Marvel "Upgrades"

[The_Impress]

Also the scaling would be a bit unusual, doesn't Doom's armor separate him from the physical world or something? Nobody (of his level) ever cracks his armor when harming him, let alone let him unconscious, maybe his armor is just that durable, he inside it can be harmed by less, and those wonky "defensive systems" it has do what they can to keep Doom fine when higher impacts reach him.

On the topic of his durability, to quote myself from this thread:

• How he can "easily take a beating from the Thing" doesn't pointed out how he still gets harmed by it, it shouldn't be as "likely higher"
• The attack he took from Galactus should be removed as Galactus was just expeling Doom out of his ship while also feeling like harming Doom on it. He wasn't trying to kill him as he put on the effort to kick him out. How Doom was left after this happened was a very important part of that feat and we also just so happen to ignore.
• The punch that sent him flying around the planet is cool and all but notat his level
• The attack he barely survived from Thanos w/ the IG was with a Thanos who was playing around and how was harmed by a kick from Spider-Man, and tagged by the latter and Wolverine as he was fighting/toying everyone at once.
• Thor was going easy on Doom in Secret Wars and leaved the fight a bit later, Doom's forcefields taking his attack shouldn't go in the "higher" for it.

See I don't know any real instances to contradicting this, but at the same time I do vaguely remember this not being as prominent a thing. Your evidences seem solid, so maybe for now I'll be willing to buy this, but if any contradictions arise I will be asking for a downgrade ASAP

 

[Antvasima]

Anti-Man and Blue Marvel are far from the only heavy hitters that have been downgraded to a lower border of High 6-C.

Can you check through the other recently edited Marvel profile pages as well, and correct them when necessary?

I would still appreciate help with this.

 

[Antvasima]

I noticed that the Trion Juggernaut has matter manipulation and energy manipulation. Where did those abilities come from? I don't remember him demonstrating them during the story. They should probably be removed.

There is this as well.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Hi. Sorry to bust in but since this thread is about feats/statements I found the following reading X-Men #2 (2021) yesterday.

Jean says that Sunfire is a mutant with power of a star and he destroyed the Annihilation Wave that was sent to Earth.



Can this be used in any way?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Hi. Sorry to bust in but since this thread is about feats/statements I found the following reading X-Men #2 (2021) yesterday.

Jean says that Sunfire is a mutant with power of a star and he destroyed the Annihilation Wave that was sent to Earth.



Can this be used in any way?

that High 6A at best.

 

[The_Impress]

...isn't that 4-B and not... any other tier?

In general I think Sunfire page needs to be remade, like, have you seen it recently?

I would still appreciate help with this.

I mean I don't think any other page is like this, except maybe Sentry stuff, which I'll have to recheck greatly

There is this as well.

Sure :v

In general does Trion Juggernaut fit our key guidelines?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

...isn't that 4-B and not... any other tier?

The GBE of a star is tier 4, the energy of it is High 6A

 

[Antvasima]

...isn't that 4-B and not... any other tier?

In general I think Sunfire page needs to be remade, like, have you seen it recently?

Sunfire has never demonstrated the raw power to even blow up planets. We preferably need calculations of his greatest feats. Also, the regular energy output from our Sun per second is somewhere in tier 6 if I remember correctly.

I mean I don't think any other page is like this, except maybe Sentry stuff, which I'll have to recheck greatly

I would appreciate if you check through all of the relevant Marvel pages that you or others edited very recently.

Sure :v

In general does Trion Juggernaut fit our key guidelines?

Good point. We should remove the statistics key then.

 

[Confluctor]

Only three appearances of Trion, so yeet it away

 

[The_Impress]

The GBE of a star is tier 4, the energy of it is High 6A

Annihilation Wave is 4-B tho I think.

 

[Antvasima]

We cannot use guesswork for the durability of a bunch of Mindless Ones without further context.

 

[The_Impress]

Anyways in general I think we should probably delete Sunfire's file.

It looks like it hasn't been updated in years, contains zero proofing, and just straight up has tiers that don't exist anymore.

Also, can I apply at least the tiering suggestions in the OP? Everyone seems to have accepted them, except the Cyclops one, which I guess I won't list.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyways in general I think we should probably delete Sunfire's file.

