Medaka Box changes

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[Agnaa]

tl;dr this thread notices some actual issues, blunders on others, and misses some answers.

8-B sucks. I summarized why here. Your identification is wrong, it isn't because of Unzen's super balls; that Unzen calc's flawed in a few ways. It assumed that Unzen intended to blow up that entire wing of the school, when that's exactly not what he was planning to do, it makes no sense to assume that he was. Plus, it forgets to divide the value by three, which is the only way it scales, which would bring it down to High 8-C+. On top of that, I think Medaka struggling with the strings makes her going that high early on inconsistent.

The profiles are correct with what they say; they're 8-B because ~8 years ago they assumed that Medaka dragging around the school landed at that level.

Unzen was pretty clearly destroying the wall with physical strength, the other uses of his balls (not all of his balls explode) come from his hand, since he's throwing them, where in that case he just kicked the wall.

And as an aside, the ship-cutting feat being too difficult isn't actually a contradiction for 8-B; that was calced at 8-A.

I agree with Medaka and Iihiko being stronger, but even then, they'd only get to High 8-C, since that's where the hospital feat lands.

I don't think that Zenkichi/Kumagawa/etc. are actually THAT much weaker than Medaka in later points of the series, I think you're stretching that statement about Medaka a bit absurdly far, but I haven't thought about a proper scaling chain for the series too much.

Fair enough for those speed calcs having issues, but changing them wouldn't be a major downgrade. Both reasons given would just cut them in half.

If you read the scene carefully, I believe that Kurokami Phantom doesn't actually go at the speed of sound. Here's the scans I'll be commenting on.

• Shigusa goes "You must have moved faster than light and sound".
• Medaka answers "Of course not, a human couldn't do that, I just aimed for when you blinked".
• Shigusa responds "I obviously wouldn't have blinked. Plus, you were clearly damaged by the sonic boom".
• Medaka says "I wasn't damaged by the sonic boom, that's just because I exerted them a lot. I'm just a normal person, there's no way I could move at the speed of light".

This is CLEARLY just Medaka being in denial of the fact that she moved at the speed of light. You can't even interpret this as her moving at the speed of sound, since she denies that too.

Which may have you wondering, why would Medaka copy Hinokage's ability to move at the speed of light, if she can already do that? That version is said to save on speed, and I forget where it's said, but our profiles currently mention that it lets her used it without any physical strain or damage, which seems to be true from the times we see it used.

I'd also say that cutting sound is impressive for other reasons; it's kinda impossible lmao.

Iihiko and Kumagawa have NPI as a bit of a relic; a few of Ajimu's wall-of-text skills that are largely ignored include ones that would make her non-corporeal. That's a similar thing for Medaka; her 100 Trample Skills include one that mentions creating a universe.

The keys do definitely suck, in the ways you point out.

Ajimu was given the skills which the other non-equals have because she had them at one point in time, and the profile isn't focused at one particular point in time. Or if you want, it could be treated as Ajimu, say, five years before the start of the series, where she would have had all of those skills.

 

[Agnaa]

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT Do you two have any thoughts on these suggested revisions?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you seem to make sense here, Agnaa.

Also, I think that Ajimu should preferably have all of her demonstrated abilities listed.

 

[Agnaa]

Some other stuff from reading more posts in the thread: About the writer and artist not being the same, while this is true, we learn from the other series they worked on together that the writer penned out tons of details, and even overruled the artist at times; I find it a bit hard to believe that the after-images in that scene were wholly invented by Akatsuki, without Nisio's intent or approval.

About the cigarette-stealing feat; idk if the others did properly react to it, they have disconcerted faces, but they don't seem to properly realize what happened until it was already done. Plus, Zenkichi said that it was just her advancing and retreating so quickly that it seemed like replication.

The Munakata sword dodge feat is very impressive. A quick back-of-the-napkin calc puts it in the Supersonic+ range. It's only, like, 5x slower than the cigarette-stealing feat.

Unknown's there because characters seemed to just keep getting stronger, without getting higher feats.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Unknown's there because characters seemed to just keep getting stronger, without getting higher feats.

That’s fair ig. (Still find it weird how All Fiction isn’t at least possibly 3-A but is listed as Unknown)
That being said, why is Medaka’s last key “Unknown”, isn’t the “creating a universe” thing done by a skill?

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that All-Fiction is probably at least tier 3-A, but it depends on what Agnaa thinks.

 

[Agnaa]

That’s fair ig. (Still find it weird how All Fiction isn’t at least possibly 3-A but is listed as Unknown)
That being said, why is Medaka’s last key “Unknown”, isn’t the “creating a universe” thing done by a skill?

