Marvel Cosmology Downgrade

[LuciferX]

Not exactly I said. I said the Microverse exists parallel to the equiverse, "normal" universes other than the Microverse do exists layered. There are other parallel universes too of course, but also layered ones.

How do we know dream hierarchy goes upward from three dimensional world? those universes could exist in a lower layer as dreams from three dimensional world.

 

[Transcending]

How do we know dream hierarchy goes upward from three dimensional world? those universes could exist in a lower layer as dreams from three dimensional world.

Below 3D can only exist 2D, 1D, and 0D, certainly not infinite.

 

[LuciferX]

Below 3D can only exist 2D, 1D, and 0D, certainly not infinite.

VSBW FAQ:

However, this is not the case for every setting. In certain situations, we would not grant a R>F Transcendence to those who exist in the 'real world' compared to the game. Whether we do or not, it has to do with the perspective of the story.

For example, if you take a fictional world/virtual reality exists below baseline reality, it doesn't count as r>f transcendence. and does that mean fictional world is 2D or 1D? No. A lower layer doesn't neccesarily need to equate to a geomatric dimension.

 

[Vasco]

In fact, if I'm just going to do something like scientific dream interpretation, I can make a sampling. As in the movie "inception", dreams are layered. The bottom layer does not affect the top layer. A single top layer spoils all the bottom layer under it. So, like dream sampling, layered superiority can be found, in short, an endless layered transition.

I understand what you mean but the scan said dreams folded inside dreams which is vague.

I don't see how it is. It literally means dreams are folded inside larger dreams, and these are universes. It's explicitly stating each universe is viewed as a dream by a larger universe, and that larger universe itself is a dream to an even larger universe. It's a very blatant scan.

It never said larger dreams first off all just dreams folded inside dreams.

Except it isn't blatantly since Silver Surfer himself referenced the Worlds within worlds phenomenon he experienced and used it to understand what sama-D said.

The issue with that scan is that it's ancient(I believe around 1968) and came before it was revealed universes cannot exist within atoms(that is, when the misconception was prevalent)

It doesn't matter if it's ancient since that's the scan Silver Surfer referenced we know about.

So Dormammu couldn't have been referring to the Microverse(also the fact he said "worlds within worlds" and not "a world within a world"). The Microverse being parallel is not debatable.

I'm talking about the sama-D scan not Dormammu, can I see the Dormammu scan.

Just so you know Worlds within Worlds don't prove transcendence e.g Worlds within worlds can still be worlds(planets) inside worlds(universes) not necessarily universes within universes and even that isn't transcendence, we have verses currently on the wiki with universes within universes and it doesn't enter tier 1.

Not just that, but before Dormammu said that, it was revealed that the Microverse existed outside the entire Multiverse, and it explicitly mentions the Microverse being different from the equiverse-

This doesn't matter since Silver Surfer himself referenced the Worlds within worlds phenomenon he experienced, it doesn't matter if it's been retconned later on but Silver Surfer talked about the scan I sent.

 

[Transcending]

For example, if you take a fictional world/virtual reality exists below baseline reality, it doesn't count as r>f transcendence. and does that mean fictional world is 2D or 1D? No. A lower layer doesn't neccesarily need to equate to a geomatric dimension.

Can you link me that part of the FAQ? Because I couldn't find it.

Either way, the quote you pulled up is specifically referring to how someone sees a game rather than a dream/thought. So that doesn't apply here.

Moreover it's not a necessity to have more dimensions when you have a qualitative superiority, check this part of the FAQ- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ#:~:text=The most standard,a similar scale.

It specifically states how a dimensional difference is just one way to have a qualitative superiority and differentiates R>f from it. We also have DontTalkDT who differentiated them- https://vsbattles.com/threads/can-y...h to do with dimensional numbers.,-If, on the

This is also why even after the inverse dimensions of a verse ends, you can go higher in the Tiering System.

 

[LuciferX]

Can you link me that part of the FAQ? Because I couldn't find it

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...

vsbattles.fandom.com

(Not from FAQ page tho.)

.Either way, the quote you pulled up is specifically referring to how someone sees a game rather than a dream/thought. So that doesn't apply here.

