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Marvel Cosmology Downgrade

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I'm inclined to agree. I don't think it is explicitly wrong to interpret the Negative Zone as infinite-dimensional, but I think the evidence for it is somewhat unclear, and we have a body of work which portrays it as being as being a normal anti-matter universe. It's clear there is an element of subjectivity about what is to be done, and I think both sides have made their thoughts on the matter clear enough that we don't need to beat a dead horse.

The important question to ask now is: If we are to accept an infinite dimensional interpretation for this realm, who and what would we scale to that? And once that is answered, we should try to reach a consensus or majority vote on the matter so that we do not have to go in circles on the subject in perpetuity. I don't think either side of the Negative Zone discussion is arguing in bad faith, unlike some of the other subjects that have been brought up here, so we should be able to reach a satisfactory conclusion now. Perhaps it would be worth branching to another thread to discuss the subject since this one has become such a mess.
 
Gasper said:
I didn't want to anticipate in this thread much so i was just observing but I mostly agree with transcending and ultima here.
Hell, even in divine creator comics the universes are depicted as within dreams each transcending the previous.
Click to expand...
If you have scans, that can be discussed with regard to those comics, but as it pertains to the Silver Surfer run this is not the case. It was explicitly stated to not be the case in several different ways.

For instance. The only reason that Surfer ended up in the Macroverse was because the villains sent him there to prevent him from interfering in their plans, and sent Alicia to the Microverse for the same purpose.

If we were to accept this idea that these realms have an R>F relationship, then we're saying that the villain in this story literally sent the Silver Surfer to a higher dimension that views their own dimension as a dream, and that they sent Alicia to a deeper dream realm, and that these actions somehow involved sending their physical bodies to these deeper-dream/lesser-dream worlds, and that the dream hierarchy of these various realms can be traverse with run-of-the-mill space ships.

That is one of many issues with such an interpretation. We have direct scans from Surfer saying the Microverse is a small universe within his universe, and that the Macroverse contains his universe. The comic as a whole is very clear that the relationship between these realms is far closer to Russian nesting dolls than Inception-esque dream hierarchies.
 
Deagonx said:
I'm inclined to agree. I don't think it is explicitly wrong to interpret the Negative Zone as infinite-dimensional, but I think the evidence for it is somewhat unclear, and we have a body of work which portrays it as being as being a normal anti-matter universe. It's clear there is an element of subjectivity about what is to be done, and I think both sides have made their thoughts on the matter clear enough that we don't need to beat a dead horse.

The important question to ask now is: If we are to accept an infinite dimensional interpretation for this realm, who and what would we scale to that? And once that is answered, we should try to reach a consensus or majority vote on the matter so that we do not have to go in circles on the subject in perpetuity. I don't think either side of the Negative Zone discussion is arguing in bad faith, unlike some of the other subjects that have been brought up here, so we should be able to reach a satisfactory conclusion now. Perhaps it would be worth branching to another thread to discuss the subject since this one has become such a mess.
Click to expand...
Well, you can structure a new thread that links to all of the evidence that has been presented here, including by myself and LuciferX, if you wish.

However, I do consider it extremely shortsighted, irresponsible, and destructive for anybody to attempt to force through such a revision, given that ALL regular Marvel universes would automatically scale to it, and as such every single one of our current tier 2 Marvel Comics characters.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Page 9 already, eh.


As above. Controlling space itself, pretty much. In that context, Doom was, as said, linking control of the Negative Zone with absolute control over space that, added to mastery over time, would give him full domain over spacetime. I say this because obviously dimensions and space synonyms, when it comes to physical places


That specific scan, as said prior, only serves to prove that the "juncture of many dimensions" shown in Fantastic Four Unlimited was indeed the Crossroads of Infinity. My focus here is mainly on the scan from Fantastic Four #51, where Reed mentions "the world of limitless dimensions."

So to answer your question: Yes, I would say that. The relevant scene itself starts with Reed entering a 4-dimensional reality (And narrating that and every other detail, in old comicbook fashion), and then as he finally reaches the edge of Subspace, he reaches "the world of limitless dimensions." The continuity between both statements, as I see it, would indicate that the latter statement refers to spatial dimensions indeed, and this is supported by how in a later venture to the same Crossroads, he describes it as a "juncture of many dimensions" in a context tied to spatial dimensions (And by how control of the Negative Zone is directly equated to control over dimensionality, later on)

As said prior, I don't really think of the idea that the Crossroads intersect all realities as mutually exclusive with the idea that those scans are referring to spatial dimensions. To reiterate: Dimensionality is obviously a feature of the universes, and since the Crossroads are the single realm where all these universes meet, it naturally borrows from the dimensionality of each of them.