The only statements about AF that can be argued as universal are:

1. Gagamaru telling Kumagawa "You're not trying to destroy the world are you? Well, you are but...." This is rejected since, if it's taken literally, then Kumagawa would've just erased reality then and been done with it.
2. Kumagawa saying "If I'm not careful, I could even make the world itself become nothing." This is rejected since in the very next speech bubble, Kumagawa lies about what All Fiction can do. And in the general context of the scene, he's trying to intimidate Zenkichi, so his words aren't taken as reliable.

The "create a universe" thing is done by a skill, but it's shown through one of many walls of skills in the series, and taking those seriously causes quite a few contradictions. Multiple characters would've been killed, we would've seen many environmental effects, and when some of those skills are elaborated on later, they act nothing like how they were described in the wall of text.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

The "create a universe" thing is done by a skill, but it's shown through one of many walls of skills in the series, and taking those seriously causes quite a few contradictions. Multiple characters would've been killed, we would've seen many environmental effects, and when some of those skills are elaborated on later, they act nothing like how they were described in the wall of text.

But if she's just creating it, why would that put her at just Unknown, shouldn't the 8-B (soon to be High 8-C) and 5-C stuff just carry over to her last key? Since the skill could also just be Pocket Reality Manipulation

 

[Agnaa]

But if she's just creating it, why would that put her at just Unknown, shouldn't the 8-B (soon to be High 8-C) and 5-C stuff just carry over to her last key? Since the skill could also just be Pocket Reality Manipulation

Because her keys suck. Her last key used to be called "With her strongest known skills", which didn't include her physicals; the name of that was changed to the last arc, but some details of it (like that) weren't updated.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Because her keys suck. Her last key used to be called "With her strongest known skills", which didn't include her physicals; the name of that was changed to the last arc, but some details of it (like that) weren't updated.

Well that explains it, yikes, being separated by transformations instead of arcs is already weird.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Actually wait, I found this while reading the first few volumes of Medaka Box (because that anime is never getting finished), and found this,
Medaka herself states she would drag the entire academy if she had to, which (unless this is a mistranslation), could probably let her keep her 8-B rating?
Feats > Statements, so it could be a "possibly"

 

[Agnaa]

Meh, that statement would be way above the anti-feat of her being unable to break the strings. I don't think it should be used.

 

[Dragonite007]

bump?

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Agnaa]

There's some stuff that should be done here (downgrading from 8-B; 9-B or 9-A for most of the series, and High 8-C for Iihiko/Medaka at the end, maybe revising the speed calcs, giving sensible keys based on arcs) that hasn't had the effort put in to be applied properly.

There's a few things that ig could be changed (removing NPI from Iihiko and Kumagawa), and are low-effort enough to be done now.

Rest of it I think is invalid.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Well, I just finished Medaka Box recently, and came back here to ask if there was a calc of the hospital that Iihiko destroyed? Because it doesn't look like it could be just Large Building level. (Also I think Moon level feat being a possibly is a little weird)

 

[Agnaa]

It was calced; it was only High 8-C.

Moon Level's possibly since we don't know how she did it, what the timeframe was, or even if she did it by herself, since Hanten went up and brought her back, without it being explained if he helped out in any other ways.

 

[Violatas]

The "create a universe" thing is done by a skill, but it's shown through one of many walls of skills in the series, and taking those seriously causes quite a few contradictions. Multiple characters would've been killed, we would've seen many environmental effects, and when some of those skills are elaborated on later, they act nothing like how they were described in the wall of text.

Its been awhile since I read Medaka Box, but mind tldr'ing the issues with Ajimu's text wall abilities?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Its been awhile since I read Medaka Box, but mind tldr'ing the issues with Ajimu's text wall abilities?

I believe it's because we never see on all of them used on the panels? Nor do we really know how some of them work. I could be very much wrong though. (There possibly was a time where Ajimu has used some of the skills seen on the walls of text against Iihiko, since she lost at least a hundred million times)

 

[Agnaa]

Its been awhile since I read Medaka Box, but mind tldr'ing the issues with Ajimu's text wall abilities?

In no particular order....