Basically the same.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

It specifically states how a dimensional difference is just one way to have a qualitative superiority and differentiates R>f from it. We also have DontTalkDT who differentiated them- https://vsbattles.com/threads/can-you-generalize-dimensional-superiority.142010/#:~:text=dimensions, then no.-,You mentioned reality-fiction for instance. That reason does not have much to do with dimensional numbers.

Ofc but it doesn't prove r>f if whole hierarchy exist below 3D world

 

[Deagonx]

It does not matter what other authors wrote about the Microverse. In the actual Silver Surfer comic in question, the Microverse is explicitly referred to as a "micro universe" existing within the main universe and isn't a parallel reality. This was already proven, so why are you trying to mislead everyone?

Another entire page of arguing for something that has been definitively debunked, based on a notion that was directly disproven within the comic. There is no R>F transcendence here, no dreams.

They literally travel from the Microverse to the Macroverse in a space ship. I guess it was a dream traveling space ship!

 

[Beyond_transcending]

I understand what you mean but the scan said dreams folded inside dreams which is vague.

It never said larger dreams first off all just dreams folded inside dreams.

Except it isn't blatantly since Silver Surfer himself referenced the Worlds within worlds phenomenon he experienced and used it to understand what sama-D said.

You understand how Silver Surfer understood Sama-D is not relevant to what Sama-D means right? We know from our knowledge that the Microverse is a parallel universe, so we can better understand what Sama-D meant.

It doesn't matter if it's ancient since that's the scan Silver Surfer referenced we know about.

I'm talking about the sama-D scan not Dormammu, can I see the Dormammu scan.

Just so you know Worlds within Worlds don't prove transcendence e.g Worlds within worlds can still be worlds(planets) inside worlds(universes) not necessarily universes within universes and even that isn't transcendence, we have verses currently on the wiki with universes within universes and it doesn't enter tier 1.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they change the term's meaning in the same phrase? That would just confuse everyone for no reason. In Dormammu's case, it's very explicit, he just beat Multi-Eternity and got inside him, and the first thing that impresses him is planets existing inside universes? Something very standard? There's also the fact the other two things Dormammu mentioned are "dimensions folding unto themselves" and "universes being born and collapsing into ruin". Both these things are references to universes.

 

[Deagonx]

We know from our knowledge that the Microverse is a parallel universe

No it isn't. It's a small universe within the equiverse. It may have been written differently in other comics, but not in this run.

Why would they change the term's meaning in the same phrase? That would just confuse everyone for no reason

Welcome to comic books.

How Dormammu used a phrase "worlds within worlds" doesn't dictate that another character in a different comic by a different writer is using it in an identical way.

 

[Antvasima]

No it isn't. It's a small universe within the equiverse. It may have been written differently in other comics, but not in this run.

Strongly agreed.

Welcome to comic books.

How Dormammu used a phrase "worlds within worlds" doesn't dictate that another character in a different comic by a different writer is using it in an identical way.

Exactly. I have been trying to make other members understand the fundamental nature of shared superhero settings for many years now.

 

[Deagonx]

I have been trying to make other members understand the fundamental nature of shared superhero settings for many years now.

I genuinely chuckled at the question. Writers won't even use a term the same way within the same comic sometimes. Expecting perfect continuity in a generic phrase by two different writers is just insane.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. There have been many hundreds of writers who mostly completely do their own things while ignoring everybody else over a timespan of roughly 84 years by now.

Jim Shooter tried to keep the stories reasonably coherent when he was the boss of Marvel Comics' editorial department, and Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, and Tom DeFalco at least made valiant attempts, but except for that it has been nearly completely dadaistic chaos in sum total.

As I mentioned earlier, it is possible for a biased person who wants a specific end result to squeeze virtually any tier out of virtually any character because of this, by selecting offhanded mentions in disconnected scans gathered across the over 100,000 stories, which is why I would extremely greatly appreciate if some members who value accuracy far more than bias (downwards or upwards) are willing to genuinely try to find the most coherent and consistent power level patterns that we have available instead, which can then be applied. Feel free to contact myself and Eficiente if you are interested in helping out, and are serious about being matter of fact rational and reasonable regarding the project.

