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MASSIVE Warcraft Revision

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Anderson2003 said:
There are others, actually, but I never remember the others... You can probably find them. Most raid bosses that get hyped up become planet busters due to their lore.
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I mean, I do have Algalon. But, he isn't a planet buster. However, he can send a message to the halls of origination, which could wipe out all life on Azeroth. And, we do have Ragnaros at full power. :/
 
As an extremely hardcore Warcraft fan I second what Bepo said about the Chronicles books. ALL previous lore that conflicts with the Chronicles is to be disregarded. The entire series of books were released with the intention of revamping the lore that had become extremely self-contradicting after the WoD expansion.

A couple of part-time novel writers ( Richard A. Knaak and Christie Golden ) had been causing continuity issues for more than a decade and when Chris Metzen, the head writer for Blizzard, decided to retire, his last project was these books that attempt to fix the lore's issues.

Right now elementals are born out of Life Energy which is a part of every planet regardless of whether there is a sleeping titan in it or not. Right now, Elementals are incapable of traveling across the universe or leaving their home planet for that matter. That disproves the possibility of Murmur being a planet buster, if he was, there'd be no Outland.

I did notice while reading along however that Bepo said that the Pantheon and Sargeras have no 3-B feats. Their fight however is an extremely high 3-B feat as it is.

I quote Chronicle Volume One here: "Stars withered and died as the battle raged across the cosmos, scarring vast stretches of reality" The choice of words here is very important.

"Cosmos" - the ancient greek word symbolizing the totality of the universe as a whole. "Reality" - of course, just like cosmos, denoting the entirety of the universe viewed as one single thing.

The keyword here however is "vast". With this the writer clearly states that a noticable, even more so a considerable amount of the cosmos was destroyed by their fight. Anything beyond 3-B however is unwarranted.

As for the tooltip on the new Boss's spell, it should be taken very lightly, WoW has always been filled with hidden items and tooltips that were previously not available for Players too see without data mining that have boasted similar placeholder messages.
 
What do you disagree with? Everything has been made with nice points up until now. If you have any disagreement, Im here for debate.
 
Myriadofmemes said:
As an extremely hardcore Warcraft fan I second what Bepo said about the Chronicles books. ALL previous lore that conflicts with the Chronicles is to be disregarded. The entire series of books were released with the intention of revamping the lore that had become extremely self-contradicting after the WoD expansion.
A couple of part-time novel writers ( Richard A. Knaak and Christie Golden ) had been causing continuity issues for more than a decade and when Chris Metzen, the head writer for Blizzard, decided to retire, his last project was these books that attempt to fix the lore's issues.

Right now elementals are born out of Life Energy which is a part of every planet regardless of whether there is a sleeping titan in it or not. Right now, Elementals are incapable of traveling across the universe or leaving their home planet for that matter. That disproves the possibility of Murmur being a planet buster, if he was, there'd be no Outland.

I did notice while reading along however that Bepo said that the Pantheon and Sargeras have no 3-B feats. Their fight however is an extremely high 3-B feat as it is.

I quote Chronicle Volume One here: "Stars withered and died as the battle raged across the cosmos, scarring vast stretches of reality" The choice of words here is very important.

"Cosmos" - the ancient greek word symbolizing the totality of the universe as a whole. "Reality" - of course, just like cosmos, denoting the entirety of the universe viewed as one single thing.

The keyword here however is "vast". With this the writer clearly states that a noticable, even more so a considerable amount of the cosmos was destroyed by their fight. Anything beyond 3-B however is unwarranted.

As for the tooltip on the new Boss's spell, it should be taken very lightly, WoW has always been filled with hidden items and tooltips that were previously not available for Players too see without data mining that have boasted similar placeholder messages.
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I Agree 100% to most of this. However, with my End of All things ability, Argus DOES use this in his fight. So, it's an ability that is going to be in the fight. Also, we're pretty late in the 7.3.2 BS, so I don't think it's a "Placeholder" message.
 
Anderson2003 said:
What do you disagree with? Everything has been made with nice points up until now. If you have any disagreement, Im here for debate.
Click to expand...
Why is Deathwing 5-B?

How do the Old Gods fit in?
 
Deathwing is 5-B due to being comparable with Archimonde, Arthas and being superior to other guys such as Mongrethod, Dimensius and such making him be 5-B. In fact, an artifact made by possible 5-B beings couldnt hurt him and we had to weaken him for it to work.