It looks like it hasn't been updated in years, contains zero proofing, and just straight up has tiers that don't exist anymore.

That seems fine to me.

Also, can I apply at least the tiering suggestions in the OP? Everyone seems to have accepted them, except the Cyclops one, which I guess I won't list.

Okay. That seems fine as well.

 

[The_Impress]

All the revisions in the OP have been applied, currently what's left for discussion is Doom's armor durability suggestion by Eficiente, and I guess Blue Marvel and Anti-Man upgrades.

Already gave my input on the former, and latter... I genuinely think Sentry's claim stating Anti-Man was one of the strongest things he faced, should legitimately given him a 4-B rating.

 

[Eficiente]

For Doom's durability: Large Island level (Doom insade the armor survives attacks on this level either relatively fine or harmed while running the risk of being killed, but the armor itself is more durable. He can take blows from the Thing [and other characters maybe, in the other thread linked above I already showed how the FF should scale]) to Country level (His armor is at this level and Doom has survived unconscious and with minor cracks being near an explosion over a part of the moon)

I don't know if there exists any in-universe explanation we should add in too.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean tbh isn't this just how armors work?

 

[Teezar]

I personally think it's better to remove the High 6-C teir on characters like Thor.

 

[The_Impress]

Again though they're only being listed for scaling purposes, we have made it clear across multiple threads, hell even this one, that it's genuinely not what we think their base form is.

 

[Antvasima]

She-Hulk and the Champion of the Universe also have straight High 6-C ratings, which seems like severe understatements. So we will need to gradually fix that as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Again though they're only being listed for scaling purposes, we have made it clear across multiple threads, hell even this one, that it's genuinely not what we think their base form is.

Anyway, this is correct, yes.

 

[Tyranno223]

Again though they're only being listed for scaling purposes, we have made it clear across multiple threads, hell even this one, that it's genuinely not what we think their base form is.

Shouldn't a note be added to the relevant profiles to reflect this? At the moment, the sentiment is not immediately obvious.

 

[The_Impress]

Shouldn't a note be added to the relevant profiles to reflect this? At the moment, the sentiment is not immediately obvious.

All the characters should have their restraint tiers matchbanned. It leads to unfair representation and SBA wonkyness. We ONLY list them on files for indexing purposes exclusively.

I mean yes, that is indeed the plan :v

 

[Hellbeast]

Again though they're only being listed for scaling purposes, we have made it clear across multiple threads, hell even this one, that it's genuinely not what we think their base form is.

I mean in that case I kinda have to question why we have that listed at all.
It's fine to say "scaling purposes" but it's still something that you could project by just putting a note on the profile and scaling people to their own feats.

Either way it's not obvious at the moment

 

[The_Impress]

She-Hulk and the Champion of the Universe also have straight High 6-C ratings, which seems like severe understatements. So we will need to gradually fix that as well.

What are their feats, if anyone can recall?

Champion of the Universe, uhhh I think Nebula and by proxy a few Guardians of the Galaxy members scale to, She-Hulk, dependent on context, can scale to ALOT of people.

For the record I will remind you all that we're accepting better replacement feats till 5-A.

I mean in that case I kinda have to question why we have that listed at all.
It's fine to say "scaling purposes" but it's still something that you could project by just putting a note on the profile and scaling people to their own feats.

At that moment iirc, Surfer and Thor had mechanics present to lower their strength level accordingly.

Either way it's not obvious at the moment

...help is appreciated. Like, seriously. I am the only one doing Marvel revisions right now and applying them.

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't a note be added to the relevant profiles to reflect this? At the moment, the sentiment is not immediately obvious.

A note in the main verse page that we are currently in the process of gradually revising the verse might be a good idea at least.

 

[Antvasima]

What are their feats, if anyone can recall?

Champion of the Universe, uhhh I think Nebula and by proxy a few Guardians of the Galaxy members scale to, She-Hulk, dependent on context, can scale to ALOT of people.

The Champion was able to give the Silver Surfer a prolonged challenge without the Power Gem.

 

[The_Impress]

Mmmm, Surfer is super weird to scale off of though

 

[Teezar]

I mean in that case I kinda have to question why we have that listed at all.
It's fine to say "scaling purposes" but it's still something that you could project by just putting a note on the profile and scaling people to their own feats.