 

[Deagonx]

As I mentioned earlier, it is possible for a biased person who wants a specific end result to squeeze virtually any tier out of virtually any character because of this, by selecting offhanded mentions in disconnected scans gathered across the over 100,000 stories.

In this case, the scan proving how the Microverse was written in the pertinent run was literally posted, and they still started up another argument based on how it was written in other runs, for the sole purpose of trying to add R>F transcendence where it clearly doesn't exist, based on a single phrase from a one off character in the 80s. If someone doesn't scrutinize all of these scans, people like that are going to sneak in huge undeserved upgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I am extremely disappointed in all members who are actively causing our wiki to turn far less reliable through such behaviour, and ask all staff members to make a continuous effort to severely scrutinize and put a stop to such attempts, as they are not living up to their responsibilities otherwise.

 

[Vasco]

You understand how Silver Surfer understood Sama-D is not relevant to what Sama-D means right? We know from our knowledge that the Microverse is a parallel universe, so we can better understand what Sama-D meant.

That's the closest way to understand him that's why silver surfer uses the analogy of him being there himself to understand what sama-D said, if not everyone else is saying another thing about dreams, folded inside dreams. But the silver surfer himself didn’t mention the Microverse as a parallel dimension but a sub-atomic dimension he personally experienced. And parallel dimensions don't make sense with Sama-D statement of dreams, folded inside dreams.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they change the term's meaning in the same phrase? That would just confuse everyone for no reason. In Dormammu's case, it's very explicit, he just beat Multi-Eternity and got inside him, and the first thing that impresses him is planets existing inside universes? Something very standard? There's also the fact the other two things Dormammu mentioned are "dimensions folding unto themselves" and "universes being born and collapsing into ruin". Both these things are references to universes

Silver surfer sees Microverse as a sub-atomic universe which he referenced in that book, it being parallel dimension later on is irrelevant if his talking about the sub-atomic reality he personally experienced, Silver Surfer never called it a parallel dimension or saw it that way but a sub-atomic universe he personally experienced. on to Dormammu's case, I mean look at the scan, Dormammu went in this Order in his speech on Worlds within worlds, He first started with Worlds then dimensions then universes so him saying Worlds in context of planets makes sense and even if it didn't not High 1-B since we have verses with Universes within themselves and get 2-C,2-B and 2-A so not necessarily High 1-B if you can't prove it being in context of Tier 1.

 

[Transcending]

Basically the same.

No? If it was something general they would have generalized it instead of specifically mentioning game.

Ofc but it doesn't prove r>f if whole hierarchy exist below 3D world

Elaborate please? And R>f was explicit, if it cannot exist below then it exists above, which would align with scans from Sorcerer Supreme.

 

[Transcending]

Yes. There have been many hundreds of writers who mostly completely do their own things while ignoring everybody else over a timespan of roughly 84 years by now.

You do realize this argument supports us? The opposition was using a scan from 1968 and applying it to the Dormammu scan from 2005. Not us.

 

[Vasco]

You do realize this argument supports us? The opposition was using a scan from 1968 and applying it to the Dormammu scan from 2005. Not us.

Except I never used the worlds within worlds phenomenon Silver Surfer personally experienced for Dormammu scan, I used it for the sama-D scan which silver surfer himself said he had personal experience with, which I brought the scan he was talking about.

 

[Transcending]

It does not matter what other authors wrote about the Microverse. In the actual Silver Surfer comic in question, the Microverse is explicitly referred to as a "micro universe" existing within the main universe and isn't a parallel reality. This was already proven, so why are you trying to mislead everyone?

No it isn't. It's a small universe within the equiverse. It may have been written differently in other comics, but not in this run.

I am not misleading anyone, you are just committing Ad Nauseam. I already addressed this here-

The second scan does imply the Microverse exists within the main universe, but this again doesn't prove that Sama-D was referring to the Microverse. In fact, Sama-D was pretty much referring to all universes, not just one or two, and we know Marvel isn't limited to worlds-within-worlds, it has parallel realities(worlds-besides-worlds). So it cannot be referring to the Microverse, a realm that exists inside just the main universe. I also fail to see how a universe can't contain universes within its atoms and simultaneously view some others as dreams.