Also I don't quite understand what all this fuss about universes within universes is all about. I don't think it's realistic to suggest that "Macroverse" in the context of that specific Silver Surfer comic really refers to the realm introduced a while later. For the matter I don't get the "flowery language" argument that I've seen, either. For reference, here's a statement from the same run, where said universes are described as holograms folded inside of more holograms, with the character in question even referring to them as created by consciousness.
Click to expand...
Please reply me also can I see the scan of controlling dimensionality and I'd like to know the issues of some of these scans so I can read them myself and give my input.
Gasper said:


Click to expand...
I don't see any mention of Infinite/Endless hierarchy of dreams with each seeing the lesser one as merely dream, all I see is mostly about reality being a dream.
 
Gasper said:


Click to expand...
J.M. DeMatteis tends to do his own separate thing regarding cosmological scaling, if that is the author who wrote your scans.

Also, as I have mentioned previously, including in our official rules for Marvel and DC Comics, we need a high degree of consistency for scaling these characters and settings, given how insanely inconsistent they inherently are, Marvel Comics in particular.
 
Vasco said:
Please reply me also can I see the scan of controlling dimensionality and I'd like to know the issues of some of these scans so I can read them myself and give my input.

I don't see any mention of Infinite/Endless hierarchy of dreams with each seeing the lesser one as merely dream, all I see is mostly about reality being a dream.
Click to expand...




 
I posted a Negative Zone thread.


However, regarding these "Dream" scans, I also don't see anything indicating a dream hierarchy. I don't know the comic or the context, but it seems to me that it's just saying all of reality is God's dream, which would only be supportive of God's R>F transcendence, not anyone elses.
 
Deagonx said:
I posted a Negative Zone thread.


However, regarding these "Dream" scans, I also don't see anything indicating a dream hierarchy. I don't know the comic or the context, but it seems to me that it's just saying all of reality is God's dream, which would only be supportive of God's R>F transcendence, not anyone elses.
Click to expand...
No, there is also a scan saying galactus is just a dream to creator and that there are "endless dreams" or something like that, i just need to find the scan.
 
Gasper said:
No, there is also a scan saying galactus is just a dream to creator and that there are "endless dreams" or something like that, i just need to find the scan.
Click to expand...
Endless dreams wouldn't necessarily mean a hierarchy, though.
 
Gasper said:
What? If galactus is a dream to creator and creator is a dream to lords of Shambhala, how isn't this a hierarchy?
Click to expand...
That's not what I said, and to be clear, this is the first time you've referenced "lords of Shambhala." Which scan is the creator described as a dream to the lords of shambhala?

Also, what comics are these scans from?
 
Gasper said:





Click to expand...
Still no infinite hierarchy of dreams transcending one another just saying reality is merely a dream something that's common for most verses supreme beings
Gasper said:
What? If galactus is a dream to creator and creator is a dream to lords of Shambhala, how isn't this a hierarchy?
Click to expand...
Can I see the scan?
 
Antvasima said:
J.M. DeMatteis tends to do his own separate thing regarding cosmological scaling, if that is the author who wrote your scans.
Click to expand...
That may be true for other verses, but not in this regard.
If we are going to disqualify inconsistency it is by comparing them from comic to comic, sentence to sentence, if there is a disconnection we will dismiss it, but we can't go down that road where it is not officially said that he does separate, when it is said that he fits the pieces of his story into the rest of the Marvel universe.
 
Alonik said:
If we are going to disqualify inconsistency it is by comparing them from comic to comic, sentence to sentence, if there is a disconnection we will dismiss it,
Click to expand...
Well, there is. One of the points of contention in the thread is that the Microverse was retconned as being a parallel reality that is accessed by shrinking past the point of planck length. However, in the Surfer run you mention, he explicitly describes the Microverse as being within the main universe, and describes it as a "Micro universe" suggesting that he was either unfamiliar with or ignored the concept of the Microverse being parallel.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, there is. One of the points of contention in the thread is that the Microverse was retconned as being a parallel reality that is accessed by shrinking past the point of planck length. However, in the Surfer run you mention, he explicitly describes the Microverse as being within the main universe, and describes it as a "Micro universe" suggesting that he was either unfamiliar with or ignored the concept of the Microverse being parallel.
Click to expand...
Yes, I understand that argument of yours. But I still would argue that it is a world idea that has gone outside the planck size, because even in the comic that it is interpreted that the microverse is inside the universe is just by the fact that they have to go sub-atomic, and that makes them understand that it is inside the universe.

