has shown otherwise, so that is pretty much also inventing an application of a power beyond all other showings. The power in this case is just the power of superhuman physical characteristics.

When dealing with an outlier, disregarding explanation via unusual application of known powers altogether doesn't seem like a justified approach IMO.

They're not unusual applications, they're complete fanfic.

If you were appealing to a one-off usage that was briefly suggested by a character who didn't have the ability, I would be fine with going to it. But you're just inventing stuff completely disconnected from the text.

I don't think we have a UES that justifies scaling physicals that way.

Those are all physical abilities of hers. One is just shouting very loud (intrinsically relying on her physicals), the other two would be amplifying her speed to hit harder, which she's shown to be able to endure with noticeable damage to herself.

You don't need a UES for that, just every reaction having an equal and opposite reaction.

That said, you kinda ignored the options I already gave. She has copied many skills from Ajimu and we have no idea of the scope of those skills. It could easily and plausibly have used one or a combination of multiple of those to accomplish it. As we don't know anything about the scope of those abilities, there is no reason to assume it would be beyond their scope either.

For all the ones you're talking about, we've literally seen them be used on-screen without nuking a moon-sized portion of the environment. One of the few things we know about their scope is that they'd have to involve, like, less than tier 7 environmental destruction.

I was more sympathetic to this view before seeing the moon punch, since it easily could've been something like using AF on the moon, but now that stuff like that's ruled out, I think it'd be a solid physical tier.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I also agree with Agnaa on this

 

[Livinmeme]

If I renember correctly, there was a calc of medaka destroying the moon, that put her at 5-B

 

[Creaturemaster971]

For all the ones you're talking about, we've literally seen them be used on-screen without nuking a moon-sized portion of the environment. One of the few things we know about their scope is that they'd have to involve, like, less than tier 7 environmental destruction.

She simply used her No Nuking (核爆撃はありません [ノンニュキング] , No Nyukingu) skill

It is way too fun to come up with these

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

If I renember correctly, there was a calc of medaka destroying the moon, that put her at 5-B

There is, but it was more rejected than accepted, so that’s out.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Agnaa]

What are the conclusions here so far?

I largely agree with the key changes, and the downgrade to 9-A. I think Iihiko should be unknown at least 9-A in his first key, High 8-C likely higher in his second. I don't know of any actual speed changes that should be made.

I agree with giving Medaka a solid 5-C rating, but DT disagrees, although he hasn't yet responded to my latest message on the topic.

Other staff haven't commented. Non-staff comments largely agree with me or the OP (who himself seems pretty fine with the positions I've laid out).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that your suggestions seem fine here.