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MCU Love & Thunder Spoiler Thread

The biggest hits of Phase 4 were Spider-Man: No Way Home and Hawkeye, in my opinion.

As for misses, do you guys really want me to air out the smoke? I'll probably do take this question to the Phase 4 thread and then discuss there.
 
ZoroNotZolo said:
This probably isn't the right thread to ask this question but, Phase 4: were there more hits or misses this phase?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, hits

This Thor 4 was nothing but pathetic, but overall MCU still kept being fun to watch, Eternals was nice, Multiverse of Madness was actually great, and the series are mostly interesting (Loki, WandaVision, Moon Knight), I say mostly because some of them were meh to straight trash (Hawkeye, Falcon and Winter Soldier)

And, of course, we have No Way Home, which is nothing but absolutely epic
 
Phase 1:
Hit - IM, Cap 1, Avengers
Miss - Thor, Hulk, IM2

Phase 2:
Hit - Cap 2, GOTG, Ant man
Miss - IM3, Thor 2, AOU

Phase 3:
Hit - Civil War, DS, Homecoming, Ragnorok, IW, EG
Miss - GOTG2, BP, Ant man 2, Cap Marvel, FFH

Phase 4:
Hit - Shangchi, NWH, DS2, Wandavision, Loki, Moon knight, Hawkeye
Miss - BW, Eternals, Thor 4, FATWS, MS Marvel, What if

Phase 4 has the most misses, but it's also released way more content
 
Overall, I personally think that there were some good ideas in Phase 4, but a lot of them fell flat on their faces or fizzled out in execution.

I liked Hawkeye, but felt like it needed more episodes. The deleted scenes would have added a lot more to the investment the story wanted us to feel in characters like Kate and Echo, and would have given more impact to Kingpin's presence rather than waiting until episode 5 to reveal him for shock value.

Loki had a lot of interesting concepts, but I remember watching The Avengers not long after that, and one of my first thoughts was "this... really doesn't seem like this is the same Loki we're talking about", and it's somewhat wild to think Lightning McQueen having an intervention would make Loki an even better person than his character development throughout the movies, and I think it would have made sense for him to try to play along and try to get an edge over the TVA and such.

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier introduced the idea of seeing how the world adjusted to the snap and to the blip, but it felt like an anti-racism PSA more often than not, plot twists were telegraphed as heck, and I cringed when Sam said Karli wasn't a terrorist. Honestly, John Walker and Zemo were my favorite parts of the show, and they were supposed to be portrayed as, I don't wanna say "bad guys", but not the characters the show wanted you to care about as much.

Moon Knight was cool, and Oscar Isaac did phenomenal with the role, but it didn't feel violent enough for a Moon Knight series, and I think it would have worked so much better for the character if the show had vibes similar to Daredevil or The Punisher in terms of choreography and violence.

Moon Knight be killin' dudes.

I liked Shang-Chi, but the dragons at the end kind of just.... came out of nowhere. That was the weakest part of the film for me.

From what I heard of Black Widow, they full on changed Taskmaster's gender (which, OK, do you, I guess, MCU? They kind of did that with Flag Smasher, too, but I digress) which isn't really as big of a deal as what I'm gonna mention next. They also seemed to remove a lot of Taskmaster's personality, which... why? Like, Taskmaster in the comics cracks a lot of jokes, and the idea of the character that can copy any skill and retain it at the cost of long-term memories really could have been fleshed out in a film which has the overarching theme of the importance of family.

Also, why were they not on Natasha's case for her teaming up with Yelena, who caused an avalanche over a prison, after the Sokovia Accords, which were specifically addressing instances of collateral damage caused by Avengers and their shenanigans?

Didn't watch Ms. Marvel. Someone who hates the MCU and is a Muslim and someone who likes content put out by the MCU both told me to skip the show, so I followed their advice lol. I will say that I felt from the jump that changing the origin of Kamala Khan's powers was not the move. At all.