I knew this would be debatable, but this was totally derailed, and I wanted to talk about this after the subject of the Multiverse High 1-B, so that we don't mix up the topics.
 
Deagonx said:
That's not what I said, and to be clear, this is the first time you've referenced "lords of Shambhala." Which scan is the creator described as a dream to the lords of shambhala?

Also, what comics are these scans from?
Click to expand...
For galactus scan

And for lords of Shambhala dreaming creator... i was wrong, it was job burke who dreamed everything below him.in the scan i already posted above.

Amazon product ASIN 0871351668
 
Deagonx said:
I can see that, I'm just not sure how to tier it. In this context, given the ongoing discussions about infinite dimensions in the negative zone, do you feel that this power would be Tier 1?
Click to expand...
I would, yes. Although I consider it to be less relevant as a proposed feat and more as something demonstrating that spatial dimensions are a relevant concept that connects with the Negative Zone.

Deagonx said:
So the "holograms" thing is pertaining to a different concept entirely. In that portion of the run, Silver Surfer is literally hooked up to a device that has him trapped in deep layers of mind-universes. What we're discussing is about Sama-D's statement in the Macroverse, which is not part of the dream universes Silver Surfer was trapped in. Sama describes the relationship between the Macroverse, Universe, and Microverse as being dreams within dreams, but we know this isn't literal because they use space ships to travel between these realms, and the microverse explicitly described as being a micro-universe within the universe.
Click to expand...
They are the same concept. Soma-D's diatribes, in that comic, are supposed to tie into this, where Tenebrae (The green woman there) states that thoughts create secondary realities contained within primary ones, no less tangible than the world from which they emerged and functionally "real" from an internal perspective, hence she also states in the scan I've posted that there are "as many worlds as there are thoughts," and speaks of them in the same terms as Soma-D does ("Dreams within dreams). Ships do travel to and from the different layers (More specifically from the Microverse and into the Equiverse), yes, but it's always by breaking through dimensional barriers, and not physically, as seen here.

Although something that I ought to retract is my above statement that the Microverse from that story is not necessarily the Microversw introduced in later comics. I was wrong: It is, given the appearances of Sub-Atomica and the Psycho Man shown above. It may throw the validity of the above scans into question, given a few other accounts (One from 1985, in Secret Wars II, and another from 2019) stating that Sub-Atomica is a parallel universe that just so happens to be accessed from shrinking out of reality. But I believe that we currently accept all cosmologies to be "canon" to the verse, in that they are all contained in the House of Ideas and switched around by TOAA (As the author stand-in), so, not too sure how it pans out ultimately.

Deagonx said:
I recognize the possibility of it, but I have to say my personal assessment is that it's a bit generous. If I had to vote, my vote would be no, but I am not staff so my view on the matter is somewhat moot. I defer to what the staff ends up agreeing upon.
Click to expand...
Noted.
 
Alonik said:
But I still would argue that it is a world idea that has gone outside the planck size, because even in the comic that it is interpreted that the microverse is inside the universe is just by the fact that they have to go sub-atomic, and that makes them understand that it is inside the universe.
Click to expand...
It's a bit more complicated than that. The explanation given was that going past planck size literally teleports you outside of space time. It's not actually inside.



"The term Microverse is a misnomer. Things aren't tiny in Sub-Atomica. It's a dimension you enter by shrinking out of this one, but you don't shrink into it. You're actually shunted out of space into a parallel dimension."

Shrinking facilitates teleportation out of space into a parallel dimension, but the Microverse in the modern understanding isn't small and it isn't contained in normal universes, though that was the initial way it was written.
 
Alonik said:
I knew this would be debatable, but this was totally derailed, and I wanted to talk about this after the subject of the Multiverse High 1-B, so that we don't mix up the topics.
Click to expand...
I second this, also. I find it pretty damn annoying that this was derailed into Macroverse/Microverse discussion before the due time.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I would, yes. Although I consider it to be less relevant as a proposed feat and more as something demonstrating that spatial dimensions are a relevant concept that connects with the Negative Zone.


