MASSIVE Warcraft Revision

[Anderson2003]

Yes it is, check their profiles. In fact:

Attack Potency: At least Moon level, likely far higher (Far superior to Mongrethod, Dimensius, and other entities that destroyed entire planets, the latter over time. Lore states that the most powerful of Eredar can destroy planets, and Kil'jaeden is among the strongest. Archimonde was going to destroy Draenor, see note)

Note: The Reason for the tiering, in the prophet's book, Velen, we see this quote.

"This last being leveled the rock sculptures around him, clearing a space where he could kneel in the dust made from his destruction and draw symbols of dread power with his clawed finger. When he finished, there was a moment of perfect quiet as the slaughter halted and the entire world waited in horrified stillness.

And then, an explosion.

The unleashed energies ripped the world's surface apart, and Anduin found himself crying out and throwing his arms up in terror, but the magics moved right through him without harm. The Legion marched back into the portal, returning to the dark nexus of the demons' dwelling, and in their wake was left... nothing." -Velen: Prophet's Lessions.

In this, a casual unnamed Eredar, effortlessly below Archimonde or Kil'jaeden, destroyed the crust of an entire planet.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

I've tested the Argus fight on Heroic (Argus being a Titan, and the final Boss of Legion). He wipes the raid, and while we're trying to resurrect ourselves, Argus tries to cast "The End of All Things".

Idk what this means, but this should suggest that Argus is so strong, he could end all of Existence himself.

Sargeras is NOT Over-hyped, if Argus could do this. Stop suggesting this.

Also, to the other guy, please stop using Visions, and old lore that may be retconned to help your "Suggestions". Mannoroth is not Planet Level, Grom struck Mannoroth in 2 Lucky shots. 1 Being directly in the gut, the other being when Mannoroth dropped his guard.

Jaina, Thrall, and Arthas are fine. They're not going anywhere. What we do need, however, are Argus feats. And, judging by the fight, Ik how his feats are measured. His "End of all things" ability was a 12 second cast, and the Heroes stopped him at the last second (AKA, the Players). I think we could assume that, had he not been interrupted, Argus would've ended EVERYTHING! Not just our Universe.

 

[Anderson2003]

OK, first: Using Old lore that may be retconned is suddenly bad why exactly? It hasn't been retconned yet and for quite the while now, considering most of the things I speak of are from Warcraft 3 and have remained the same for 15 goddamn years. I never said that Mannoroth would be planet level bro, read the original post. And even if it IS retconned, it hasn't been yet, so yeah, not an argument for ya there.

And Grom killed Mannoroth with one blow TWICE, consistency is valor and even IF he was "lucky", he still managed to shove his axe directly into Mannoroth and kill him which would leads into him being superior.

Jaina, Thrall and Arthas are all Unknown. We couldn't even give them a proper tier.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

"Kil'jaeden and Archimonde should get downgraded because being stronger than some random Eradar who destroyed a planet doesn't make you tier 5." Not the exact words, but this is what you were aiming for.

I'm not sure what to say. I'm surprised, I guess. It makes no sense, of course, but still, it got me.

Also, quick note. Grom one-shoted Mannoroth too many times for it to be considered "lucky" or "unreliable".

 

[Anderson2003]

Actually, ThisIsMySwagPackm its the opposite.

Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden should get UPGRADED because being stronger than some random Eredar who destroyed a planet makes you above Moon Level.

And there are many other "world destroying" beings in WoW, so others such as Deathwing, Arthas as LK, the Aspects and so on should also be At least Planet Level.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Well, yeah. They are somewhere around that level. But downgrading them from their current tier, which Bepo suggested, is ridiculous.

 

[Anderson2003]

I agree. Especially his Old Gods, Titans, Sargeras and all ratings. I mean, everyone is 6-A now, amIrite?

Anyways, there is enough evidence to make nearly every WoW character 5-B. I mean, most important characters are above the likes of Dimensius, Mongrethod, Murmur(even though Bepo made some nice points defending that he may not scale to others) and guys such as those, who are stated to destroy entire worlds (planets).