But more than all of this, there's a very vital point, and that's the fact Marvel currently uses a composite cosmology. Deagon himself has stated before that Mandrakk's origin in Final Crisis was retconned in the Metal era. But when FC was written, Mandrakk had his old origin. Would you use that origin when discussing FC stuff or his "new" origin, Deagon? I am fairly certain that you would say you would use his newer origin, and you already have, in the past. Similarly, even if the comic did consider the Microverse to be a universe within the main universe, that wouldn't align with how it's currently supposed to be. The Microverse was parallel, then became something that exists within the main universe, and then somehow became parallel again? These are undeniable contradictions. The correct thing to do would be to use what the Microverse is currently referred to as(parallel), to apply that onto the old comic, and change how the comic worked out accordingly. That's how things work, as Ultima said, newer stuff overrides old. Deagon himself used similar logic in the Lucifer downgrade thread, no reason why it wouldn't apply here.

So the Microverse does exist as a parallel reality, but even if it wasn't, my argument stands and Deagon has failed to address the vital questions.

Repeat your arguments AFTER responding to my counters.

 

[Transcending]

Except I never used the worlds within worlds phenomenon Silver Surfer personally experienced for Dormammu scan.

It could but marvel talks about it as the Microverse, Worlds withing worlds can also mean within each universe exists multiple worlds(planets), even the solar system alone is has several worlds.

 

[Antvasima]

You do realize this argument supports us? The opposition was using a scan from 1968 and applying it to the Dormammu scan from 2005. Not us.

You seem to be arguing for different ways to apply absolutely outrageously exaggerated scaling for individual universes that is not remotely consistently supported by the history of the setting as a whole, much less officially endorsed and mandated by any era of Marvel's editorial department.

 

[Transcending]

You seem to be arguing for different ways to apply absolutely outrageously exaggerated scaling for individual universes that is not remotely consistently supported by the history of the setting as a whole, much less officially endorsed and mandated by any era of Marvel's editorial department.

What? I am not arguing in different ways, I am using a singular argument. You have been misleaded my Deagon to think I am arguing in different ways.

 

[Vasco]

@Transcending You can clearly see a comma, one half referring to the Silver Surfer scan and the other Dormammu.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that you supported both a multiversal nexus somehow scaling to the universes that it intersects with, as well as a form of comparative dreams within dreams hierarchy that goes against our wiki rules for using the main setting as a basis to avoid tier 1 civilians.

 

[Deagonx]

Repeat your arguments AFTER responding to my counters.

Your "counters" are not pertinent. We know that Sama-D's description was explaining the relationship between the "macroverse" "equiverse" and "microverse" and we know what this relationship looks like in the context of this comic. We know that the relationship between the equiverse and macroverse is the same as between the microverse and equiverse, which means that this "dream" language is figurative.

The fact that Marvel's cosmology is composite does not mean we can take things out of its original context. We will not reinterpret Silver Surfer with a version of the microverse written in different comics just so we can take this "dream" language literally when it clearly was not.

 

[Transcending]

@Transcending You can clearly see a comma, one half referring to the Silver Surfer scan and the other Dormammu.

Can you clarify which half was referring to which scan?

 

[Transcending]

I thought that you supported both a multiversal nexus somehOw scaling to the universes that it intersects with

Neither of us mentioned that argument

as well as a form of comparative dreams within dreams hierarchy that goes against our wiki rules for using the main setting as a basis to avoid tier 1 civilians.

We did use this argument, but only this. However, I don't understand how it proves tier 1 civilians?

 

[Ego]

Oh come on
Marvel and DC are getting downgrades?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Page 9 already, eh.

I see your point, but how would you characterize the concept of "controlling dimensionality" in this context?

As above. Controlling space itself, pretty much. In that context, Doom was, as said, linking control of the Negative Zone with absolute control over space that, added to mastery over time, would give him full domain over spacetime. I say this because obviously dimensions and space synonyms, when it comes to physical places

I think these scans are very important in confirming that the crossroads are in the negative zone, but what I am reading still suggests to me that the limitless dimensions are realms: "A blackhole that contains a gateway to other dimension."