Regarding Thor: Love and Thunder (what this thread is actually about lol), I felt from the beginning that Gorr the God Butcher wouldn't be a fit for the more comedic Thor we'd been getting at this point. I was right, especially since every single source I've seen review the movie said the comedy was played up to the point where nothing was taken seriously, and that a lot of the jokes didn't even land. I've also consistently heard people say Gorr was the best part about the movie, yet he had far too little screen time, and that Gorr the God Butcher didn't really butcher any gods aside from the opening scene. In the comics, Gorr was sadistic in the way that he tortured gods before killing them as a means of payback for all the years of neglect he had received from the gods, and in nearly accomplishing his goal to eradicate all the gods, he was somewhat turning into a type of tyrannical god himself, one that tortured and took pleasure in the pain of gods rather than mortals. They could have had more opportunity to show that sadistic side of Gorr by having him kill gods, or the subtle hypocrisy slipping in as the film progresses, or even take him in a different direction entirely that the fans would have enjoyed, but instead of doing that, he ended up kidnapping more children than he did butchering of gods, all while not having enough screen time when he was the best part about the movie.

Spider-Man: No Way Home was phenomenal. It managed to use nostalgia to further the story, not to replace or mask the absence of a story. I've heard someone say that that Homecoming was Peter with responsibility but without power- hence him feeling he was nothing without the suit- and that Far From Home was Peter with the power but not the responsibility- something that can be seen by Peter trying to have a normal field trip/vacation- and finally, No Way Home is where both are put together, with Aunt May telling him (with the actual quote from the original comic) "with great power, there must also come great responsibility". I also like how both the Raimi Spider-Man and Amazing Spider-Man gave advice that would be represented with their actions later in the film: Peter 2 (Raimi Spider-Man) talks about revenge not being satisfying, and steps in front of Peter 1 to keep him from killing the Green Goblin, and Peter 3 talks about his grief and rage after losing Gwen, and he gets his redemption and keeps Peter 1 from suffering that grief by saving MJ. And I love how Peter has gone back to basics at the end of the film. Honestly, the suit at the end is the best Spider-Man suit out of every suit I've seen in a Spider-Man live-action film. I watched a video by Browntable, talking about hype culture ruining the MCU to hear his take, and one of the things he mentioned about the film was that when there was a reference such as "You know, I'm something of a scientist myself" or the appearances of the other Spider-Men with the Sling Rings, there were pauses you'd barely notice in a theater, but seem like they're waiting for fans to applaud when you rewatch it on your own later. Personally, I don't mind, but I hope the MCU doesn't start relying on or abusing nostalgia and guest cameos too much.

Other movies I had just lost interest in (e.g. Multiverse of Madness, WandaVision), and others I just wasn't interested in (e.g. Eternals).
 
L&T was definitely too much focused on jokes. Some were genuinely funny for me (the goats and the jealous axe notably) but most were just cringy. That, plus Thor is now reduced to basically a clown. A super strong clown but still a clown, far from the dignified god he should be. Ragnarok was genuinely good because of the surprise and because the movie could balance out the comical and serious elements, which L&T evidently can't.

Also, Gorr was definitely out of place in this movie. Most of the time, it's all about jokes but whenever he's on screen, it's either incredibly tragic or almost horrifying. He definitely deserved more scenes, and yes, scenes where he's shown killing gods. Heck, his battle with Sif and Falligar (which he WON) alone could have been an awesome scene showcaing how incredibly dangerous he was. They chose to give him redemption because apparently now, every villain must be a tragic one and it could have worked honestly, IF he was in a more serious movie. This is a character who is utterly sadistic and murderous and an incredibly evil bad guy even for comics standards, he shouldn't have been in this movie. Which is sad because aside from his power, everything about him is excellent. Every scene with him as the God Butcher is creepy as ****, his design is really disturbing, Christian Bale is awesome in the role and he offers the best action sequence in the movie, and honestly one of the best in super hero movies in recent years for me (the battle in the Shadow Realm is just awesome). He's honestly a very good villain here and even with a redemption, he could have been awesome if he was allowed to show his cruelty. Which can't happen here because now Thor must be a comedic character and jokes must be the focus.