Either way it's not obvious at the moment

Exactly, we can do general scaling or whatever but we should also scale characters via their feats as it's safer that way.

 

[The_Impress]

This'll make some characters completely featless tho :v

 

[Hellbeast]

For the record I will remind you all that we're accepting better replacement feats till 5-A.

At that moment iirc, Surfer and Thor had mechanics present to lower their strength level accordingly.

Could you elaborate?
I know Thor doesn't hit as hard on Earth or against Earthly foes but that's him pulling punches; not lessening his power passively unless he stopped playing around.

We know Hulk does and Surfer might do because of the Power Cosmic but what about Beta Ray Bill? What about Hercules?

...help is appreciated. Like, seriously. I am the only one doing Marvel revisions right now and applying them.

Ok so open the pages and I can add a Note for you on the needed pages (do you want everyone or just the ones who we're keeping at 5-A?)
If you need people to apply revisions then make a thread calling for volunteers

 

[Antvasima]

Mmmm, Surfer is super weird to scale off of though

Even Nova (the weakest Galactus herald) was able to casually detonate stars under the same writer and time period.

 

[The_Impress]

Could you elaborate?
I know Thor doesn't hit as hard on Earth or against Earthly foes but that's him pulling punches; not lessening his power passively unless he stopped playing around.

In practice it works like that tho, their durability being affected will not be apparent otherwise

Surfer might do because of the Power Cosmic

He does, yeah

but what about Beta Ray Bill? What about Hercules?

Same logic as Thor

Ok so open the pages and I can add a Note for you on the needed pages (do you want everyone or just the ones who we're keeping at 5-A?)

The ones with no variable tiers, yeah. Add the matchban and the "incorrect representation".

Then again you're proposing dropping High 6-C off Thor and co.'s file, right? That'll change the note ALOT

If you need people to apply revisions then make a thread calling for volunteers

I mean... this thread exists. I was planning on doing it alongside Doom revisions since I'll get all pages unlocked at once.

Even Nova (the weakest Galactus herald) was able to casually detonate stars under the same writer and time period.

Surfer is like, stated to be a SUPER pacifistic character though. Can you point me to the issue? If it's a serious Surfer it seems to be scaleable

 

[Antvasima]

Here:

Silver Surfer Vol 3 1

Featured Characters: ⏴ Silver Surfer (Norrin Radd) ⏵ (Main story and recap) Supporting Characters: Fantastic Four (Main story and recap) Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards) (Main story and recap) Invisible Woman (Sue Richards) (Main story and recap) Thing (Ben Grimm) ⏴ She-Hulk (Jennifer Walters) ⏵...

marvel.fandom.com

 

[Hellbeast]

In practice it works like that tho, their durability being affected will not be apparent otherwise

Again, it feels like a contrivance and it can lead to huge misconeptions
I just think advising not to scale characters to Thor and top tiers like him would be better

He does, yeah

Can I get a scan for that?

Same logic as Thor

I'm not an expert on Hercules but I can't recall him saying he holds back as much as Thor

The ones with no variable tiers, yeah. Add the matchban and the "incorrect representation".

Sweet, maybe something like

Note 1: Do not attempt to use the High 6-C Statistics for (insert name here) in Versus Threads

• They are intended solely for indexing purposes
• It can create misconceptions around their power

Then again you're proposing dropping High 6-C off Thor and co.'s file, right? That'll change the note ALOT

Note: Do not attempt to scale characters to Thor without sufficient evidence; he regularly holds back
(maybe bullet points for statements?)

I mean... this thread exists. I was planning on doing it alongside Doom revisions since I'll get all pages unlocked at once.

I'm referring more to getting experts together to discuss the revisions before putting them out there (like the Star Wars thread Asura runs)

 

[Confluctor]

Here:

Silver Surfer Vol 3 1

Featured Characters: ⏴ Silver Surfer (Norrin Radd) ⏵ (Main story and recap) Supporting Characters: Fantastic Four (Main story and recap) Mr. Fantastic (Reed Richards) (Main story and recap) Invisible Woman (Sue Richards) (Main story and recap) Thing (Ben Grimm) ⏴ She-Hulk (Jennifer Walters) ⏵...

marvel.fandom.com

I don't think it was a serious surfer. He overpowered the champion easily once he got a little serious

 

[The_Impress]

Again, it feels like a contrivance and it can lead to huge misconeptions
I just think advising not to scale characters to Thor and top tiers like him would be better

I think it leads to many characters being rendered featless. So I disagree.