The Old Gods havent been scaled yet, but honestly? They are at least 5-B all things considered. They are far superior to guys such as Arthas.
 
So, right now, we put the Pantheon (Including Sargeras) at High 3-B.

However, if Argus' BS is true (Which, it 99% likely is), then I guess we'll put him around 3-A (If his End of All things Ability means just our timeline), or 2-A/High 2-A if by Ending Creation, he means litterally EVERYTHING!

If not (Which is 1% unlikely, tbh), then he's around High 3-B with the Pantheon.
 
I'd honestly put Sargeras at High 3-B. He only defeated the Pantheon, cause they were HIGHLY weak to fel magics. He should be at around their tier, still.

Argus is a special case. We'll have him as unknown, until Antorus. And, if i'm right, he should be around 3-A, or 2-A if his End of All Things ability stretches to that of Spacetime, Timelines, and shit (Which, is 99% likely the case).
 
@Bepo4151

Can you summarise the conclusions that you have reached here.

@All

Do not quote walls of text. It turns the thread messy and hard to follow.
 
Anderson2003 said:
Deathwing is 5-B due to being comparable with Archimonde, Arthas and being superior to other guys such as Mongrethod, Dimensius and such making him be 5-B. In fact, an artifact made by possible 5-B beings couldnt hurt him and we had to weaken him for it to work.
The Old Gods havent been scaled yet, but honestly? They are at least 5-B all things considered. They are far superior to guys such as Arthas.
Click to expand...
Deathwing and Arthas aren't 5-B unless you provide evidence of Mangrethod or Dimensius blowing the whole planet. Which Mangrethod didn't because we travel there. Dimensius attacked with his void armies and we don't know what happened to the planet none of those two are planet busters. Come to think of it if a random pit lord could blow up a planet why is the legion even setting up invasion point? Just blow the planet from the sentinax guys. Why are they bothering with the portal in the tomb of Sargeras just send a pit lord on one of the ships and blow it from afar?
 
"I don't think we are done here Ant we have agreed only on the rating of the Titans."

I disagree with that but I will discuss it later.
 
Bepo, this may sound weird, but having planet busting capabilities and power doesnt mean you can neccesarily planet bust. Wolverine is 4-B with his claws and has constantly shown that he has this rating (has pierced and hurt the Hulk, Thor and other 4-B beings with them) and yet cant really destroy a complete Solar System, though I doubt this is the case. Mongrethod being 5-B truly seems like a weird tier, I do agree, considering Mannoroth, the supposed strongest of Annihilan never showed said levels of power. Visiting a world doesnt mean it wasn't destroyed. We actually have a picture of Draenor exploding and yet, we visit Outland, which are the remnants of said destruction. The same could have happened to said planets. And Dimensius was stated to have destroyed K'aresh again and again, even at the Pandemonius Adventure Guide. And considering a powerful naaru had to suicide itself to save a world from Dimensius and that Dimensius is a void lord, who are immensely powerful, him being 5-B doesnt seem as off as Mongrethod's rating. The planet was either completely dessimated or busted.

Also, this: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Planet

You can check the sources, but most of them seem correct. And Arthas and Deathwing are around 5-B anyways for being nearly comparable to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde in power, on which you can check many videos, WoW nerds in forums mentioning this, but they are usually comparable. Need I remind you once again that Arthas killed all heroes who as a force were nearly unbeatable? And this after being weakened in tons of raids and challenges that said heroes faced, such as destroying his heart? And even then, absolutely no hero other than Tirion was considered helpful at the fight against the Lich King, deciding to retreat and pray that we managed to defeat him by a miracle? And that Deathwing might even be more powerful and literally tore the dimensional walls between the Elemental Plane and Azeroth?

I don't know why you doubt them being 5-B, actually. I mean, we certainly have to make sure to get the right rating, so its good to be nitpicky, but all things considered, there are plenty of suggestions;
 
You can just decide to scale Arthas and Deathwing to Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. What connects them? Have they fought?No, they haven't. Do they have statements that suggest they are equal in power? No they don't.
 
Bepo, this may sound weird, but having planet busting capabilities and power doesnt mean you can neccesarily planet bust.
It absolutely does. AP is literally measured in tons of TNT on this wiki Anderson. If a character can deal damage to someone who might have higher DP than them than they most likely have Durability Negation in some shape or form.