I mean, take Hela. She's terrifyingly murderous, sadistic, incredibly dangerous and powerful and remains threatening for the entire movie, yet she also has comedic scenes and a sense of humor. And it works because it's perfectly balanced, the movie takes the time to establish her character very well, the comedic side does not downplay her dangerosity or the emergency of the events, it brings levity but it still keeps us focused on the problem and it doesn't clash with Hela herself. The result is that Ragnarok is genuinely funny, inventive and entertaining while also making the villain terrifying and all of this is perfectly balanced.
And this is not the case in L&T, not only because the surprise is gone, the jokes are much more clumsy and cringy and the plot too ridiculous but also because they tried to introduce a villain way too dark for a comedic family-friendly space opera like this. Which again is a shame since Gorr is a genuinely good villain.
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
L&T is serviceable but its also a ******* mess
Click to expand...
It's definitely entertaining and okay for me. But it should have been more than simply "okay". And Gorr shouldn't have been in this. If they really needed a funny space-opera like bad guy, they could have gone for a version of Amora and it would have gave us more variety for fights since Amora is all about Magic and not really physical combat (might have been a bit too much Scarlet Witch-like though). That would have worked much better
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
It's definitely entertaining and okay for me. But it should have been more than simply "okay". And Gorr shouldn't have been in this. If they really needed a funny space-opera like bad guy, they could have gone for a version of Amora and it would have gave us more variety for fights since Amora is all about Magic and not really physical combat (might have been a bit too much Scarlet Witch-like though). Thath would have worked much better
Click to expand...
THIS. Amora could have worked so much better for a movie like this.

Dang, Hela stole from Gorr and Amora in Ragnarok lol. Her weapons are called Necroswords, and she had an Executioner when that's usually Amora's shtick.
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
L&T was definitely too much focused on jokes. Some were genuinely funny for me (the goats and the jealous axe notably) but most were just cringy. That, plus Thor is now reduced to basically a clown. A super strong clown but still a clown, far from the dignified god he should be. Ragnarok was genuinely good because of the surprise and because the movie could balance out the comical and serious elements, which L&T evidently can't.

Also, Gorr was definitely out of place in this movie. Most of the time, it's all about jokes but whenever he's on screen, it's either incredibly tragic or almost horrifying. He definitely deserved more scenes, and yes, scenes where he's shown killing gods. Heck, his battle with Sif and Falligar (which he WON) alone could have been an awesome scene showcaing how incredibly dangerous he was. They chose to give him redemption because apparently now, every villain must be a tragic one and it could have worked honestly, IF he was in a more serious movie. This is a character who is utterly sadistic and murderous and an incredibly evil bad guy even for comics standards, he shouldn't have been in this movie. Which is sad because aside from his power, everything about him is excellent. Every scene with him as the God Butcher is creepy as ****, his design is really disturbing, Christian Bale is awesome in the role and he offers the best action sequence in the movie, and honestly one of the best in super hero movies in recent years for me (the battle in the Shadow Realm is just awesome). He's honestly a very good villain here and even with a redemption, he could have been awesome if he was allowed to show his cruelty. Which can't happen here because now Thor must be a comedic character and jokes must be the focus.

I mean, take Hela. She's terrifyingly murderous, sadistic, incredibly dangerous and powerful and remains threatening for the entire movie, yet she also has comedic scenes and a sense of humor. And it works because it's perfectly balanced, the movie takes the time to establish her character very well, the comedic side does not downplay her dangerosity or the emergency of the events, it brings levity but it still keeps us focused on the problem and it doesn't clash with Hela herself. The result is that Ragnarok is genuinely funny, inventive and entertaining while also making the villain terrifying and all of this is perfectly balanced.
And this is not the case in L&T, not only because the surprise is gone, the jokes are much more clumsy and cringy and the plot too ridiculous but also because they tried to introduce a villain way too dark for a comedic family-friendly space opera like this. Which again is a shame since Gorr is a genuinely good villain.
Click to expand...
Having Gorr in L&T honestly feels like putting a Wild Kratts villain in "Fire Walk with Me"
 
Yeah, with the MCU, I've reached "I'm not mad (usually), just disappointed" territory with a lot of the stuff they've been putting out recently. I've been reading John Byrne's Sensational She-Hulk run, which is a really fun comic with lots of fourth wall breaks courtesy of Shulkie herself, and I'm sincerely hoping that the She-Hulk series on Disney+ will be good when that drops. I've always loved the character, and she's back in my ever-fluctuating top 10 favorite comic characters, with the only really locked in spots being Spider-Man and Moon Knight.

