Alright, now it's getting out of hand.
They don’t reset anything, they just return to a point in time where they saved. Sans even says this verbatim. “Timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting...” He says that they are stopping, not being reset or destroyed. You start from the place you saved, and depending on the events that occur, that timeline splits.
As pointed out in the blog "stopping" for as in erasing everything, everything ending and the timelines being consumed, and a reset happening is said quite a lot of times. A timeline splitting is not a thing, that's a headcanon.
@AogiriKira They already can comment here on that terms, this was even said before. Your other comment was as necessary as this being a staff thread.
The game is centered around Frisk, yes, but I don't know what gives you the idea that the gameworld is encompassed by the timeline, as opposed to vice versa or hell, even that they are coterminous. The gameworld is implicitly, if not explicitly the structure that allows things like save files to exist at all, which very blatantly are a medium through which the timeline can be controlled.
Standard assumptions make the biggest, unproven claims don't matter. The second sentence makes the game as relevant as a thing that let's one have Time Manip; why do we care about it?
I mean, I guess this is a fair point against the gameworld encompassing the timeline, but then wouldn't this actually support the notion that they intersect and/or are the same, which you seem to be against?
Well, I agree that they "intersect" as in like a page of a comic a comicbook character with 4th Wall Awareness can mess with, that's so simple and vague nobody could disagree with it. But from that to claim doing certain things to the page or comic gives a certain tier to the character when unproven there I obviously disagree with the matter.
Is this supposed to be a point against the game being on at least the same level as the timeline? Because this part makes no sense.
It makes perect sense. I don't see how you believe otherwise.
I don't see what's "redundant" about what I said about how save files work, nor how I am giving more meaning to how certain powers work. Everything I said should make perfect sense to players of Undertale, so why don't we ask other people what they think?
Redundant over the info we already know, not what you said. With some parts being undeservedly emphasized, which is good to point out when I already considerd previous conclusions to come out of nowhere. Also when you said "They can perform a Reset to clear the data on their save file, effectively resetting the timeline" that holds to proof of being how it works, it's more likely that the reset of the timeline cleared the data of the file as they have no process saved now, not the other way around.
I never said he could do it all at once, that's a straw man.
Then you're headcanon would change to be him being able to "wipe everyone out [by more than 1 at a time on an unproven scale that should fix the claimed rating]", which in turn, just so happens to be what would be a tier that would let him wipe everyone out at once, it doesn't matter. You can take what Flowey said as correct if you don't give him an unproven tier that makes what he said be wrong.
I'll admit that I chose a bad way to express my point, but you didn't address my point.
I saw no point to it, hoping you to reconsider what I believe is basic
- "considering that there is literally no other room in the game that is like this. This, in my opinion, strongly suggests that he did some sort of fuckery to the world itself": That is a headcanon, logical assumptions take it being a roon in the game we didn't see (as very, very obviously the Underground is pretty big) or that he did mess some things (making the background black) around there, meters aways, tens of meters away, kilometers, and at the end of the made up stuff you have him having done "some sort of f*ckery to the world itself", this is very obviously a headcanon with when one can assume less wide, and thus more likely things, and that's all even ignoring how we're outright told everyone is still alive.
- "especially when combined with Flowey remarking that Frisk is all alone in his world and mockingly suggesting them to cry into the darkness for help.": This is beyond absurd as it is invalidated by something as simple as what he said still making sense without making having done "some sort of f*ckery to the world itself".
- "I also find the idea that the human SOULs teleported Frisk behind the barrier to be flawed, considering the fact that, as we can see both after the fight and in the True Pacifist Ending, the room where Frisk can exit to the surface is still part of the underground.": The barrier is gone by then.
I never denied that first thing, and we know Asriel was messing around with Frisk up until he decided to unleash Hyper Goner, anyway. As for the second part, on what grounds are Asriel's stats hyperbolic? I'm genuinely curious.
Headcanon, once again are told how things are and it's being ignored. Asriel stops holding back when going 100%, the Hyper Goner was before it, thus, it wasn't his true power. It can be assumed that the Hyper Goner was unknown properties Asriel didn't expect Frisk to survive (Absorption, EE, something related to the lore on that attack's shape, we don't know, we know it was just a very strong attack while still not him at 100% and that is good enough). It doesn't matter the other part.
Putting aside the fact that I am still allowed to post on staff-only threads as a retired administrator (for Joke Battles, but still), Kira made good points as to why this shouldn't be a staff-only discussion in the first place.
I already tried that before, twice actually, I don't find it worth it over being ignored over and over again, having to say the same over and over, sometimes dealing with arguments I personally consider very cringy, and incomplete reasons/comments I need to ask in a conversation to be less vague on what they meant. +Derailment.
He did refer to regular DETERMINATION abilities as being able to "play God" and "reshape the world" beforehand, yes, but he only ever manipulated the gameworld in an indirect manner by reseting the timeline, and only started directly warping things around once he had the Six SOULs, so, those would be statements that are similar, yes, but that would apply under entirely different contexts.
