Massive Homestuck Overhaul (Additions, Removals and changes) (Act 2)

[Thelastmlg]

Alright, Act 1 is concluded so now we'll go to act 2, for real this time, so let's remember what's being dealt with:

• Additions
• Removals
• Justifications
• Minor fixes
• Ignore stats for now

HOMESTUCK OVERHAUL PART 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

Important to note, the unbreakable katana and genesis frog pages are, imo, unnecessary and should be deleted, so i didn't touch them, and the derse and alternia profiles are mostly adding stuff from other pages so i'll leave to deal with them in the future

don't think i need to list the profiles here since we just tend to deal with multiple at a time lol

 

[Thelastmlg]

bump

 

[Eseseso]

Finally Lord English is getting a page overhaul.

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

Agree

 

[y3p_owo]

Looks good

 

[Thelastmlg]

bump

 

[Thelastmlg]

bump

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I agree with all this aside from Alt Calliope's Passive Power Null. It sounds more like Alt Calliope is superior to Dirk (which she is) and gained more control over him, and even Dirk describes it as a "metanarrative tug-of-war"

 

[Thelastmlg]

I agree with all this aside from Alt Calliope's Passive Power Null. It sounds more like Alt Calliope is superior to Dirk (which she is) and gained more control over him, and even Dirk describes it as a "metanarrative tug-of-war"

yeah i see what you mean, she was even talking about actively securing the story prior to that line, so her presence is refering to her being there in general rather than literally being a passive ability

though wouldn't that still be power nullification, since she said that she would "mitigate, if not altogether subdue, the corrosive effect on reality and the will of its occupants" like she was removing the changes dirk was causing

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

yeah i see what you mean, she was even talking about actively securing the story prior to that line, so her presence is refering to her being there in general rather than literally being a passive ability

though wouldn't that still be power nullification, since she said that she would "mitigate, if not altogether subdue, the corrosive effect on reality and the will of its occupants" like she was removing the changes dirk was causing

Given the other definitions of power null (like making an ability less relevant) I’d say it still works, it just isn’t passive imo.

 

[deonment]

Here we go again, give me a bit

 

[deonment]

All the guardians are fine

Doc Scratch

Immortality (Types 1 and 4, upon his death, Lord English will emerge, who shares the same souls as him)

While this is true, this is kinda scuffed considering how Lord English will specifically only emerge when all the conditions for existence are met within the universe such as the ~ATH program and all that jazz

Acausality (Type 1), Likely Technology Manipulation (Likely created the scratchware, which protects all past and future messages from third party surveillance)

This would also be limited resistance to Cosmic Awareness/ESP, Precognition and Postcognition and full resistance to hacking

Attack Potency: Multiverse level+ (Linked Snowman's life to Bilious Slick, and can reset the timelines within Bilious Slick. Should be comparable to the likes of Becquerel, stated to have powers far surpassing a god, likely referring to god tiers)

Oh boy, here we go
He should just be flat 1-A considering literally everything about him being an author, having power beyond god tiers, we rate him at 2-A currently because of feats he could still perform while he is 1-A and he has no feats otherwise because the people that would scale also have feats of ******* with other 1-As
Thus he should get AP, powers and range equivalent to that of Hussie

Caliborn

Power Nullification with the Juju Breaker (Can nullify any kind of Juju-like power or object by hitting something with the crowbar, negating their effects)

This should embed to the Juju Breaker page

Passive Fate, Probability, Causality and Plot Manipulation (Has a passive control over the forces of inevitability, which make in sort that all outcomes, possibilities, and causality will answer him, to the point of being able to control everything that happens and can happen, even retroactively, to the point of also being protected by the influence of his future selves who mastered these forces [See note])

Immortality and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 8. As a "supreme villain", he can't be stopped from coming into being, nor can he be made dead until Paradox Space allows it. His influence make so that he can also only be truly killed if every point in his existence is "validated", otherwise it will lead to a conceptual unraveling where everything will be "retroactively discredited" [See note])

Please just link the scans rather than linking to Yuri's old blog

"Can unlock any lock"

Link to the stuff about the skeleton key here rather than just leaving it as normal text