In your opinion, do you think the crossroads represent a space/realm of infinite spatial dimensions?

That specific scan, as said prior, only serves to prove that the "juncture of many dimensions" shown in Fantastic Four Unlimited was indeed the Crossroads of Infinity. My focus here is mainly on the scan from Fantastic Four #51, where Reed mentions "the world of limitless dimensions."

So to answer your question: Yes, I would say that. The relevant scene itself starts with Reed entering a 4-dimensional reality (And narrating that and every other detail, in old comicbook fashion), and then as he finally reaches the edge of Subspace, he reaches "the world of limitless dimensions." The continuity between both statements, as I see it, would indicate that the latter statement refers to spatial dimensions indeed, and this is supported by how in a later venture to the same Crossroads, he describes it as a "juncture of many dimensions" in a context tied to spatial dimensions (And by how control of the Negative Zone is directly equated to control over dimensionality, later on)

As said prior, I don't really think of the idea that the Crossroads intersect all realities as mutually exclusive with the idea that those scans are referring to spatial dimensions. To reiterate: Dimensionality is obviously a feature of the universes, and since the Crossroads are the single realm where all these universes meet, it naturally borrows from the dimensionality of each of them.

Also I don't quite understand what all this fuss about universes within universes is all about. I don't think it's realistic to suggest that "Macroverse" in the context of that specific Silver Surfer comic really refers to the realm introduced a while later. For the matter I don't get the "flowery language" argument that I've seen, either. For reference, here's a statement from the same run, where said universes are described as holograms folded inside of more holograms, with the character in question even referring to them as created by consciousness.

 

[Deagonx]

Oh come on
Marvel and DC are getting downgrades?

Thank you for this crucial contribution to the ongoing discussions.

 

[Vasco]

Can you clarify which half was referring to which scan?

When ever I mention Microverse I meant Surfer scan but when I mention Worlds(planets) I mean Dormammu scan.

Also it doesn't matter really Worlds within worlds even if in context of universes with universes don't necessarily grant Tier 1.

 

[Antvasima]

We did use this argument, but only this. However, I don't understand how it proves tier 1 civilians?

If the base level for the setting contains realities that are qualitatively inferior within it, the superiority and tiering for said base level would automatically apply for ALL the being within it that share its nature, not just the specific characters that you wish to upgrade. Hence, your argument here is explicitly against our fundamental wiki scaling rules.

 

[Transcending]

Your "counters" are not pertinent. We know that Sama-D's description was explaining the relationship between the "macroverse" "equiverse" and "microverse"

How do we know this and if this is the case, why would he refer to numerous universes and not just two(equiverse and microverse)?

and we know what this relationship looks like in the context of this comic.

Doesn't matter what the relationship is, when it has been retconned. Would you use Mandrakk's FC origin when discussing FC related things? And the relationship was stated by Surfer which BT addressed.

We know that the relationship between the equiverse and macroverse is the same as between the microverse and equiverse, which means that this "dream" language is figurative.

Sama-D never once mentioned the Microverse or equiverse, only SS did, and SS referred to it in separate contexts than Sama-D.

The fact that Marvel's cosmology is composite does not mean we can take things out of its original context. We will not reinterpret Silver Surfer with a version of the microverse written in different comics just so we can take this "dream" language literally when it clearly was not.

Then can you explain how the Microverse went from a subatomic universe to a parallel one, to a subatomic one again, and then parallel? Can you provide a coherent timeline?

 

[Transcending]

I will respond to future arguments tomorrow but-

If the base level for the setting contains realities that are qualitatively inferior within it, the superiority and tiering for said base level would automatically apply for ALL the being within it that share its nature, not just the specific characters that you wish to upgrade. Hence, your argument here is explicitly against our fundamental wiki scaling rules.

We were never told the base reality contained universes qualitatively inferior to it. The universes go upwards.

 

[Deagonx]

As above. Controlling space itself, pretty much. In that context, Doom was, as said, linking control of the Negative Zone with absolute control over space that, added to mastery over time, would give him full domain over spacetime. I say this because obviously dimensions and space synonyms, when it comes to physical places

I can see that, I'm just not sure how to tier it. In this context, given the ongoing discussions about infinite dimensions in the negative zone, do you feel that this power would be Tier 1?