Noted.
Click to expand...
As far as the Negative Zone is concerned, can you look here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-negative-zone.148550/#post-5435759

Ultima_Reality said:
They are the same concept. Soma-D's diatribes, in that comic, are supposed to tie into this, where Tenebrae (The green woman there) states that thoughts create secondary realities contained within primary ones, no less tangible than the world from which they emerged and functionally "real" from an internal perspective, hence she also states in the scan I've posted that there are "as many worlds as there are thoughts," and speaks of them in the same terms as Soma-D does ("Dreams within dreams). Ships do travel to and from the different layers (More specifically from the Microverse and into the Equiverse), yes, but it's always by breaking through dimensional barriers, and not physically, as seen here.

Although something that I ought to retract is my above statement that the Microverse from that story is not necessarily the Microversw introduced in later comics. I was wrong: It is, given the appearances of Sub-Atomica and the Psycho Man shown above. It may throw the validity of the above scans into question, given a few other accounts (One from 1985, in Secret Wars II, and another from 2019) stating that Sub-Atomica is a parallel universe that just so happens to be accessed from shrinking out of reality. But I believe that we currently accept all cosmologies to be "canon" to the verse, in that they are all contained in the House of Ideas and switched around by TOAA (As the author stand-in), so, not too sure how it pans out ultimately.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is the same concept, because Surfer tells us it's not. When Tenebrae realizes that Surfer can't be contained in the machine, because no matter what reality they subject him to he always becomes the Surfer, realizes he's in a dream, and "wakes up" he is shunted to the Macroverse where he states that while he doesn't know where he is, the one thing he is sure of is that it isn't a dream.

I think that given the fact that in this run the Microverse is explicitly described as a small universe within the main universe, and that the Macroverse is the opposite of this, it's best to just interpret it in a "normal" way rather than an R>F way. They use space ships to travel between these realms, and it beggars belief in the context that we are meant to interpret this as the characters acheiving R>F transcendence and descendance so casually, and the language used in the comic doesn't seem to support that. Surfer regards Sama-D as a madman, so I think it's most accurate to interpret the dream language as figureative rather than literal.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I would, yes. Although I consider it to be less relevant as a proposed feat and more as something demonstrating that spatial dimensions are a relevant concept that connects with the Negative Zone.
Click to expand...
I hope that you are willing to reconsider in this regard, given all of the resulting problems that I brought up in Deagonx's Negative Zone discussion thread.
Ultima_Reality said:
Although something that I ought to retract is my above statement that the Microverse from that story is not necessarily the Microversw introduced in later comics. I was wrong: It is, given the appearances of Sub-Atomica and the Psycho Man shown above. It may throw the validity of the above scans into question, given a few other accounts (One from 1985, in Secret Wars II, and another from 2019) stating that Sub-Atomica is a parallel universe that just so happens to be accessed from shrinking out of reality. But I believe that we currently accept all cosmologies to be "canon" to the verse, in that they are all contained in the House of Ideas and switched around by TOAA (As the author stand-in), so, not too sure how it pans out ultimately.
Click to expand...
Thank you for trying to be reasonable. If we consider The House of Ideas to constantly rewrite the Marvel Comics cosmology, rather than stacking all interpretations on top of each other, that would be far easier for me to work with.

Given the absolutely massive number of intended unreasonable Marvel Comics upgrade threads that I have had to deal with for the past 8.5 years, and my otherwise overworked stress levels in general, it is almost hair-tearingly frustrating for me to deal with them nowadays.
 
Gasper said:
For galactus scan

And for lords of Shambhala dreaming creator... i was wrong, it was job burke who dreamed everything below him.in the scan i already posted above.

Amazon product ASIN 0871351668
Click to expand...
I mean it's already stated reality is merely a dream to god.
Ultima_Reality said:
They are the same concept. Soma-D's diatribes, in that comic, are supposed to tie into this, where Tenebrae (The green woman there) states that thoughts create secondary realities contained within primary ones, no less tangible than the world from which they emerged and functionally "real" from an internal perspective, hence she also states in the scan I've posted that there are "as many worlds as there are thoughts," and speaks of them in the same terms as Soma-D does ("Dreams within dreams). Ships do travel to and from the different layers (More specifically from the Microverse and into the Equiverse), yes, but it's always by breaking through dimensional barriers, and not physically, as seen here.
Click to expand...
I didn't see where it was stated in the scan,
Ultima_Reality said:
("Dreams within dreams).
Click to expand...
His self awareness is growing, the time coming when he will know everything, dreams within dreams can no longer contain him, we must seek another way.

i fail to see how this is talking about an infinite hierarchy of dreams transcending one another.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you, but we already reached a common staff conclusion regarding universal sizes in a previous content revision thread, so I would greatly appreciate if you do not bring up that issue again.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Marvel_Comics?so=search#The_Size_of_the_Marvel_Universe

If this is going to become a problem, we will need to instate a discussion rule.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I don't follow. I didn't bring up a particular topic. I just said that I would start cataloging the scans relevant to this thread.
 