>Enhanced Fate, Probability, Causality Manipulation and Plot Manipulation (Unlocked control over the narrative. Now has a full control over the forces of inevitability which are the ones of narrative authority, fate, possibilities and causality)
I think mentioning (and linking to) the Invisible Riddler and Three Pillars of canon here to further elaborate on what said control over the narrative means would be good, for example

Enhanced Fate, Probability, Causality Manipulation and Plot Manipulation (Unlocked control over the narrative, which includes the three pillars of canon. Now has a full control over the forces of inevitability which are the ones of narrative authority, fate, possibilities and causality, and can galvanize the invisible riddler)

Same as before, Energy Projection, Breath Attack, Fire Manipulation, Invulnerability and it's Negation, and Likely Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1, Absorbed the energy of his god tier clock, receiving the clockwork majyyks, allowing him to unleash rainbow energy from his mouth or around his body, which can set things in multicolor fire. Received Invincibility, which made his body invulnerable to everything outside of cueball artifacts, even if they completely overpower him, similar to adult cherubs mating, which are indestructible to anything in existence and yet capable of harming each other. Implied to have destroyed the concept of light at it's very source, likely similar to his older self distorting the aspects themselves, due to possessing the power to destroy everything forever, which would include the Furthest Ring where the aspects reside on)

I think the stuff about the Aspects could be separated from this section of hax, also you could probably move up the resistances in his LE key to this key considering it is where he got the immortality and invul

Likely Abstract Existence (Type 1, Can live as an "essence" within Lil Hal, and all outcomes are part of his being)

This is just straight-up AE1 (also link here please)

Duplication (Countless Incarnations of Doc Scratch spawned across the timelines, all which succeded in summoning Lord English)

Honestly think it would be more apt calling this type 3 acausality than proper duplication

Curse Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation (Has Doc Scratch's powers and cursed the Handmaid with Conditional Mortality, and even when sealed, his curse can affect all of those, no matter their universe or plane of existence, with death and misery)

Should also be power bestowal

Normal Calliope is fine

Alt Calliope

She should have AE1 for her "true self" as she should be comparable to other Narrative level forces + the black hole having consumed the green sun and thus making it metaphysical in nature, in addition to the stuff about her relation to Earth C + her whole bit about being everywhere at once

showcased the clockwork majyyks while referencing his catchphrase

This reasoning shouldn't be here considering how that effect is just associated with Cherubs in general rather than just being Caliborn exclusive, and that isn't really a reference anyways in my mind, it is instead speaking about her whole omnipresent nature, just use the first scan alone and how she completely unified with LE

Space-Time Manipulation, Duplication, Fusionism, Mind Manipulation, Pocket Reality Manipulation, Dimensional Manipulation, Matter Manipulation (Macro-Quantum) and Void Manipulation (After absorbing the Green Sun, her black hole form started breaking and consuming the Furthest Ring, putrefying quarks and leptons while shredding the void's infinity of it's dimensions, dissolved a shard of the furthest ring on her chest, Davebot stated that she has control over the cosmos and being able to be in all places at once, Calliope described her as having full control over the fabric of space, and her powers allow her to exist in multiple narrative structures, Likely created a dimensional space containing a universe that she has control over and brought her mind and Jade's there with physical forms, later consolidated with the other manifestation of her mind into a single Calliope)

I would say you should just separate the stuff from her Black Hole stuff into a different P&A and justification since it should all be passive + it should include concept and plot hax considering how her Black Hole was capable of completely devouring the Green Sun (+ you could make an argument for her having all its powers but I'm decently sure that would be included in other stuff anyways so shrug)

Beta Jack

He also loses his powers should he lose the ring, if the green sun is destroyed or he leaves it's domain.