Also I don't quite understand what all this fuss about universes within universes is all about. I don't think it's realistic to suggest that "Macroverse" in the context of that specific Silver Surfer comic really refers to the realm introduced a while later. For the matter I don't quite understand the "flowery language" argument that I've seen, either. For reference, here's a statement from the same run, where said universes are described as holograms folded inside of more holograms.

So the "holograms" thing is pertaining to a different concept entirely. In that portion of the run, Silver Surfer is literally hooked up to a device that has him trapped in deep layers of mind-universes. What we're discussing is about Sama-D's statement in the Macroverse, which is not part of the dream universes Silver Surfer was trapped in. Surfer actually directly states upon entering the Macroverse that it isn't a dream, because at this point he finally escaped the device and as a result the villain sent him to the Macroverse and Alicia to the Microverse, which was described as a micro-universe within the main universe (the Equiverse). Sama describes the relationship between the Macroverse, Universe, and Microverse as being dreams within dreams, but we know this isn't literal because they use space ships to travel between these realms, and the microverse explicitly described as being a micro-universe within the universe.

This argument started because they would not accept the obvious fact that the Microverse and Macroverse are clear opposites, and that the Macroverse contains the Universe in a manner that directly parallels the universe containing the Microverse, and that this relationship clearly isn't dream-like.

So to answer your question: Yes, I would say that. The relevant scene itself starts with Reed entering a 4-dimensional reality (And narrating that and every other detail, in old comicbook fashion), and then as he finally reaches the edge of Subspace, he reaches "the world of limitless dimensions." The continuity between both statements, as I see it, would indicate that the latter statement refers to spatial dimensions indeed, and this is supported by how in a later venture to the same Crossroads, he describes it as a "juncture of many dimensions" in a context tied to spatial dimensions (And by how control of the Negative Zone is directly equated to control over dimensionality, later on)

As said prior, I don't really think of the idea that the Crossroads intersect all realities as mutually exclusive with the idea that those scans are referring to spatial dimensions. To reiterate: Dimensionality is obviously a feature of the universes, and since the Crossroads are the single realm where all these universes meet, it naturally borrows from the dimensionality of each of them.

I recognize the possibility of it, but I have to say my personal assessment is that it's a bit generous. If I had to vote, my vote would be no, but I am not staff so my view on the matter is somewhat moot. I defer to what the staff ends up agreeing upon.

 

[Transcending]

@Ultima_Reality being based like always

 

[Vasco]

Page 9 already, eh.


As above. Controlling space itself, pretty much. In that context, Doom was, as said, linking control of the Negative Zone with absolute control over space that, added to mastery over time, would give him full domain over spacetime. I say this because obviously dimensions and space synonyms, when it comes to physical places


That specific scan, as said prior, only serves to prove that the "juncture of many dimensions" shown in Fantastic Four Unlimited was indeed the Crossroads of Infinity. My focus here is mainly on the scan from Fantastic Four #51, where Reed mentions "the world of limitless dimensions."

So to answer your question: Yes, I would say that. The relevant scene itself starts with Reed entering a 4-dimensional reality (And narrating that and every other detail, in old comicbook fashion), and then as he finally reaches the edge of Subspace, he reaches "the world of limitless dimensions." The continuity between both statements, as I see it, would indicate that the latter statement refers to spatial dimensions indeed, and this is supported by how in a later venture to the same Crossroads, he describes it as a "juncture of many dimensions" in a context tied to spatial dimensions (And by how control of the Negative Zone is directly equated to control over dimensionality, later on)

As said prior, I don't really think of the idea that the Crossroads intersect all realities as mutually exclusive with the idea that those scans are referring to spatial dimensions. To reiterate: Dimensionality is obviously a feature of the universes, and since the Crossroads are the single realm where all these universes meet, it naturally borrows from the dimensionality of each of them.

Also I don't quite understand what all this fuss about universes within universes is all about. I don't think it's realistic to suggest that "Macroverse" in the context of that specific Silver Surfer comic really refers to the realm introduced a while later. For the matter I don't get the "flowery language" argument that I've seen, either. For reference, here's a statement from the same run, where said universes are described as holograms folded inside of more holograms, with the character in question even referring to them as created by consciousness.