Im just wondering how we are going to scale Illidan (pre Eye of Sargeras), Arthas (DK), Jaina, Thrall (pre Dragon Soul), Gul'dan, Mannoroth, Cenarius, Malfurion and all those. Are they going to be 5-B as well? Seems KINDA reasonable considering the Raid Boss argument but even then, I should probably replay WC3 to find some better statements.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Anderson, can I add Argus' feat thing, also?

http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things

Right here.

 

[Anderson2003]

Well, if it is legit... I do know Argus is the supposed final boss of Legion, being a blue Galactus-like Titan. If possible, provide a video. This is actually quite a legit feat, in fact. How do the heroes stop Argus at all, tbh? Add some context for me, but I guess it could be added, considering it does legit mention he'd kill EVERYTHING.

In fact, I wonder how this would be tiered. This could actually upgrade Sargeras.

EDIT: Well, I guess the feat would be either High 3-A or Low 2-C. If wanked, it could possibly be taken as 2-A. How do we beat Argus?

 

[Antvasima]

The problem here is that I am far too tired and overworked in general to properly evaluate this discussion, and other staff members do not seem interested so far.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ZUOpnLZlA


Here's a video. Apparently, while we're in the Spirit World, Argus tries to cast this. We stop him at the last second.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Also, how do we beat Argus? We get empowered by the Titans.

 

[Anderson2003]

That would purely scale to Sargeras as he is above Argus quite easily. Since we were empowered by the Titans, it makes sense that we were able to beat him.

I believe that the feat is kinda weird in regards to how it would be scaled, but in any way, it would still be enough to place Sargeras just slightly below where he is right now, where he is currently placed or higher.

If everyone is alright with the 5-B scaling in regards to nearly everyone, that would be nice. Some pages also need keys, such as Thrall's (Warrior | Shaman | Dragon Soul), Arthas' (Paladin | Death Knight | Lich King), Illidan's (Pre-Demon | w/Skull of Gul'Dan | w/Eye of Sargeras) and others. Also, should I scale them into 5-B as well, even those of the weaker lot (such as Mannoroth and Grom)? I do believe we should find a better way to scale them.

 

[Bepo4151]

I disagree with everyone being 5-B it contradicts the lore and they are barely pulling 6-A feats with prep and help. Can't say anything about Argus because I haven't played on the ptr. But i guess if Argus really can destroy anything then Sargeras and him should be upgraded to 3-A or whatever rating destroying anything in the universe is.

 

[Anderson2003]

You are the only one that seems to disagree and there's a shitton of evidence of them being 5-B, so yeah, you stand alone on that one.

Argus is was about to cast a spell mentioned to "destroy creation and all things", which can be considered High 3-A, Low 2-C or higher, and that easily translates to Sargeras.

 

[Bepo4151]

You are the only one that seems to disagree and there's a shitton of evidence of them being 5-B, so yeah, you stand alone on that one.
Argus is was about to cast a spell mentioned to "destroy creation and all things", which can be considered High 3-A, Low 2-C or higher, and that easily translates to Sargeras.

You want to upgrade everyone to 5-B based on Murmur being a low tier that you can't confirm. taking "destroying worlds" as planet busting. And disregarding anti-feats such as the one Illidan has.

 

[Anderson2003]

You want to upgrade everyone to 5-B based on Murmur being a low tier that you can't confirm. taking "destroying worlds" as planet busting. And disregarding anti-feats such as the one Illidan has.

Read what I posted other than the Murmur discussion. There are many, MANY, MAAAAANY other characters who we kill, aren't weakened or etc, and are mentioned to bust planets. Many of them which are weaklings. You can google more, but there are a few on Archimonde's page already. Murmur is just ANOTHER possible example, since you did make some good points on him not relating to others.