Okay. My apologies then. I would rather just that you avoid bringing up the arguing about Marvel universes having no finite borders again, as we already settled that issue.
 
Vasco said:
When ever I mention Microverse I meant Surfer scan but when I mention Worlds(planets) I mean Dormammu scan.

Also it doesn't matter really Worlds within worlds even if in context of universes with universes don't necessarily grant Tier 1.
Click to expand...
In that case, my point stands. the only difference is that you tried to apply a 1968 scan to a 1998 scan instead of 2005. "Worlds within worlds" cannot be referring to planets, as proven by @Beyond_transcending.

While it doesn't necessarily grant Tier 1, in this case it does since Sama-D said a lower universe is a thought/dream to a larger universe. He also said Ad infinitum which means the qualitative superiorities extend to infinite universes. That's clear High 1-B.
 
Transcending said:
In that case, my point stands. the only difference is that you tried to apply a 1968 scan to a 1998 scan instead of 2005. "Worlds within worlds" cannot be referring to planets, as proven by @Beyond_transcending.
Click to expand...
How does it? The scan I applied is the scan Silver Surfer personally experienced.

Worlds within worlds can and @Beyond_transcending didn't prove shit, I only said even if it refers to universes it wouldn't still be tier 1 and pointless to even bring up in the first place.
 
Deagonx said:
Yes he does. Sama-D is the character Surfer meets upon entering the Macroverse, and it is Sama-D who explains the concept to Surfer. He says "This particular universe contains your universe." This is the equiverse. The equiverse, as we know, is Surfer's universe and it contains the Microverse. Thus, the Macroverse contains the Equiverse which contains the Microverse. Other scans from this run clearly indicate that this relationship is the same across these three realms, and further indicate that it isn't dream like at all.
Click to expand...
The equiverse does not contain the Microverse however, as it is a parallel universe. While Surfer said once the Microverse existed within his universe, that was already addressed by both me and BT-
Beyond_transcending said:
You understand how Silver Surfer understood Sama-D is not relevant to what Sama-D means right? We know from our knowledge that the Microverse is a parallel universe, so we can better understand what Sama-D meant.
Click to expand...
I already linked you where I addressed it, and you addressed it so I will counter that.
Deagonx said:
If it were pertinent to interpreting something, then yes. Even if we agreed to rewrite this comic in the context of what other comics have said about the Microverse, that still wouldn't result in us choosing to take the dream statement literally. At best, we would just reinterpret the Macroverse as being a parallel reality, not a hierarchical greater world that contains the Equiverse the way that the Equiverse contains the Microverse.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on your "If it were pertinent to interpreting something, then yes."? Like give an example where you would use the "old" origin?

Why would the Microverse being parallel equal to the Macroverse being parallel?
Deagonx said:
Surfer literally calls the Microverse a "Microuniverse."
Click to expand...
Exactly, a "microuniverse", not a total universe. And again, the Microverse is parallel, not something that exists within the equiverse.
Deagonx said:
Sure: The writers didn't care. These aren't changes that happened in the actual fictional world. Trying to imagine this as a series of cosmological changes that happened in real time like a DC Crisis event is a red herring. That's not what happened. Authors just ignored or did not know about the previous writings about it. DeMatteis clearly thought the Microverse was a tiny universe within the main universe, and wrote the Macroverse as the opposite of that, a larger universe that contains the Equiverse.
Click to expand...
That's not an in-universe reason. I never said it's a series where cosmological changes happened like DC's crises, but retcons clearly exist, and when a newer comic contradicts an older one, the older one gets retconned and its story gets changed accordingly to fit the new canon. That's how a coherent timeline is made, you are admitting you cannot produce a straight coherent timeline and instead is trying to produce an incoherent timeline and apply retconned things to support your argument.

@Antvasima says he's all about reliability, but applying retconned things to profiles is the exact opposite of that.
 