I've also noticed that it seems like the MCU is kind of making the same mistake as the comics in the sense that it's now seeming like just like you had to read a bunch of comics to get an idea of what was going on in a certain arc, you have to do the same thing for movies as well. A complaint people had about Multiverse of Madness was that it seemed like you had to watch WandaVision before hand to understand "What's a darkhold? What kids are Wanda talking about? What is Westview? What happened there?". I saw a video by captainmidnight talking about this same issue, and he pointed out how this was always a thing with the MCU, but it seems as though it's become more prevalent because the MCU has churned out more movies yearly (they used to do 1-2 yearly, but then went to 3 near the end of Phase 3, and 4 by the start of Phase 4) along with Disney+ shows being about an extra 6 hours worth of content per show. That's something that makes following along more of a tall order for someone who wants to get into the MCU: not impossible, just more difficult.

Also, speaking of what I said about what's going on in a certain arc of comics, what endgame (no pun intended) is Phase 4 shooting for? Kang? Galactus? You knew early on in the previous Phases that all roads led to Thanos, yet I have no idea what's supposed to tie The Eternals, Loki, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Spider-Man: No Way Home, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye, Thor: Love and Thunder, She-Hulk, etc. together, if anything.
 
ZoroNotZolo said:
Yeah, with the MCU, I've reached "I'm not mad (usually), just disappointed" territory with a lot of the stuff they've been putting out recently. I've been reading John Byrne's Sensational She-Hulk run, which is a really fun comic with lots of fourth wall breaks courtesy of Shulkie herself, and I'm sincerely hoping that the She-Hulk series on Disney+ will be good when that drops. I've always loved the character, and she's back in my ever-fluctuating top 10 favorite comic characters, with the only really locked in spots being Spider-Man and Moon Knight.

I've also noticed that it seems like the MCU is kind of making the same mistake as the comics in the sense that it's now seeming like just like you had to read a bunch of comics to get an idea of what was going on in a certain arc, you have to do the same thing for movies as well. A complaint people had about Multiverse of Madness was that it seemed like you had to watch WandaVision before hand to understand "What's a darkhold? What kids are Wanda talking about? What is Westview? What happened there?". I saw a video by captainmidnight talking about this same issue, and he pointed out how this was always a thing with the MCU, but it seems as though it's become more prevalent because the MCU has churned out more movies yearly (they used to do 1-2 yearly, but then went to 3 near the end of Phase 3, and 4 by the start of Phase 4) along with Disney+ shows being about an extra 6 hours worth of content per show. That's something that makes following along more of a tall order for someone who wants to get into the MCU: not impossible, just more difficult.

Also, speaking of what I said about what's going on in a certain arc of comics, what endgame (no pun intended) is Phase 4 shooting for? Kang? Galactus? You knew early on in the previous Phases that all roads led to Thanos, yet I have no idea what's supposed to tie The Eternals, Loki, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Spider-Man: No Way Home, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye, Thor: Love and Thunder, She-Hulk, etc. together, if anything.
Click to expand...
This, phase 4 feels a bit too unfocused. Apparently, this is because this phase is about the characters dealing with the trauma of the events of IW and Endgame but we don't see that in NWH or Eternals
 
I means it's so obvious that phase 4 is heading towards Secret Wars. I don't see why there needs to be so much hand holding. NWH, MoM, what if s1 and s2, Loki s1 and s2 and quantamania covers the overarching multiversal plotline while the remaing content introduces new characters and develops existing ones.

Less people would be interested in phase 4 and beyond if they're just gonna cover the same 5 characters.
 
So obvious most fans, including hardcord comic reader, are confused at what the writers are doing with this phase 4. Anf or the record, people are not asking for covering the same five characters, they want a clear direction, something that indicates them "okay, we're watching this because it will lead to this", like phase 1 did with the Avengers and the rest until phase 3 and 4 did with Thanos (the objective about the Avengers was clear ever since the first Iron Man)

No need to tell us everything they've planned but there's a difference between leaving some surprise while still having a clear plan in mind and giving off the impression you're throwing everything you can think off at the moment without having a real plan in mind (which is exactly what it feels with this phase)
 
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