Visiting a world doesnt mean it wasn't destroyed. We actually have a picture of Draenor exploding and yet, we visit Outland, which are the remnants of said destruction. The same could have happened to said planets
Which is not in line with what a 5-B character on this wiki would have to do to earn a 5-B rating. Furthermore this is your own headcannon.
 
Myriad, AP does have different means. Its not as simple as only TNT measurement as there are exceptions, even though those are the muscles and skeletons of the AP of each character. One of these is Area on Effect (even though it is usually used in a way it shouldnt). Wolverine is an example of this. You can search this very wikia for more exceptions, but those exist. He has no type of Durability Negation, its just that his claws are massively more powerful than he is physically, and this doesn't even mean said claws manage to instakill 8-A beings, just that it can cut through anything up until 4-B.

To destroy a planet, one has to go over their binding forces of the planet, which would make them explode without a trace. So to destroy a planet without doing so would not be rated 5-B as it wouldn't have enough energy to do so. However, Draenor is not the example Im using as a base. I used this argument in regards to the planet Mongrethod "destroyed", and Mongrethod certainly isn't 5-B due to Mannoroth, his superior, not having said tier. So while you are correct, that is meaningless to the discussion.

No, they aren't comparable in statements, connections, battles or yadda. But regarding feats, all of them are similar (well, except for Kil'Jaeden, who is above all other three and has rarely even appeared).

Archimonde has planet busting statements, caused great damage to many planets along with the legion and was going to destroy the World Tree by absorbing its power, said power that would make him rival Sargeras. Has planet busting statements.

Deathwing was already incredibly powerful among Dragon Aspects (who are also possibly 5-B) and managed to face off against three of them while still as Neltharion and later went on to become ten times stronger. Broke dimensional rifts between the Elemental Plane and Azeroth, so he basically crushed his way inbetween dimensions.

Arthas had nearly all the powers of the Lich King which was empowered by Kil'Jaeden to be his "general" in the Legion in the first place. He would go on to slay drakes (even though they are not nearly comparable to the Aspects) even when still a human, and even when artifacts that maintained his power were crushed and we did many quests to reduce his power to the minimum, still oneshotted all heroes during the battle at Icecrown Citadel, the same heroes who had previously defeated/killed a weakened Kil'Jaeden, Malygos (a Dragon Aspect and about 1/13th of Deathwing's power through sheer stupid scaling (you can criticize me on this)) and other great powerhouses.

EDIT: And just to mention, the Lich King's powers kept increasing beyond Kil'jaeden's control, hence Kil'Jaeden attempting to destroy the Lich King using his agents and failing quite horribly at all his attempts. In fact, Kil'Jaeden was more worried in regards to LK than Archimonde's defeat in Azeroth. This is all shown during Warcraft III: Frozen Throne, by the way.
 
. He has no type of Durability Negation, its just that his claws are massively more powerful than he is physically, and this doesn't even mean said claws manage to instakill 8-A beings, just that it can cut through anything up until 4-B.
Anderson, blades, and all sharp objects for that matter, are BASED on the idea of negating durability, like in real life based. Instead of having to deal with the majority of the molecular composition of a given object you focus the energy that you are expending on a very small part of the thing you're trying to break apart and you end up increasing the amount of force that is being exerted on those particular molecular bonds manyfold. Hurting things is listed as AP instead of Durability Negation because anyone can do it with sufficiently good equipment.

However, your point was that Deathwing shattered the dimensional rifts between the Elemental Planes and that Murmur and other characters destroyed planets, no adamantium claws here, no characters to be harmed, just planets. The resulting damage Azeroth received from the destruction of the dimensional rifts wasn't nearly enough to warrant a 6-A,5-C and certainly not a 5-B rating.
 
I never implied that was the case, Myriad. I even mentioned that IN my comment. Also, blades and sharp objects are not based on the idea of negating durability. Goku says hi, he stops a sword with his finger. Durability is your resistance to damage, in real life, knives and nearly everything bypass our durability in the sense that they hurt us and can cause damage. Negating durability is something else altogether, all the blades do is bypass it. That notion is flawed. Blades have an "AP", so they do X amount of damage. If I have Y durability and Y>X. I resist that damage, Im not affected. Thats the basis on how AP and Durability relate. Negating Durability is, for instance, when you have an attack that works in EVERYONE except those with defences on that, such as Mind Control, for instance.