1. We're only told what type of skills they are. We know nothing about any limitations, requirements, ranges, speeds, how strong they are, etc. Which makes actually applying them in a fight really weird.
2. Some of the skills would leave her dead, like Death Mes (Seppuku skill), Beautiful Last Scene (Self-destruct skill), Last Murder (Both sides kill each other skill), and Sailor Same (Taking the same damage as the target skill), yet we don't see that happen. Although the last wall of the first six has a revive skill, which may mitigate this issue.
3. One of the skills would leave everyone around her dead; Deathst Moment (If you are seen they die skill), yet we don't see that happen.
4. For the few skills where we do get more information, the skill descriptions taken at face value become really wack, or even outright contradictory.
   • We eventually see Sword Looks (Sword purification skill) in the GLK novels, and it just lets her create a sword; seemingly having nothing to do with purification.
   • Later in the manga we see Unskilled (Don't use skills skill), and we learn it nullifies and blocks the user's skills for three minutes; we don't learn any of that from the description. To make things worse, she uses Unskilled in one of the walls of text, and then immediately goes on to use another skill - it's just completely contradicted.
   • Repeater Kitsch (Revival skill), actually contradicts info we learn in the GLK novels. Ajimu says there that reviving is impossible with a Skill, and that All Fiction cheats to make that possible. While Five Forks, the disease granting/removing skill, has been used to revive people, that could also be argued to be a cheat; just having a straight up revival skill exist seems fairly contradictory.
5. A bunch of other skills mentioned in the walls of text have very visual implications, but we see almost none of them. For a short list, there's "Create a maze", "Summon shrine", "Build a base", "Summon a person of great importance", "Create a universe", "Lay eggs", "Become big-breasted", "Make a backup", "Summon Hell", "Create webbing", "Grow fins", "Grow a beak", "Grow spines", "Grow needles", "Go underground", "Make fingers sickle-shaped", "Turn into a fossil". It's really hard to square the idea that she's using these abilities, and they do what they sound like they would, with there being absolutely no visual representation of the vast majority of them.

The only skills from those walls I accept are the 3 or 4 that appear visually (using magic, turning into a beast, creating chains, off the top of my head), and the ones that are further explained later.

 

[Violatas]

In no particular order....

1. We're only told what type of skills they are. We know nothing about any limitations, requirements, ranges, speeds, how strong they are, etc. Which makes actually applying them in a fight really weird.
2. Some of the skills would leave her dead, like Death Mes (Seppuku skill), Beautiful Last Scene (Self-destruct skill), Last Murder (Both sides kill each other skill), and Sailor Same (Taking the same damage as the target skill), yet we don't see that happen. Although the last wall of the first six has a revive skill, which may mitigate this issue.
3. One of the skills would leave everyone around her dead; Deathst Moment (If you are seen they die skill), yet we don't see that happen.
4. For the few skills where we do get more information, the skill descriptions taken at face value become really wack, or even outright contradictory.
   • We eventually see Sword Looks (Sword purification skill) in the GLK novels, and it just lets her create a sword; seemingly having nothing to do with purification.
   • Later in the manga we see Unskilled (Don't use skills skill), and we learn it nullifies and blocks the user's skills for three minutes; we don't learn any of that from the description. To make things worse, she uses Unskilled in one of the walls of text, and then immediately goes on to use another skill - it's just completely contradicted.
   • Repeater Kitsch (Revival skill), actually contradicts info we learn in the GLK novels. Ajimu says there that reviving is impossible with a Skill, and that All Fiction cheats to make that possible. While Five Forks, the disease granting/removing skill, has been used to revive people, that could also be argued to be a cheat; just having a straight up revival skill exist seems fairly contradictory.
5. A bunch of other skills mentioned in the walls of text have very visual implications, but we see absolutely none of them. For a short list, there's "Create a maze", "Summon shrine", "Build a base", "Summon a person of great importance", "Create a universe", "Lay eggs", "Become big-breasted", "Make a backup", "Summon Hell", "Create webbing", "Grow fins", "Grow a beak", "Grow spines", "Grow needles", "Go underground", "Make fingers sickle-shaped", "Turn into a fossil". It's really hard to square the idea that she's using these abilities, and they do what they sound like they would, with there being absolutely no visual representation of the vast majority of them.

The only skills from those walls I accept are the 3 or 4 that appear visually (using magic, turning into a beast, creating chains, off the top of my head), and the ones that are further explained later.

Got it. Thanks

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Moon Level's possibly since we don't know how she did it, what the timeframe was, or even if she did it by herself, since Hanten went up and brought her back, without it being explained if he helped out in any other ways.

I don't know if the volume extras count or are allowed to be used at all, nor am I sure if it has been brought up in threads before, but it looks like it was taken out in one shot, and some of the stuff on that cover kinda adds up with what Medaka talks about in Chapter 185, I think that's enough for a full tier instead of a possibly (the keys should for sure be sorted before that though, maybe a new thread for that?)

 

[Agnaa]

Huh, I've never seen that cover before.