That last bit is incorrect, the scan in question speaks about their ability to teleport in particular, especially considering how he and the rest of the Green Sun empowered people stay fully empowered during their travel throughout the furthest ring

Alpha Jack

Invulnerability

If you are arguing this then you should also give him LE's resistances to stuff

PM is fine

Black King is fine (though I feel his abilities are a bit too little, though that in part is probably because not a lot of lusus "hax" was shown in series)

Snowman is fine

Spades is fine

Hussie is fine

Liv Tyler is fine

MSPA Reader

Immortality (Type 8, MSPA Reader can't die due to being a main character and a narrative device)

This could honestly apply to a bunch of other characters outside of the MSPA Reader (IE the kids)

He should also get (limited) absorption considering how he literally absorbed the Green Sun

Also First Guardian got to keep Aca type 5, as can be seen here

Horrorterrors

Multiversal+ Level

This should be Multiverse Level+

Cherubs

Enhanced Energy Projection, Aura, Invulnerability and Negation of it (They tap into the enigmatic forces representing immortality, which manifest as technicolor energy they can unleash, this makes them indestructible to anything besides themselves)

Should have LE's Invul based resistances

Unbreakable Katana

Possibly Unbreakability

Already talked about this but no it doesn't qualify

Alternian Empire

I definitely wouldn't consider either the SGRUB or The Felt as part of the empire, also, scans

Derse Empire

Wouldn't it just be better to have one for just, Derse + Prospit considering how they are effectively the same anyways, also, why are denizens here, wut, also scans

 

[Thelastmlg]

snip

i figured that since the ATH programm is there for lord english to arrive while inside doc scratch, it would be around via reality equalization or something

that and a bunch of other reasons is why i think pretty much every 2-A outside of snowman should be 1-A

I HAVE BEEN DEBATING THAT A WHILE, thinking of either or not add the resistances to caliborn himself since lord english's invulnerability stems from his reward, yeah i'll add them there and to jack

the issue i got is that he seems to only live as a essence while inside of lil cal, and the "outcomes are part of his being" part applies to caliborn too, so i think he probably shouldn't have AE in general tbh

the thing is, the effect is only adquired by cherubs while in their mating form, caliborn had to get his reward to get inbued by it, while calliope uses it while in her normal form, which is why i think it is mean't to symbolize her having adquired his power

honestly the katana should just be deleted

and yeah i didn't touch the empire pages yet

 

[deonment]

i figured that since the ATH programm is there for lord english to arrive while inside doc scratch, it would be around via reality equalization or something

Eh, fair nuff

that and a bunch of other reasons is why i think pretty much every 2-A outside of snowman should be 1-A

Eh, no
Literally, nobody else actually scales to the level of a narrator (at least not AP wise) who isn't already a narrator or has some degree of meta fuckery going on (Spades, but I also kinda doubt him having that ability in the first place or the fact that the "hussie" he stabbed was just an avatar but that is neither here nor there), like genuinely who else would scale to the 1-A level

the issue i got is that he seems to only live as a essence while inside of lil cal, and the "outcomes are part of his being" part applies to caliborn too, so i think he probably shouldn't have AE in general tbh

Eh, AE1 for his essence, just not likely AE or anything

the thing is, the effect is only adquired by cherubs while in their mating form, caliborn had to get his reward to get inbued by it, while calliope uses it while in her normal form, which is why i think it is mean't to symbolize her having adquired his power

I mean, maybe, but I think its less solid than her just straight up saying she achieved "ultimate unification" with him

honestly the katana should just be deleted

It probably should

and yeah i didn't touch the empire pages yet

kk

 

[Thelastmlg]

Eh, no
Literally, nobody else actually scales to the level of a narrator (at least not AP wise) who isn't already a narrator or has some degree of meta fuckery going on (Spades, but I also kinda doubt him having that ability in the first place or the fact that the "hussie" he stabbed was just an avatar but that is neither here nor there), like genuinely who else would scale to the 1-A level

I mean, maybe, but I think its less solid than her just straight up saying she achieved "ultimate unification" with him

i'll make a thread way later going over every reasoning i have for them scaling to it, cuz tbh there was more arguments than i thought at first

fair enough

 

[Thelastmlg]

alright updated it

 

[deonment]

nice

Though I remembered the actual name and link for postcognition, we call it retrocognition



Think I prolly worded this wrong

I would say you should just separate the stuff from her Black Hole stuff into a different P&A and justification since it should all be passive + it should include concept and plot hax considering how her Black Hole was capable of completely devouring the Green Sun (+ you could make an argument for her having all its powers but I'm decently sure that would be included in other stuff anyways so shrug)

I meant ,more for you to shift the placement within the P&A rather than actually making it its own section or what have you, I meant more just relocate it in the same P&A because having all the black hole stuff in the same location as her other usage is kinda scuffed to me