..but, still, why does this matter at all? Why does it apply to anything we care about to debateabout? Imagine from your point of view I'm correct and he is Unknown with lots of hax don't do anything to his AP; he would be a god and this would still be him referring to himself as a god under an entirely different context. This adds literally nothing to the idea of him being Low 2-C.
He could definitely do this at the time, yes, given how he could pretty effortlessly restrain the entire main cast when he had absorbed the Six SOULs in the Pacifist Route, and could take the SOULs of every monster in the Underground as well. He didn't exterminate every Monster in the Neutral Route because he wanted to break the Barrier and drag humans into his hell too, which he couldn't accomplish without a seventh SOUL. So, yes, him saying that he hadn't done it yet doesn't imply that he was incapable of doing so.
No, it's still a headcanon, he only restrained some dozens or so of characters and taking their SOULs is hax. We add that to him saying he can't kill everyone and we have him not being able to kill everyone, at least not all at once. The rest is structurally a headcanon, and he didn't say he hasn't done it yet, he there communicates wanting to do it but needing Frisk's SOUL first. He also didn't care to kill monsters in the Geno. route.
Frisk also crossed the Barrier and escaped the Underground because they had a Human SOUL, which has enough power to allow individuals to pass through it without the need to destroy it, as seen with Asriel. The Six SOULs had nothing to do with this, and in fact didn't even teleport them to the outside world, or anything of the sort.
This makes no sense, Frisk had a human SOUL and the human SOULs themselves "had nothing to do with this"? This does nothing to point out why Flowey's "current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" when he has what needs to it x6, the headcanon you made would now need to have the headcanon of him not wanting to pass through it but destroy it.
The existence of a lower-end interpretation doesn't necessarily disprove the validity of a higher-end scenario, especially when, again, this interpretation of yours has absolutely no backing and is mostly just baseless speculation. The very fact that Chara destroying the gameworld was clearly portrayed as a Low 2-C feat already shows that "Undertale" as a structure encompasses the entire setting of the story, as well as the fact that a Reset (A function of the gameworld) can affect the outside world beyond the Barrier.
Of course, your argument against the former feat being evidence for the gameworld being Low 2-C, as far as I recall, is something along the lines of "Chara's destruction probably just happened to have destroyed both the gameworld and the timeline, and their phrasing was just an imprecision!" and if I am on the right mark here, I'd like to ask you to present some evidence pointing towards this interpretation, outside of your intuition on what's the "most logical" take, or whatever.
We would take the higher-end scenario as a logical conclusion when the takes of how everything works deem doing so, I replied to something just asked for it knowing what they are. It's a headcanon to say that what Chara did was portrayed that way as opposed to Chara having destroyed both. If a camera films a characters who destroys the universe and the camera does or doesn't get destroyed too then why does it matter? It broke the 4th wall or not, it doesn't matter, if the camera can also be used as an item that can turn back time in the whole universe then it still doesn't matter, it would be like destroying something in-universe that can do the same.
My take is on all the takes I see as more likely that don't make O. Flowy Low 2-C, something like it being one of them. Idk what you mean by "probably just happened to have destroyed both" [things that makes us see the setting] and [the setting], why would it not do so? Have you ever seen something like the multiverse getting destroyed and even the pages of the comic getting destroyed? Or some explosion shaking the camera when it shouldn't? The phrasing was correct, did Chara destroy the timeline? Yes, therefore it's correct. Another take is that it might all be like comicbook worlds inside a comic where destroying the comicbook destroys the whole setting within it, like it could be the case in UT, but this doesn't mean a characters messing up pages of the real comic, which has inside their whole timeline, is Low 2-C via messing with something that encompasses the timeline, because it does so in the same way a universe in a tiny cup may to the same. If you add in the page the crazy abilities like Time Manip that affects all the universe of the comic then sure, what about it? Characters messing with it is still much the same as them having those powers themselves.
It isn't, no, but if said character also displayed the ability to warp reality throughout the area spanned by both of these buildings, then that would indeed be a feat for them.
And this I see as unknown to claim in Flowey's case, it can't be proven he did that and not just write some thing at one side of 1 thing.
You seem to be treating a SAVE File as something more akin to a gateway to a bookmarked point in time, or something along those lines, which as far as I am aware, goes against what a Save File is to begin with, which is a way to record your progress in the game up to a certain point: It's a snapshot of a certain point in time, if you will, and if Flowey can just destroy one entirely with no ill effects on his version of the world, then this indicates that his own SAVE File was existing independently from Frisk's.
I take it as Time Manip (turning back time) or a bit less likely as Causality Manip, not really as Time Travel but it could in fact be that
and have a progress too simultaneously. If the ability didn't let you reset to zero then it would rember the beginning, but it does, and even as time travel every time it's SAVEd the file rememers how you did it, knows your name and LV, and let's you go back to the last point saved, all that is a progress, the file has no reason to just and only be used to go back into a later point. Flowey being able to destroy this and his power existing independently is a non-feat, he just destroyed a thing you used for your powers and had his own.
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