Volume extras like that are fine to use, yeah. I got a bunch of them in a folder, but it seems like I only got the ones that needed translations, not covers like that.

That resolves most issues, but I'm still a bit worried about the Hanten one. Maybe it should just be moved to a likely?

Also, now that we have visuals of it, we should be able to calculate it. And calculations of moon destruction almost always go higher than 5-C. Medaka herself is one of the few pages on the wiki that has 5-C for destroying a moon.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Huh, I've never seen that cover before.

Volume extras like that are fine to use, yeah. I got a bunch of them in a folder, but it seems like I only got the ones that needed translations, not covers like that.

Well 99% of the volume extra covers don’t show stuff like that, and can’t be used for versus debating, which is probably why.

That resolves most issues, but I'm still a bit worried about the Hanten one. Maybe it should just be moved to a likely?

It just says Hanten went to the moon to save Medaka and not much else, not sure if we can assume he did more beyond that (although he might’ve helped Medaka travel a bit, but it’s never stated, it’s only said he went to the moon to save her), I still think a full tier would work, but I’m fine with playing it safe and using “likely”

Also, now that we have visuals of it, we should be able to calculate it. And calculations of moon destruction almost always go higher than 5-C. Medaka herself is one of the few pages on the wiki that has 5-C for destroying a moon.

I’m curious to see how the calc will end up.

 

[Violatas]

I don't know if the volume extras count or are allowed to be used at all, nor am I sure if it has been brought up in threads before, but it looks like it was taken out in one shot, and some of the stuff on that cover kinda adds up with what Medaka talks about in Chapter 185, I think that's enough for a full tier instead of a possibly (the keys should for sure be sorted before that though, maybe a new thread for that?)

Holy... finally, best proof she did destroy the moon. Nice find

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I think that end of series Medaka can be scaled from that feat.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I think Bouquet Toss To The Future Arc Medaka can be straight up 5-C (or whatever the moon destroying feat gets calculated to) since she did a lot more stuff before returning to Hakoniwa Academy which includes fighting War-Gold, a king from another universe as she talks about in Chapter 185. I can imagine she got stronger after that.

I think Medaka in the Unknown Shiranui Arc could be High 8-C to whatever tier the moon destruction gets calculated to. But that’s what I think.


This could be discussed more in another thread, as the op hasn't been active since February.

 

[Violatas]

Yeah.
Anyways, I assume we're done here?
Just gotta apply the agreed on changes above. The moon feat can be handled in a different thread.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yeah.
Anyways, I assume we're done here?
Just gotta apply the agreed on changes above. The moon feat can be handled in a different thread.

I think stuff like Non-Physical Interaction from Misogi and Iihiko can probably be removed now.

As for things such as AP, Speed, and the keys, that’s going to take a lot longer. There was a talk about making a sandbox and I’m not sure if it’s been done yet, but I might make one and edit it overtime with the feats provided.

 

[Agnaa]

I've removed it from Iihiko, but I'm leaving Kumagawa alone for now, since I don't know which of his matches will need to be removed once that ability's gone.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I've started working on a sandbox for Medaka (as I think she could use a revision the most currently), if there's anything that could be improved/expanded on, let me know. (Note: 5-C is a somewhat of a placeholder tier until the Moon feat gets calculated)

 

[Agnaa]

I was wondering about how to draw the keys. Arcs are nice, but aren't exactly accurate (Medaka gets a major power boost, like, 5 chapters into the Thirteen Party Arc). I also wonder if we'd want to make a profile for Medaka in middle school, since we can tell from some stuff (flashbacks/recollections, her getting de-aged during Unknown Shiranui, and Medaka Box Juvenile) how strong she was and what abilities she had then, which may make for an interesting key. Basically a somewhat nerfed version of her in the Thirteen Party Arc.

Straight up 9-A's probably better than 9-B to 9-A.

I think I'd go straight up SoL for Kurokami Phantom from the Thirteen Party Arc onward for reasons above.

LS probably deserves to be cleaned up.

I thought this was already applied, but she shouldn't have infinite stamina; we're explicitly told that while she copied Oudo's abnormality, she doesn't have infinite stamina.

A lot of other stuff deserves cleaning, but I suspect that's just because of how new the sandbox is.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I was wondering about how to draw the keys. Arcs are nice, but aren't exactly accurate (Medaka gets a major power boost, like, 5 chapters into the Thirteen Party Arc). I also wonder if we'd want to make a profile for Medaka in middle school, since we can tell from some stuff (flashbacks/recollections, her getting de-aged during Unknown Shiranui, and Medaka Box Juvenile) how strong she was and what abilities she had then, which may make for an interesting key. Basically a somewhat nerfed version of her in the Thirteen Party Arc.