Once again, I never implied this was the case. I in fat even said this. "Bepo, this may sound weird, but having planet busting capabilities and power doesnt mean you can neccesarily planet bust [...] though I doubt this is the case. "

Even though your durability negation argument is wrong, you can check why that is on threads debating about Attack Potency, Durability and such, you did do so some good points in relation to how it translates into Warcraft. In which case, once again, this is completely irrelevant to the case since this isn't my main argument on an argument at all, I just brought it up to give an example on the fact that there are exceptions to the rules and that there is need to be careful on these.

Now, if anyone wishes to criticize me on my arguments about Arthas, Archimonde and Deathwing, such as Bepo who is quite probably going to instacomment its not proof that they are 5-B and Im gonna have to work a bit harder (Thank you for that, actually), I'd be glad.

EDIT: And to answer your question, Arda, its wrirten on the WoT. Even though they have never outright fought or been compared in-universe (except for Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden, of course), they're feats are quite similar in a greater scale and they are comparable on that.

EDIT2: Deathwing crossing dimensions didn't do 5-B damage, indeed. But that wasn't his power alone. That was the result of his power, similar to one powering up and destroying nearby mountains. Imagine you are under a table. And you rise up so hard you crash the table into two and bypass it. Thats what Deathwing did to reality. I don't know if this can be calculated, but it still needs immense amounts of power to pull off. And Deathwing has faced the Dragon Aspects alone at 10 times the power he currently is, so AP feats aren't really a problem. One could even just say he is superior to Arthas and get done with it.
 
I just answered him along with this post. Im sorry if this is rude, but Im getting the feeling nobody reads what I write and I actually attempt to answer all questions formally here.
 
First, I apologze for my ingnornce, but what does WoT stand for (I know this is probably a stupid question)?

Secondly, similar feats those not warrent scaling.
 
I didn't disregard physics, you disregarded how Fictional Battles work. A bit of logic is welcome now and then, that isn't negating durability at all. You can read on that.

And I didn't, I answered it in my post, once again, does anybody read these?
 
WoT is a wall of text. And similar feats mean they are comparable on that sense, yes it does. If someone pushes a Solar System and another guy manages to punch a Solar System away, it is still 4-B. So yeah, they are comparable on that sense.
 
Ah, so what you are saying is Arthas has 5-B feats.

Can you give me some?

EDIT: Drakes where never sated to be 5-B, or even approaching that, so being vastly superior to human Arthas is still not 5-B. Defeating all the heroes is impressive, but we still don't know if the weakened Kil-Jaeden was even comprable to his full form.
 
I didn't initially see your edit. Also, pretty much everything you're saying is head cannon can you provide any sort of concrete proof of any of it? Also ten times his current strength? It would need to be in the millions for a 5-B upgrade.
 
First and foremost, his power literally comes from a 5-B being and grew out of its control (doesn't necessarily translate into 5-B, but is still a nice mention). Oneshotted the heroes of Azeroth, who have fought and killed many powerhouses who have "destroyed" worlds, such as Malygos, Dimensius, Mongrethod and others (we have debated more on this above, not all of this is planetbusting, but Dimensius is likely 5-B and considering Malygos is his superior, this translates to other feats and so on).

Also, just to remind you guys that Deathwing only got 10 times stronger since he was Neltharion, and 10x 6-A or 5-C isn't 5-B. Low 5-B to 5-B is more than 10x. So Deathwing's power, who is nearly comparable to Archimonde in feats and power, even in WoW's own fanbase. If he is 5-B as Deathwing, he is not going anywhere soon.

Arda, there are other points, here on this post as well, in fact. Also, even if it was, say, half Kil'Jaeden's power, even less, 1/3, maybe lower, he would still be 5-B, even if Low 5-B.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency

Here, you can check by yourself the distance between tiers in times.
 
One shotting the players with Soul Manipulation that ignores Durability doesn't mean absolutely anything. Players go to the greatest extent to obtain sufficiently good equiptment even obtaining jewelry and trinkets like disembodied heads and what not other talismans just so that they can withstand a couple of hits from bosses. And they still have to gather in droves of 20+ and utilize incredible amounts of teamwork to take dow each and every boss.

So when Arthas completely ignores all of that equiptment he ends up one shotting nothing but fodder that can be killed by Gnolls.

Malygod planet busting? And he was killed with the help of all Dragon Flights.
 
Well, to summon him, they used one of the greatest sorcerers alive, Kael'thas, a great magical artifact that once caused the destruction of a planet, Ner'Zhul's staff and context.
 
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