Vasco said:
How does it? The scan I applied is the scan Silver Surfer personally experienced.
Click to expand...
Deagonx said:
I genuinely chuckled at the question. Writers won't even use a term the same way within the same comic sometimes. Expecting perfect continuity in a generic phrase by two different writers is just insane.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Yes. There have been many hundreds of writers who mostly completely do their own things while ignoring everybody else over a timespan of roughly 84 years by now.
Click to expand...
Antvasima and Deagonx have clarified the writers are what matters, and not the character.
 
Transcending said:
Antvasima and Deagonx have clarified the writers are what matters, and not the character.
Click to expand...
I stated that Marvel Comics is arguably the most insanely inconsistent major fictional setting in existence, or at least the one that I am aware of, and as such our rules for it even clarify that we need a lot of consistency for revising it, and our general wiki standards are that extraordinary claims (which includes very extreme upgrades) also require extraordinary (very explicit and self-evident) evidence.

As such, you need to take both of those issues into account for reliable Marvel Comics scaling, not rely on one or a few diffuse statements that require personal speculation and interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Transcending said:
The equiverse does not contain the Microverse however, as it is a parallel universe. While Surfer said once the Microverse existed within his universe, that was already addressed by both me and BT-
Click to expand...
The Microverse was explicitly stated to be contained within the Equiverse in this run, so thats how it will be interpreted for this comic. Nothing can change that.
 
Antvasima said:
I stated that Marvel Comics is arguably the most insanely inconsistent major fictional setting in existence, or at least the one that I am aware of, and as such our rules for it even clarify that we need a lot of consistency for revising it, and our general wiki standards are that extraordinary claims (which includes very extreme upgrades) also require extraordinary (very explicit and self-evident) evidence.

As such, you need to take both of those issues into account for reliable Marvel Comics scaling, not rely on one or a few diffuse statements that require personal speculation and interpretation.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
I stated that Marvel Comics is arguably the most insanely inconsistent major fictional setting in existence, or at least the one that I am aware of, and as such our rules for it even clarify that we need a lot of consistency for revising it, and our general wiki standards are that extraordinary claims (which includes very extreme upgrades) also require extraordinary (very explicit and self-evident) evidence.

As such, you need to take both of those issues into account for reliable Marvel Comics scaling, not rely on one or a few diffuse statements that require personal speculation and interpretation.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you posted this, and I don't know how this counters my point in any way. You said "yes" to Deagonx clearly, and agreed with him-
Antvasima said:
Yes
Click to expand...
And this was to a reply where Deagon said using
Deagonx said:
I genuinely chuckled at the question. Writers won't even use a term the same way within the same comic sometimes. Expecting perfect continuity in a generic phrase by two different writers is just insane.
Click to expand...
You pretty clearly said that saying comics written by different writers that have the same term means they used the same meaning of the term is insane.

This is what the opposition did, equated a term from a scan from 1968 written by Stan Lee to a scan from 1998 written by DeMatteis. That's a difference of over 3 decades.
 
Deagonx said:
The Microverse was explicitly stated to be contained within the Equiverse in this run, so thats how it will be interpreted for this comic. Nothing can change that.
Click to expand...
This is Ad Nauseam, please read my entire post, rather than cherry-picking a part of it-
Transcending said:
The equiverse does not contain the Microverse however, as it is a parallel universe. While Surfer said once the Microverse existed within his universe, that was already addressed by both me and BT-

I already linked you where I addressed it, and you addressed it so I will counter that.

Can you elaborate on your "If it were pertinent to interpreting something, then yes."? Like give an example where you would use the "old" origin?

Why would the Microverse being parallel equal to the Macroverse being parallel?

Exactly, a "microuniverse", not a total universe. And again, the Microverse is parallel, not something that exists within the equiverse.

That's not an in-universe reason. I never said it's a series where cosmological changes happened like DC's crises, but retcons clearly exist, and when a newer comic contradicts an older one, the older one gets retconned and its story gets changed accordingly to fit the new canon. That's how a coherent timeline is made, you are admitting you cannot produce a straight coherent timeline and instead is trying to produce an incoherent timeline and apply retconned things to support your argument.

@Antvasima says he's all about reliability, but applying retconned things to profiles is the exact opposite of that.
Click to expand...
You missed the Mandrakk point, the retcon point, and numerous others
 
Transcending said:
This is Ad Nauseam, please read my entire post, rather than cherry-picking a part of it
Click to expand...
I'm not going to stop saying a true thing simply because you think you've rebutted it.

I'll say it again. Surfer directly states that the Microverse is a small universe that is contained within the Equiverse, which means it is not a parallel universe in that comic. You mentioning that other comics write it differently does not change how we interpret the information in the run.
 
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