 

[Bepo4151]

"Kil'jaeden and Archimonde should get downgraded because being stronger than some random Eradar who destroyed a planet doesn't make you tier 5." Not the exact words, but this is what you were aiming for.

No that was not what I said. The Eredar didn't destroy a planet he destroyed the crest of a planet with unknown size. That's not 5-B

 

[Bepo4151]

Read what I posted other than the Murmur discussion. There are many, MANY, MAAAAANY other characters who we kill, aren't weakened or etc, and are mentioned to bust planets. Many of them which are weaklings. You can google more, but there are a few on Archimonde's page already. Murmur is just ANOTHER possible example, since you did make some good points on him not relating to others.

Stop taking "destroying a world" as planet busting. It could mean a lot of things. it could mean wiping the surface of a plant that's not 5-B. it could mean killing everybody on the planet that's again not 5-B. And when your high tiers that you want to upgrade need prep to do a 6-A feat I don't think we should take "destroying a world" as planet busting

 

[Anderson2003]

Destroying a world does equal to planet busting. You are seriously downplaying, I could actually mention a few characters/items/etc. that are stated to destroy worlds.

Also, no Destroying a World does not mean lots of things. A World is a Planet and Destroying it is Destroying a Goddamn world. The unnamed Eredar wipes the surface of a unknown planet, so yes, that is not destroying a world.

High Tiers needing prep to do a 6-A feat? What are you, insane? Mid-High Tiers from WoW (Deathwing) casually, through waking up, reshaped the surface of the world and ****** it up causing something known as the Cataclysm. What would that guy do while serious and not waking up, I wonder? Especially when there are characters that "destroy worlds" present left, right and centre?

EDIT: In fact, WoW is pretty specific with things. When the Eredar destroyed the crust of a planet, it was stated he destroyed the crust of the planet. I really don't know why you're downplaying so much, but me and the others on this thread are seriously getting annoyed at such levels of downplaying.

 

[Bepo4151]

High Tiers needing prep to do a 6-A feat? What are you, insane? Mid-High Tiers from WoW (Deathwing) casually, through waking up, reshaped the surface of the world and ****** it up causing something known as the Cataclysm. What would that guy do while serious and not waking up, I wonder? Especially when there are characters that "destroy worlds" present left, right and centre?
Ahh no, Deathwing didn't do that by walking. He broke the dimensional walls between Azeroth and the elemental planes. Then the elemental planes started to manifest on Azeroth. And the surface of Azeroth started to collapse into Deepholm. That caused the earthquakes and the tsunamis Deathwing destroyed a few cities and mountains.

 

[Anderson2003]

Even then, Bepo, him waking up BROKE THE DIMENSIONAL WALLS BETWEEN AZEROTH AND THE ELEMENTAL PLANE. He did so by waking up. Everyone is not 6-A because you wish they are. Read the thread again and again if you will, but you are the only one that constantly downplays here. I mean, Sargeras as 4-B? Seriously? Please, if you have nothing substantial to add, stop. Lets not forget that nobodies have surface wiping feats as well, even if they are not 5-B.

 

[Bepo4151]

Even then, Bepo, him waking up BROKE THE DIMENSIONAL WALLS BETWEEN AZEROTH AND THE ELEMENTAL PLANE. He did so by waking up. Everyone is not 6-A because you wish they are. Read the thread again and again if you will, but you are the only one that constantly downplays here. I mean, Sargeras as 4-B? Seriously? Please, if you have nothing substantial to add, stop.

I'm not downplaying I think upgrading every character to 5-B will be insane wank. About Sargeras I already agreed that he shouldn't be downgraded if that stays on the Ptr so i don't see the point of bringing it up. You see I don't usually go to test heroic bosses months before the patch comes out. and before that Sargeras didn't have a single 3-B feat.

 

[Anderson2003]

You do know that Sargeras is above the Pantheon and Aman'thul, who are responsible for creating all life, planets, solar system and galaxies on the Universe, right? How would he be 4-B???