Can I get a scan for that?

Here and here

I'm not an expert on Hercules but I can't recall him saying he holds back as much as Thor

He doesn't directly, he insinuates multiple times however he gets serious against opponents who are quite strong.

Sweet, maybe something like

Works

Note: Do not attempt to scale characters to Thor without sufficient evidence; he regularly holds back
(maybe bullet points for statements?)

We list the statement in Standard Tactics :v

I'm referring more to getting experts together to discuss the revisions before putting them out there (like the Star Wars thread Asura runs)

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-supporting-feats-for-5-a.120816/

Did that.

 

[Hellbeast]

I think it leads to many characters being rendered featless. So I disagree.

Pray Tell: who would be featless?
Also if characters have no feats for themselves (or at least any scaling that doesn't involve characters who they're magnitudes weaker then), they probably shouldn't have profiles
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/682850548508262420/760942083846176768/RCO023.jpg

He doesn't directly, he insinuates multiple times however he gets serious against opponents who are quite strong.

That definitely feels a bit cheap to me; we've got tons of character who aren't immediately serious unless their foes are strong enough and we don't list them as having such a huge variation in power.

I also have to question who we decide is "quite strong" considering characters like Ares don't seem to scale (his page is very bad0

We list the statement in Standard Tactics :v

I know; I'm saying maybe we could put the list here or note the list in the standard tactics

 

[The_Impress]

I think Silver Surfer is very blatantly overpowering Champion here, Champion gets a few hits in as Surfer informs him of his true might, and once he uses it, he clearly defeat him (Champion seems to only survive by Surfer's will here, considering he very well plans to interrogate him)

 

[The_Impress]

Pray Tell: who would be featless?

Keep the attitude in check. You'd be the first to complain otherwise.

Mostly folks who have specific attacks that harm Thor, like Nick Fury, Grey Gargoyle, Winter Soldier, and the like. There are also characters that have very few scalings otherwise, like Man-Thing.

Also if characters have no feats for themselves (or at least any scaling that doesn't involve characters who they're magnitudes weaker then), they probably shouldn't have profiles

Your opinion. Vehemently disagree with this.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/682850548508262420/760942083846176768/RCO023.jpg

?

That definitely feels a bit cheap to me; we've got tons of character who aren't immediately serious unless their foes are strong enough

Like?

and we don't list them as having such a huge variation in power.

We don't?

I also have to question who we decide is "quite strong" considering characters like Ares don't seem to scale (his page is very bad0

Because his page is very bad, yes. Likely when I was applying the revisions certain characters had garbage filemaking with "bro trust me" evidences.

You can work to fix it.

I know; I'm saying maybe we could put the list here or note the list in the standard tactics

Seems unnecessary.

 

[Teezar]

This'll make some characters completely featless tho :v

The one's who don't have can scale to the other characters they are consistently shown to be on par with or can keep up with them on a H2H. And I don't think any marvel character is featless.i

Then again you're proposing dropping High 6-C off Thor and co.'s file, right? That'll change the note ALOT

I was actually the one who did.

Again, it feels like a contrivance and it can lead to huge misconeptions
I just think advising not to scale characters to Thor and top tiers like him would be better

This also works.

Note: Do not attempt to scale characters to Thor without sufficient evidence; he regularly holds back
(maybe bullet points for statements?)

Works well, we shouldn't even scale characters to those who are shown to consistently hold back.

I think it leads to many characters being rendered featless. So I disagree.

Like which marvel characters to be precise?

Pray Tell: who would be featless?
Also if characters have no feats for themselves (or at least any scaling that doesn't involve characters who they're magnitudes weaker then), they probably shouldn't have profiles
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/682850548508262420/760942083846176768/RCO023.jpg

Precisely, it's weird comic book characters exist without feat or consistent scaling.

Mostly folks who have specific attacks that harm Thor, like Nick Fury, Grey Gargoyle, Winter Soldier, and the like. There are also characters that have very few scalings otherwise, like Man-Thing.

This characters have specific attacks that can harm Thor so we can scale via the attacks the could harm Thor or not consider them at all of it's not consistent and some might be via hax.