Straight up 9-A's probably better than 9-B to 9-A.

I think I'd go straight up SoL for Kurokami Phantom from the Thirteen Party Arc onward for reasons above.

LS probably deserves to be cleaned up.

I thought this was already applied, but she shouldn't have infinite stamina; we're explicitly told that while she copied Oudo's abnormality, she doesn't have infinite stamina.

A lot of other stuff deserves cleaning, but I suspect that's just because of how new the sandbox is.

Yeah, I haven’t gotten near anything aside from Tier and Attack Potency somewhat. That’s why it currently is a mess. (As the City Block level stuff is still there in Attack Potency)

9-A is probably better, I just included since that was the only feat before Medaka pulling part of the academy while restrained by Unzen’s strings.

I’m not against the idea of Medaka having another profile or key when she was in middle school. But I haven’t read the novels yet so I’m not sure what powers or what tier Medaka would be at that time.

 

[Agnaa]

I was under the impression that Unzen's armor/bombs landed in 9-A, and I figured that would scale to Medaka without War God.

It's been a while, so if that isn't the case, then 9-B base seems fine. It should just be formatted a bit better.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I was under the impression that Unzen's armor/bombs landed in 9-A, and I figured that would scale to Medaka without War God.

It's been a while, so if that isn't the case, then 9-B base seems fine. It should just be formatted a bit better.

Actually yeah it does since he did survive when he destroyed the student council room using the Smart Bombs. And Medaka did survive the explosion in base if memory serves right.

(Also is the tiering for the Unknown Shiranui Arc and Bouquet Toss To The Future Arc good?)

 

[Agnaa]

Using "to" doesn't make sense when a character's strength doesn't fluctuate. This may just be another point where the arcs aren't great dividers for power.

Thinking about it more, having her be all the way up at 5-C is kinda weird with the Bouquet Toss arc. Like, she uses her strongest transformation, injures but doesn't KO/kill a bunch of mooks, then they say "haha she really can't hold back" (album of that). When they're all probably not 5-C. And even later on, she gets gradually more and more injured after her fights. Although maybe the part we take as an outlier here shouldn't be her 5-C rating, but other characters scaling to her.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Using "to" doesn't make sense when a character's strength doesn't fluctuate. This may just be another point where the arcs aren't great dividers for power.

I’m not really sure how else to split the keys currently. I used “to” since Medaka goes from scaling to Iihiko who destroyed a hospital (High 8-C) and then destroys the moon in the exact arc.

Thinking about it more, having her be all the way up at 5-C is kinda weird with the Bouquet Toss arc. Like, she uses her strongest transformation, injures but doesn't KO/kill a bunch of mooks, then they say "haha she really can't hold back" (album of that). When they're all probably not 5-C. And even later on, she gets gradually more and more injured after her fights. Although maybe the part we take as an outlier here shouldn't be her 5-C rating, but other characters scaling to her.

Definitely an outlier, since a chapter later Medaka fights Iihiko (albeit, it’s his Echo, not sure if he’s any weaker physically), the characters (with the exception of maybe Iihiko) shouldn’t scale to 5-C.

 

[Agnaa]

I’m not really sure how else to split the keys currently. I used “to” since Medaka goes from scaling to Iihiko who destroyed a hospital (High 8-C) and then destroys the moon in the exact arc.

My best ideas are:

• Use the "notes" feature, to add some indicating when exactly those keys start and end. So, say, it'd look like "Thirteen Party Arc[note 1]", when you hover/click on [note 1] it says "This key actually starts at Chapter 27, but that's close to the start of this arc." Bouquet Toss would end up starting a few chapters earlier; probably at the beginning of Medaka's fight with Iihiko, or after Medaka gets revived and goes to destroy the moon.
• Rename the keys from being based on arcs to being based on chapters.
• Have the keys technically be based on how Medaka was at the very end of the arc, rather than trying to cover her all the way through.

Although now that I think about it, we kinda have to make a call on Iihiko and Medaka's ratings.

If Medaka solidly gets a tier for moon-busting, then either Iihiko's High 8-C feat won't be used, or Iihiko won't be able to solidly scale.

There's a lotta ways we can go the "doesn't solidly scale" route. Say it's an outlier, since he was going to die to the moon crashing down, got injured by an armoured vehicle, and said that his new body was far more powerful after merely performing a High 8-C feat. We could also say that Medaka got stronger after she was revived, since she went on to do a bunch of ludicrous shit; essentially we'd say that she couldn't have destroyed the moon when fighting Iihiko.