Also, its not insane wank. Unnamed Eredar, Dimensius, Mongrethod, Murmur and others of which are "world destroyers" (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Planet) and yet them being 5-B is "insane wank" why exactly? Please.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Anderson

Please compile your feats and explanations on a blog rather than getting into a massive flame war with Bepo.

I do not feel like sifting through all of that information at the moment and given my lacking knowledge of Warcraft, it's best to consolidate the most important points of your argument so the Staff at large can evaluate it.

 

[Bepo4151]

You do know that Sargeras is above the Pantheon and Aman'thul, who are responsible for creating all life, planets, solar system and galaxies on the Universe, right? How would he be 4-B???

Thats wrong on so many levels.

 

[Anderson2003]

Reppuzan, if you will, close this and I shall do said blog eventually. That is, if possible.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'd rather see the blog first before I close this, since discussion still seems to be needed.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

I disagree with everyone being 5-B it contradicts the lore and they are barely pulling 6-A feats with prep and help. Can't say anything about Argus because I haven't played on the ptr. But i guess if Argus really can destroy anything then Sargeras and him should be upgraded to 3-A or whatever rating destroying anything in the universe is.

I've done the PTR. It's a litteral insta wipe if you fail it. It's all just over.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

You do know that Sargeras is above the Pantheon and Aman'thul, who are responsible for creating all life, planets, solar system and galaxies on the Universe, right? How would he be 4-B???
Also, its not insane wank. Unnamed Eredar, Dimensius, Mongrethod, Murmur and others of which are "world destroyers" (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Planet) and yet them being 5-B is "insane wank" why exactly? Please.

They're not responsible of making it. You have the Light And Shadow to thank for that.


However, they are strong enough to Control them, Destroy them, and so forth. Aman'thul can litterally re-write time itself. However, that's not without consequences. That's why he warned Nozdorumu of that, before his departure.

Argus can destroy all of Creation. However, he's likely not only gifted, but he's also likely empowered by Sargeras during this battle. However, these "empowerments" might just be his armor. Cause, without it, he looks like a deformed being with no skull, no nose, no ears, nothing.

He even has a Mythic Phase, where he grows all Red, and empowered and shit. So, it doesn't end there.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Even then, Bepo, him waking up BROKE THE DIMENSIONAL WALLS BETWEEN AZEROTH AND THE ELEMENTAL PLANE. He did so by waking up. Everyone is not 6-A because you wish they are. Read the thread again and again if you will, but you are the only one that constantly downplays here. I mean, Sargeras as 4-B? Seriously? Please, if you have nothing substantial to add, stop.

I'm not downplaying I think upgrading every character to 5-B will be insane wank. About Sargeras I already agreed that he shouldn't be downgraded if that stays on the Ptr so i don't see the point of bringing it up. You see I don't usually go to test heroic bosses months before the patch comes out. and before that Sargeras didn't have a single 3-B feat.

Well, I spoiled it for ya then.


Also, Argus' End of All things ability talks about what he does in the spell's description. http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=256544/end-of-all-things

He ENDS Creation. We're not talking about Azeroth here. We're talking about the Universe, the timelines, and so forth. They're ALL on Sargeras' Crusade list, and they're all of Creation. Argus ENDS that. Idek how we're capable of beating this guy. But, i'd suggest that it's Plot, I think.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

As for every other Character, idk. I'd actually take out Jaina, and Thrall in terms of the 6-A's. Cause, without the Iris, Jaina is SEVERLY weak. Like, she couldn't even defeat Rommath in battle. However, with the Iris, she'd actually be 6-B, with Arthas being around High 6-B, low 6-A. Deathwing being Low 5-C for me.

Kil'jaeden/Archimonde are an instant 5-A. Idc who you are, they should be at that rank.

Sargeras should be around High 3-B for me. But, that's all he should get. Argus is a "Special" case, cause I know he's been empowered by SOMEONE, to make him this Strong. Maybe he was born with it, idk. But, in reality, I think Sargeras granted him MUCH power before his fight with the Champion's of Azeroth. Think of it as this: If the Pantheon could aid the Heroes, why can't Sargeras with Argus? Mm? Yeah...