Can you send the scans and issues of the things you've said here, I want to read them personally.

This thread doesn't make me accept people's words blindly.

 

[Deagonx]

Sama-D never once mentioned the Microverse or equiverse

Yes he does. Sama-D is the character Surfer meets upon entering the Macroverse, and it is Sama-D who explains the concept to Surfer. He says "This particular universe contains your universe." This is the equiverse. The equiverse, as we know, is Surfer's universe and it contains the Microverse. Thus, the Macroverse contains the Equiverse which contains the Microverse. Other scans from this run clearly indicate that this relationship is the same across these three realms, and further indicate that it isn't dream like at all.

Would you use Mandrakk's FC origin when discussing FC related things?

If it were pertinent to interpreting something, then yes. Even if we agreed to rewrite this comic in the context of what other comics have said about the Microverse, that still wouldn't result in us choosing to take the dream statement literally. At best, we would just reinterpret the Macroverse as being a parallel reality, not a hierarchical greater world that contains the Equiverse the way that the Equiverse contains the Microverse.

We were never told the base reality contained universes qualitatively inferior to it. The universes go upwards.

Surfer literally calls the Microverse a "Microuniverse."

Then can you explain how the Microverse went from a subatomic universe to a parallel one, to a subatomic one again, and then parallel? Can you provide a coherent timeline?

Sure: The writers didn't care. These aren't changes that happened in the actual fictional world. Trying to imagine this as a series of cosmological changes that happened in real time like a DC Crisis event is a red herring. That's not what happened. Authors just ignored or did not know about the previous writings about it. DeMatteis clearly thought the Microverse was a tiny universe within the main universe, and wrote the Macroverse as the opposite of that, a larger universe that contains the Equiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that the Negative Zone has repeatedly far more prominently been explicitly stated to be a regular-sized universe, just one composed of anti-matter, including within the stories that I linked to in a post above;

Given that mathematics allow higher-dimensional structures to intersect with lower-dimensional ones;

Given that this fits with that these nexuses all allow transportation across the entire multiverse;

Given that upgrading all universes to be infinite-dimensional would completely mess up our scaling for all current tier 2 characters;

And given that such an enormously extreme change in Marvel's cosmology must be extremely consistently adapted and officially endorsed by Marvel's editorial department, given how completely incoherent the setting as a whole is due to its around 84 years of history, several hundred independent writers, and over 100,000 stories;

I think that we should simply use Occam's razor, and consider the nexuses to simply intersect with lower 4-dimensional universes such as the Negative Zone, but definitely not that we should irresponsibly hand out enormous and massively destructive all-encompassing High 1-B upgrades to a large part of our featured Marvel Comics characters without taking into account that this verse is not remotely as consistent as ones penned by a single author across a single ongoing storyline.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that the Negative Zone has repeatedly far more prominently been explicitly stated to be a regular-sized universe, just one composed of anti-matter, including within the stories that I linked to in a post above;

Given that mathematics allow higher-dimensional structures to intersect with lower-dimensional ones;

Given that this fits with that these nexuses all allow transportation across the entire multiverse;

Given that upgrading all universes to be infinite-dimensional would completely mess up our scaling for all current tier 2 characters;

And given that such an enormously extreme change in Marvel's cosmology must be extremely consistently adapted and officially endorsed by Marvel's editorial department, given how completely incoherent the setting as a whole is due to its around 84 years of history, several hundred independent writers, and over 100,000 stories;

I think that we should simply use Occam's razor, and consider the nexuses to simply intersect with lower 4-dimensional universes such as the Negative Zone, but definitely not that we should irresponsibly hand out enormous and massively destructive all-encompassing High 1-B upgrades to a large part of our featured Marvel Comics characters without taking into account that this verse is not remotely as consistent as ones penned by a single author across a single ongoing storyline.

@DontTalkDT @AKM sama @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @LuciferX

I would greatly appreciate some help here so virtually all of our Marvel Comics scaling is not irrepairably destroyed completely.