So, for Argus- I'd say 3-A/High 2-A if empowered by Sargeras (Maybe around Low 2-C, idk), to Low 3-B in reality. But, if he isn't empowered by Sargeras, and if he truely is as powerful as he's said to be, then Sargeras isn't going to die, only because of our fatigue after battling the Unmaker. So, the second best option? Jail him.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Honestly, it's just a HUGE matter of perspective.


I know a LOT of WoW lore, and abilities, so...I'm only saying these things based around the books i've read, to playing the damn game. :/

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Permission to add in Argus the Unmaker feats, since most of his fight has been leaked?

 

[Antvasima]

Bepo has a good point in that "destroying a world" could mean many things. Technically a 7-B character is enough to wipe out human civilisation, if it took enough time doing so, and if nothing was stated about shattering planets in single strikes, this seems unreliable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Thank you for trying to evaluate this.

 

[Bepo4151]

So, for Argus- I'd say 3-A/High 2-A if empowered by Sargeras (Maybe around Low 2-C, idk), to Low 3-B in reality. But, if he isn't empowered by Sargeras, and if he truely is as powerful as he's said to be, then Sargeras isn't going to die, only because of our fatigue after battling the Unmaker. So, the second best option? Jail him.

I don't think it will be tier 2. As far as I'm aware you need an evidence of destroying spacetime to be tier 2. And also Sargeras goal is lifeless universe rather than no universe at all. So I thnk 3-A or High 3-A is fine but we should wait for the patch to come out of ptr before making a profile for Argus.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

So, for Argus- I'd say 3-A/High 2-A if empowered by Sargeras (Maybe around Low 2-C, idk), to Low 3-B in reality. But, if he isn't empowered by Sargeras, and if he truely is as powerful as he's said to be, then Sargeras isn't going to die, only because of our fatigue after battling the Unmaker. So, the second best option? Jail him.

I don't think it will be tier 2. As far as I'm aware you need an evidence of destroying spacetime to be tier 2. And also Sargeras goal is lifeless universe rather than no universe at all. So I thnk 3-A or High 3-A is fine but we should wait for the patch to come out of ptr before making a profile for Argus.
No. Sargeras wants both a Lifeless Universe, and no Universe, rather than a Void Corrupted one. The Void isn't empty, it's just a realm of darkness and chaos. Remember, in the Illidan novel, Sargeras didn't just want our Universe destroyed, but he wanted EVERYTHING destroyed. So, his Legion went from timeline to timeline destroying shit. And, if a new timeline appeared, the Legion would attack that, and so forth. Hell, Vandel (Who was Illidan's first Demon Hunter) saw Sargeras destroy countless Worlds across different realities. That's what Sargeras means by "Destroying the Universe". He means destroy EVERYTHING, not just our main Universe.


Which is why I want to put Argus on Tier 2, namely due to him being capable of ending Creation itself.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Also, in Aggramar's Boss Description:

"He now stands at the Core of Argus, guarding a power that could unmake the Universe".

In WoW, the Universe means MUCH more than our main Universe. It's litterally every AU out there, every timeline and so forth.


And Azeroth's Titan is way more powerful. Infact, she (Azeroth's a she, btw) is stated to be stronger than even Sargeras. That is, if she ever awakens, which she will. However, if she was ever corrupted by the Void, then EVERYTHING would be but a mere playground to her. Not even Sargeras at this rate, could dare face her. Not even the Pantheon.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Bepo has a good point in that "destroying a world" could mean many things. Technically a 7-B character is enough to wipe out human civilisation, if it took enough time doing so, and if nothing was stated about shattering planets in single strikes, this seems unreliable.

I think here, however, we're more or less talking about how they could destroy a planet in only 2-3 strikes. Which is, pretty much, impossible for people like Jaina, Arthas, and more.